IMO, if you went to a second tier college outside the top 25, an MA from a top tier school will pique interest and might be of value, e.g., London School of Economics or Kennedy or Woodrow Wilson or Hoover. If you went to a top college, however, the added value is minimal. If you achieved an MA and BA in four years, then you’d also attract interest. Cost should be an issue as well. Regardless of school, don’t saddle yourself with high debt.
Just jumping in her to reiterate the point about how very much it matters WHEN people graduated. I can find very few lawyers who graduated over twenty years ago who dissuade people from going to law school, acquiring a masters beforehand, or going to law school “just because.” Far more prevalent are the lawyers for whom it all worked out, and they blithely assume that not much has really changed.
Among my generation, ie those who have graduated in the past ten years, I’m hard-pressed to find many people who do not take a “careerist” approach, ie if it doesn’t pay for itself, don’t do it.
As a final thought: I LOVE learning. But at this point, I hate academia - hate how overpriced it is, how it implies that the only real “learning” that happens is inside a classroom on a campus, going to school full time. (I exaggerate, but only slightly.) It is beyond ridiculous to imply that dissuading someone from spending gobs of money on a credential means that they don’t “love learning,” and ignores the fact that even people who love learning need to pay bills.
Ariesathena, Seattle, Demo and Cranky, good points all. We probably agree on a lot more than is at first obvious. It is unfortunately all too apparent that there are outstanding law graduates who are unable to find jobs right now, especially in firms. And I’ve said on many other threads that significant debt should be avoided whenever possible, especially for a professional degree in an area in which the immediate outlook is grim.
I was a typical middle class B+ student who went to an LAC. I worked hard there and was fortunate enough to obtain a Fulbright scholarship to do an MA abroad. Came back to the US, worked for two years to save tuition money for State U law school. Grandfather died and left a small bequest that partially covered my third year. At the end of it all had only a very small undergrad loan, and that was paid off in 5 years. Although I wasn’t at the top of my law class, a statewide appellate court judge was intrigued enough about my background to put me on his staff for 3 years, which subsequently opened many doors.
My point in relating this “largely meaningless” first-hand experience is that the path to career success isn’t one-size-fits-all. Yes, there has been a Great Recession. Yes, the outlook for JDs is dismal. Yes, there is an “opportunity cost” in graduating from law school at 29, instead of 25. But things weren’t all rosy back the 80’s. Interest rates in the Carter years reached into the double digits, but people managed. The economy suffered during the gas crisis, the stock market dove in 1987. When “L.A. Law” became a hit TV show in 1986 there was a spike in applicants to law school, and a subsequent glut of lawyers. I was fully aware of these challenges, but I didn’t let them dissuade me from pursuing further education.
Despite the current situation, Fulbrights are still offered, people can still work for a few years before going into a grad program, and grandparents - unfortunately - still pass away. Even in 2015 I would do it all over again the same way. One can be career-focused and still seek out opportunities that are not quite the norm, but are still cost-effective.
Not really since, to get into one of those primo programs such as LSE, one needs top grades and recs from any undergrad, regardless of whether it is tippy top. But with top grades and recs (and corresponding LSAT score) the T14 becomes easy with or without an MA.
And I’d add a JD can preclude you from many jobs? As an example, our company has had plenty of JDs apply to advertised jobs. Even tho the JD applicant may have some relevant experience, the extra degree is nearly always a blocker to get to the interview stage. We just don’t want to waste our time training someone who is just biding his/her time looking for a real legal job.
midwest dad: don’t forget that many state public Unis have now raised their LS tuition to private school rates. Yes, there are still some states with low cost programs, but tuition at the UC’s for example are nearly $50k/yr; UC Davis is $47k for tuition/fees instate. Total instate cost at Boalt is $73k/yr. With middling’ GPA, that means a LOT of debt with very low chances of landing a legal job upon graduation.
The landscape has changed. Period.
