Then that kid may not want a most competitive college where there’s an expectation of engagement and interaction.
That simple.
Fine preparation for lots of other good colleges.
Btw, I have not said miniscule.
Ya know, there are only so many seats available. Not every wannabe is going to get into a tippy top. Those who do are selected because the college sees the promise, on many levels, as they define it. There really isnt room for speculation on how some feel it “should” be. That’s futile and frustrating. Goes nowhere.
It isn’t about kids we posters like or abstracts about who’d make a great X, post college. Not soft and fuzzy.
It’s a holistic vetting for an admit to that college, which will choose the kids they want.
I used the Coca Cola competition as an example, to QM. They don’t spoonfeed a formula or checklist. But if you look at the finalist pool, take the time, it’s clear to me what characteristics, what full combo, can get a kid that far.
If a kid is set on applying for that, he can certainly lean back, tout his stats, leader titles, and hours of vol service, write any esssy he thinks is ok, assume they’ll just look at minimum qualifications, then throw darts.
Or he can lean in, do a little research, try to learn what matters, self assess, make his best presentation. That’s not the crapshoot mentality.
And which of those do we suppose Coke is looking for?
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Let’s move past the back and forth conversation between 2 or 3 users. I you all want to continue the conversations amongst yourselves, please do so via PM.
@skieurope , I actually very much enjoy reading this conversation and chime in where applicable. I think other readers do too. Can we keep this? The posters participating on this thread have been among some of the most well-read and informative of any I’ve seen. Their perspectives are intelligent and a great resource for others.
I have not deleted anything, but the conversation can’t just go around in circles, since at any moment, I can see the next comment being “Jane, you ignorant…”
Ski- If you check the posting history of QuantMech, Lookingforward, Mom2aphysicsgeek, dfbdfb, etc. I would be shocked if you found a single instance of any of them being abusive to another poster. I have strong opinions (duh) and can’t recall ANY of them being disrespectful to me even though I know they sometimes disagree with me (and sometimes take issue with my tone.) I’ve learned a lot from all of them.
(Some of us treasure our real time intro to the Jane comment and remember what it mocked. But it quickly became just a poke, a laugh, a shorthand, at the time. Nonetheless, I can see your point, ski.)
I have some issue with whether CC chancing is “unethical.” In the end, none of us, whether linked to a U now or in the past, can predict more than, “It’s 50-50, you’ll either get in or not.” You can sometimes see some spark, some broader thinking that makes you hope the kid has great results. But it’s going to hinge on the unknowns, how the app, incl LoRs, comes across and the institutional needs, those wild cards.
So just to look at the superficials in a chance thread isn’t enough. When some share enthusiasm based really only on what’s going on on their own high schools, that’s not a national view. Or not necessarily in line with how the colleges see it.
I can say I find a number of professional blogs misleading and borderline.
If a student says “I have a 2.75 HS GPA and a 22 ACT, so what are my chances for Harvard and University of Mississippi?”, then it is unlikely that his/her chances are 50-50 at these colleges.
I had posed a similar question on another forum but would like to poll this group to @ucbalumnus point.
Specifically, if chancing a student, how much does a 35-36 ACT or 1550+ SAT raise that student’s chances for top 20 colleges in YOUR mind versus similar students assuming these students have acceptable EC, ample rigor, and a high GPA (say 4.0 UW) but no hooks.
I acknowledge that some schools value high stats more than others, but I can’t ignore that stats matter for the colleges even though they love throwing out the word holistic all the time.
35-36 ACT versus what other ACT? (i.e. versus 33, 30, 27, etc. ACT)
Within the realm of academic stats, some colleges are also more or less sensitive to test scores relative to HS GPA. E.g. UCLA and USC appear to be of similar selectivity from a cursory view, but the priority that they place on HS GPA versus test scores is different, as their frosh profiles suggest (UCLA frosh had higher unweighted HS GPA, while USC frosh had higher test scores).
Kayak- if you were to ask me about a high stat kids with solid but not distinctive EC’s and everything else, I think i could be reasonably accurate if we’re talking about Vanderbilt, Emory, Brandeis. Being in the high end of the 90th percentile at those college IS a hook. All things being equal, an unhooked kid (assuming we’re talking about a suburban kid with college educated parents, good school system, etc.) isn’t going to squeak into Yale or Princeton on the basis of a 35 ACT-- again, assuming nothing extraordinary about the kid/application.
UCB, I meant the best we can predict for solid applicants is 50-50. Sorry my wording confused.
@Kayak24 , it helps to try to wrap your head around day after day of top stats kids with rigor and some “good” ECs. This is one reason I advocate understanding the rest the tops look for. The scores need to hit a mark, but that’s not 35-36. This “rest” is often the reason so many top stats kids don’t get the nod, when you look at, eg, the inner admit details S shows.
When chance-me kids say they have strong ECs, I usually wonder what those are. (It’s not just about leader titles or “passions”) When they claim a good personal statement, I wonder how on target. Adcoms at top colleges aren’t just looking at composite, subs matter, depending on possible major. And on CC, we can’t guess how the LoRs will read (and if from the relevant teachers.) Or the interview summary.
It’s ridiculous. If they’re looking for a type, after academic prep, that either comes through in the ECs, writing, and LoRs or not. Including the deadly “Why Us?”
Hence., my position on trying to understand match.