In-state tuition for one full academic year, fulltime:
U of Nebraska-Lincoln Law School $14,479
West Virginia University Law School $18,234
Florida State University Law School $20,632
LSU Law School $20,997
Penn State Law School $21,088
U of Alabama Law School $21,320
UNC Chapel Hill Law School $22,215
Texas Tech Law School $22,367
Cleveland-Marshall Law School at CSU $23,816
U at Buffalo Law School $23,986
Period.
Yes, but using Nebraska as an example, the cost per year(calculated at 9 months) if you live independently is $30,844/year. That’s pushing 100K for your JD, and you will be pretty much limited to Nebraska for finding a job(per aba numbers 90 of its grads went to work in Nebraska; the next highest was 4 in Colorado. Of a class of 124, only 82 were employed in full time long term jobs where a JD was required .http://law.unl.edu/documents/career_services/aba_employment_summary2013.pdf)
But enough of the cherry picking; you ignore all the expensive state schools and fail to include the cost of living. For all the schools you’ve listed the cost of getting the degree would be 100K+.
And for schools like(all in-state tuition listed): Rutgers($44,085/year http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/admissions-financial-aid/tuition-fees)
Ohio State-more than 40K http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/admissions/jd/scholarships-financial-aid/loan-assistance/
University of Washington almost 50K http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/admissions/jd/scholarships-financial-aid/loan-assistance/
If you’re from out of state at any of the above, tack on some serious additional $$$.
After reading #22, I thought we might have some areas of agreement. After reading #24, it’s clear we don’t. You clearly ignore the real cost for most students as well as the fact that most of them will no doubt have student loans from college.
OP, like most high school students, has no real comprehension of what the financial costs of college and graduate schools are. Aries states it pretty clearly: even law students need to pay the bills. That’s what OP should be addressing first.
@crankyoldman We still do have areas of agreement.
Look, I’m only pointing out that residents in those ten states have reasonably priced opportunities to attend law school, if they want. Nothing more, nothing less. And I’m not ignoring anything. You want to go to Boalt Hall? Fine, pay your $73,000. You want to go to University of Michigan Law School? Pay your $49,784 in-state. But in most states there are much cheaper alternatives, if you can get in. That is all that I am saying.
Tuition at my State U law school is currently $29,660. What was that in mid-1980s dollars, when I went? About $13,400. So when @bluebayou insists that “the landscape has changed, period,” well, yes and no. Of course the landscape always changes. But maybe not quite so much as more recent graduates like to think, at least in some areas. In real dollars, state U law school isn’t all that much more expensive now than it was back then.
As for where State U Law School graduates work. Yes, I took the bar in my state and worked there for 5 years afterward. But subsequently worked in OH, TX and England. Your first job out of any program doesn’t necessarily dictate where you will remain. I’d look at the statistics right out of law school, and then those 20 years out.
The “real” cost: Again, not ignoring this. You have to live and eat whether you are in school or not. In my case, I had an apartment initially, but moved back home midway through 2nd year to save on costs. I realize not everyone can do this. But I made conscious choices so that I could do this. I chose to go to lower cost State U law school. I stayed close to home so that I could have a back-up, if needed. Contacts from growing up made it easier for me to find part-time work to help with costs.
Regarding the student loans from college. Work for a few years to pay them off. Or go to state U, work part-time, and keep them to a minimum to begin with. I’m not ignoring them. Of course a substantial undergraduate loan from attending an elite LAC full-pay would limit your options afterward. I recognize that.
We budget for everything in our family, as my parents did. No one should live beyond their means. But equally so, it is a shame, IMO, when people throw up their hands, say that things are really bad now, the landscape has changed, blah, blah, blah, and are willing to forego creative, outstanding opportunities because of “the enormous cost run-up of school tuition.” When you work hard, actually study the landscape, plan well, and choose well, great opportunities are still out there.
Finally, I’m not asking anyone out there to agree with me on this. I am only presenting one person’s point of view, and one person’s experience.
This really is approaching a “don’t confuse me with the facts” argument. You don’t agree that there has been a massive run-up of school tuition, way above and beyond the rate of inflation? You don’t agree that the legal market has contracted? You don’t agree that getting a law degree is, at many schools, problematic in terms of getting a job(e.g.one of the schools you recommend Cleveland State had a graduating class of 159 in 2013; at 9 months after graduation, at least 23 were still unemployed)?
Instead you mention “outstanding opportunities.” What does this mean? Where are these outstanding opportunities?
And everything and everyone who disagrees with you is “blah, blah, blah”? Seriously? So your advice, in the current job market is “work hard” “be creative” “study the landscape” and other bland aphorisms?
I can cite statistics, I can cite anecdotes, I can direct you to the ABA’s own numbers-but it’s clear you’ll believe what you want to believe and give advice accordingly. You’re living in a legal market that doesn’t exist and hasn’t existed in a generation.
…
My post #24 is entirely factual.
I cited the cost at my state U law school. The run-up has not been “massive,” when inflation is taken into account. And borrowing costs are much lower today (even though I don’t recommend borrowing, if it can be managed by working for a few years first) than they were in the 80’s. These are facts, but you can interpret them in any way that you wish.
Where are the outstanding opportunities? The person who goes to law school, then graduates and goes to work for an NGO that seeks to reduce human trafficking, for example.
I think you are actually the one who wants me to agree with you. I think you want me to agree that Rutgers may be your only option at $45K a year, that you won’t get a job after you graduate, and if you do you’ll be stuck in NJ for the rest of your career, you’ll be $200K in debt; and, by the way, don’t listen to any dinosaur who tries to suggest that it doesn’t have to be that way with careful planning because those are just “bland aphorisms.” No, I won’t agree to that. But likewise, I am not asking you to agree with anything I am saying, either.
The question is: how high are the OP’s ju-co grades?
Yes, those NGO jobs are there for the taking, as just about anyone can get one. But why don’t you cite the fact that President Obama is a lawyer? That really is an outstanding opportunity for one who works hard, studies the landscape, explores his/her options, networks, makes wise choices and pulls oneself up by their bootstraps. Did I miss anything? I seem to remember that he walked uphill both ways to elementary school.
No, it’s clear you’ll cite no facts to support your arguments(and in my book, as your law school’s tuition is now more than double what it cost when you attended, that’s quite an increase, but why quibble?), so there is no point of persuasion or agreement.
But I do have to ask-what part of #24 was entirely factual? The “blah, blah, blah” part? Or the “{W}hen you work hard, actually study the landscape, plan well, and choose well, great opportunities are still out there” part? It might just be easier to recommend that all law school applicants read Horatio Alger novels.
Post 24 is entirely factual.
To it I’ll add CUNY law school $13,802; UMiss law school $13,488; BYU law school $11,280 LDS/$22,560 non-LDS; Temple Univ Law School $20,462; U of Dist of Columbia Law School $10,620; U of Ark-Fayetteville Law School $6,835; NC Central Durham law school $11,387; Southern Law Center, LA $10,620.
So yes, you are correct that tuition at some law schools has risen dramatically. But it is also correct that tuition at some other law schools remains relatively reasonable, at a price people can afford with careful planning and by working for a few years before entering. You and Demo cite Boalt Hall and U of Washington for the run-up, but when I cite lower cost alternatives you say I am ignoring reality and I am citing “no facts to support [my] arguments.”
And, yes, I accept–and embrace–your statistic that 14% of graduates from CSU law school remained unemployed 9 months after graduation. 86% are employed.
Law school applicants can read whatever novels they want, Horatio Alger or otherwise. And I’m happy (and proud) to acknowledge that President Obama is a lawyer, as was Bill Clinton, but not GW Bush. Don’t know what this has to do with anything, though.