Does any (sensible) OP ever walk away from a Chance Me thred thinking “Oh, randomstranger43 on CC says I am a shoe-in at X University, must be true! I will sleep better tonight!”. Maybe, if the OP takes then time to notice that the responder is a mega senior poster, like ucbalumnus or lookingforward, who through experience have a bit more credibility, the OP can walk away with a bit more confidence at the response being, marginally, more accurate.
But, IMO, Chance Me’s are rarely about assessing the true potential and more often about the OP looking for:
a pat on the back/ reassurance that “Ya done good kid”
an opportunity to brag
a lame attempt to scare the competition.
and for the responder it is indulging in:
idle curiosity or a chance to stroke their own ego in comparison
a chance to flex their “muscle” and show off just how much the responder thinks they know about the admissions process (essentially bragging)
and a pat on the back/reassurance “Awww, ya done good responder you helped someone out”.
I am not saying that Chance Me threds are always about those things, sometimes, OPs are seeking genuine advice and responders are looking to be genuinely helpful. Certainly, reminders to be sure the OP has real, tangible, options or that their choices are financially feasible etc. are valuable. But, if you boil things down to the essence, Chance Me threds are not usually so altruistic and I am not sure that it is necessary to hold the responses to them to some hypothetical ethics bar.I
When chancing someone professionally there definitely is an ethics bar and in my mind the professional has a responsibility to be as realistic as possible.
ucbalumnus has a good point…most responders can, in good faith, say a kids with a 2.5 GPA and a 22 ACT is not going to get into Harvard (most likely, lol) There are more gray areas when you are talking about bubble kids/mid stat kids at mid tier schools. And I know from experience that some senior CC members were dead wrong about my own kiddo’s shot at certain schools.
Kayak, Brown has posted pretty granular breakdowns of their admissions results (maybe not for last year but certainly within the last few years) and the best way to read them is to flip them- note the percentage of Vals who get rejected. That’s how to focus. The difference of 20 points on the SAT or a point or two on the ACT at Brown is relatively meaningless once you have cleared the bar on stats. That’s just not what they’re focused on. In all my years of interviewing at Brown I had exactly one kid who I knew was going to be admitted-- just one- that’s how outstanding he was in every possible way (and first generation college, had taken a Greyhound bus and then two other forms of public transportation to get to me because he didn’t want to “inconvenience me” by suggesting a better interview location). An outstanding young man- I badgered admissions for weeks until someone told me that he was on the admit list and I could stop hounding them!
But the dozens and dozens of others? I always knew who was getting rejected. I had a few surprises on admissions but not many. And the stats were never the issue.
Hopkins is harder and more subtle from what I have seen. I think a true scholar (extremely intellectual, the kind of kid where teacher’s write "this is the most curious student I have taught in 20 years) without any of the other stuff can get admitted and find a home at Hopkins. I’ve seen some of them. I think that’s less true at Brown. But I wouldn’t be encouraging a kid to demonstrate that extreme intellectualism in the way that kids think-- i.e. better grades, higher scores on standardized tests. It’s an intangible and definitely NOT captured in scores (but a kid with a 550 math score who allegedly a math prodigy is going to face a credibility gap for sure).
Are you asking with a particular kid in mind? Start a new thread- if the kid loves Brown, tell me why and maybe I can suggest some other places with more predictable admissions? I wrote a letter last year for a kid in my neighborhood who loved Brown (I knew he wasn’t getting in but he’s a nice kid so why not) but I suggested CMU, where he did get in, and which he LOVES.
I was accepted unhooked to Stanford, MIT and Ivies in spite of having a HS GPA/rank and combined SAT well below the median for HYPSM… type colleges and having ECs that were nothing impressive beyond a regional level (placing well in some regional math contests, math and quiz bowl type competitions between schools, etc.), unless you count video game related accomplishments, which I don’t recall whether I mentioned on the application. I think the biggest reason for the selective college admissions involved taking post-AP courses at a university, much like you described. However, it was more than just the act of taking DE classes. I think the reasons were also relevant, such as demonstrating intellectual vitality, taking advantage of available academic resources in area, what was accomplished in those classes, etc.
I was in the unique situation of being at advanced level because one of my 9th (might have been 8th) grade teachers recognized that I’d do better with independent study at my own pace than going at the class pace. I worked the teacher and my GC to support this, and did quite well while studying textbooks + other material independently instead of going to class, and going at double or triple standard class pace. I also worked with the GC and a nearby university (parents were minimally involved in all of this) to help setup a half-time type schedule between the HS and university where I’d take morning classes in HS, then drive to the university for afternoon classes. As far as I know, nobody form my HS had done anything like this before. The classes I selected at the university weren’t just the usual continuing math sequence to multi-variable calculus and linear algebra. Instead I took several classes in electives for no reason other than they seemed fascination to me. For example, I particularly enjoyed a class called biopsychology and behavioral neuroscience. I also received A’s in all university classes taken during HS. One of my professors mentioned that he was quite surprised and impressed that I was a HS student when I asked him for a LOR and seemed quite enthusiastic to write it.
Lol, Data, that’s the first time I, personally, have seen you note this extra info. Pretty neat. It isn’t just in doing DE, but the way you pursued it, at a time (place?) where it was apparently not heard of. And then the teacher and GC enthusiasm. Nice.
Some posters of the chance threads do need reality checks when they have no obvious safeties in their lists. Some need financial reality checks (e.g. those who need a lot of financial aid but whose lists are mostly out-of-state public universities that do not give much or any out-of-state financial aid or scholarships, or private schools known for poor financial aid).