I’m not quite sure what it is about my responses that is eliciting such a spirited exchange!
Hmmm…it might have something to do with the quality of the fact-free advice you’re giving. For example, you now recommend Southern University Law Center in LA, with its 206 member graduating class in 2013, of whom 61 were unemployed at 9 months per the ABA . I’m no mathematician, but I believe that works out to 30% being unemployed. Yes, a ringing endorsement for attending law school.
^ “86” % are “employed”? Law schools rig the statistics by using school-funded fellowships and non-JD required jobs to up those statistics. I would be wary of relying on those stats.
Anyway, both MAs and JDs cost a lot of money. Are your parents paying for the entire thing? If not, I would think carefully before doing either one.
Also, regarding job prospects, outside of the Top 13 or 14 law schools, I probably wouldn’t go to law school unless it was fully paid by someone else. And I wouldn’t pay sticker for any law school these days, including Yale.
And let’s not forget that MWD is now also endorsing North Carolina Central University LS: class of 2013 had 169 graduates, and per the ABA 80 were unemployed. I wonder if he’s embracing that statistic, of nearly 50% unemployment?
I see no advantage in getting an M.A. prior to going to law school, unless it’s in a program that is (1) consistent with your proposed career path and (2) you’ll have great grades, perhaps to make up for undergrad (if undergrad GPA is an issue).
@crankyoldman I am not “giving advice.” I did not “recommend” Southern University Law Center or NC Central any more than you “recommended” Rutgers (post #25) or @bluebayou “recommended” Boalt Hall (post #23). I presented some costs to refute the notion that there has been a “massive” run-up in all law school tuition costs. Anyone considering a graduate degree should do their due diligence, study the outcomes of any school they are considering, and not take on a lot of debt.
You have said (post #3), “Having a Master’s degree, in and of itself, is no advantage at all . . . if you want to be a lawyer, just apply to law school.” Is this “advice?” Is it “supported by facts?” I would say that it falls more on the side of a personal opinion, than it does on actual “advice,” but that’s just me. In any event, you have the prerogative to offer advice or opinion.
What have I said in this thread? I have suggested that, in my opinion, a postgrad degree in addition to a JD can be a positive for some people (but not all people), especially if it is in a STEM field and can be done without incurring debt. I have given a personal example. And I have said how I, personally, was able to manage the costs. Nothing more and nothing less.
You said (post #19) “A graduate degree that could be had very cheap 35 years ago is now pretty outrageously priced.” I offered facts to show that isn’t always the case.
Yes, unemployment/underemployment is an issue, and more at some schools than others. I acknowledge that point. You win, okay?
But is any of this a sufficient reason for OP, or anyone else for that matter, not to pursue a desired path if they plan responsibly, make themselves aware of the pros and cons, and can afford it? No, I don’t think your reasons are sufficient. Excellent lawyers, with a variety of experiences, will always be needed, whether as President of the United States or working for an NGO. This is a profession to be proud of, IMO, and I would not dissuade anyone from going into it, as long as they go in with their eyes open. And I would not presume to suggest that a straight BA into JD is the only path that makes sense.
Lawschooltransparency.com has some better job stats than USNews.
I don’t think an “MA” encompasses STEM though. Wouldn’t that be an MS?
Also, most MAs are just for profit scams by universities.
I think the best option is to do an BA/BS, then work for a few years, maybe in law as a paralegal, then decide whether you want to pursue a JD.
Sorry MWD, you can’t have it both-really all- ways. You cite stats to support your argument, then just as quickly run away from them. And you intersperse your 'facts" with periodic homilies about landscaping, etc etc. You also mis-read things pretty regularly; I cited Rutgers as proof that even in-state tuition is expensive. You counter with what a bargain North Carolina Central is. So do you believe it is a bargain? Would you recommend it “eyes open?” Under what circumstances would you recommend someone attend NCC? If you can’t think of any, why did you list that school?