Ethics of "Chancing" students

Parent Cafe
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I am not aware of any college- even uber liberal ones- which did not have Trump voters and Trump supporters in the last election. I know there were Trump supporters among both students and faculty at Brown- allegedly the most liberal of the liberal institutions.

So again- Quant- I think you are conflating lots of different causes/effects/strands in your thinking. A student who wrote that he or she was an intolerant bigot, hated Muslims, felt that sexual assault was ok if you were famous, and ridiculed a military family grieving for a dead soldier would have difficulty getting admitted anywhere IMHO. It is just too easy to connect the dots these days if such a kid were prone to violence, and via a subpoena, the college had to reveal that yes- in the admissions essay, the student in question wrote about hating Muslims, committing sexual assault, ridiculing the disabled-- that would be very, very very bad for the college. And in retrospect- extremely stupid, and not part of a sophisticated university’s risk management protocol. But just writing about being part of a political campaign? Not risky. Writing about one’s conservative philosophy even at a liberal college? Not a problem. Just don’t start yelling that Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers and Adcom’s can deal with you.

I know very conservative faculty members at some very liberal institutions. They don’t feel marginalized- at least as they’ve described it to me. They write, they speak, they publish, they teach, they attend conferences in their disciplines- and they vote for the candidates they support, they give money to the campaigns they believe in- just like everyone else.

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Of course everyone at 17 reflects his or her context to a great extent! I believe that you made the original reference to students who “get it” or not. What exactly did you mean by that? Perhaps I even agree with you, depending on what it is that applicants do or do not get. I offered an example or two.

I certainly did not mean that students who moved from a small high school to an elite college could not adjust! I meant that I believe that many of the applicants (not necessarily from small schools) are disadvantaged at the application stage and never get in, when they could thrive in the college if admitted.

I know that colleges do read many applications in context. But if there are applicants who don’t “get it” in terms of their high school activities or applications [whatever “it” is], that in itself is probably part of their cultural context, and not in my view a reason to look down on them. It seems to me that you have actual disdain for the students who are “busy counting AP classes, mesmerized by stats, this club title, that fund raiser, or how many vol hours, etc.” That’s contextual, too. They are reflecting their surroundings. It doesn’t make them worse.

I have met a lot of students who went to the single initial CC schools. They are impressive, but exceedingly few of them are staggeringly impressive.

I may still not have expressed my views clearly, but I am trying.

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One more try: I would suspect that in the great number of cases of students who “get it,” [whatever that is exactly], there was an adult or friend somewhere in the student’s background, who “got it,” and conveyed it. Perhaps this just meant pointing the student at a book or activity, and then the student took off from there. In my experience, no one totally “gets it,” while being a tabula rasa.

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We all get that “gets it” gets you in, but who defines “it”. Most of time the AOs are white ladies in their 20-50s who are invariably humanities majors. As a result they have little appreciation for STEM accomplishments.

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I’d LOVE to know where you got this “fact”?

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For what it’s worth, I agree with @QuantMech , but with important qualifications.

Yes, there is a culture of elite institutions, and it is probably a disadvantage in applying to them if you aren’t fluent in that culture, consciously or not, and thus don’t present yourself in the way the culture is most likely to reward. E.g., by bragging too much or too little about one’s own accomplishments, or being too frank about one’s ambitions to become affluent. Or falling into what are considered cliches in Eliteworld, but which in other cultures may be bold, even subversive statements, or perhaps may be pro forma but necessary acknowledgment of social norms.

That said, I think an important part of the elite culture is sensitivity to its own specificity, and a good-faith desire to open up. Hence the programs the Wall Street Journal was reporting on, such as trying to attract more rural kids to Swarthmore. Honestly, I believe a teen Trump coordinator would be extremely attractive right now. Everyone is aware that we are in our own bubbles, and perhaps we ought to listen to a broader range of voices. (Almost literally, no one in my world is a Trump supporter. And that includes plenty of Republicans.) I think East-Coast university admissions committees would jump on a kid who looks like he or she has the smarts and intellectual range to succeed, and who is a passionate Trump backer.

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@OHMomof2 oh come on, we are talking about “gets it”–its a perception, not a survey, And anybody who has made a dozen college visits and talked to AOs can get it :).

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You really think AOs are humanities-studying women who are clueless about STEM accomplishments?

Even if it were true (which it is not based on MY experience with AOs over the years and you seem reluctant to back up) it would be insulting.

As for who “gets it”, @lookingforward uses the term to refer to college applicants, not AOs.

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The Val from one of my city’s HS’s a few years ago thought he was a lock at Dartmouth because he played varsity tennis, had a 4.0 average, and had volunteered at the local animal shelter a few times.

Is THIS what you’re all referring to in terms of “not getting it”? I knew the kid- just a lovely guy. Absolutely nothing about him (besides good grades and a mean backhand) screamed success. Nothing about him hinted to a latent intellectual curiosity. Probably never read a book unless it was assigned since 5th grade. Had no meaningful engagement with the world besides the dog thing. Just a nice kid who didn’t get it (I’m assuming this is what you mean). Not a good enough athlete to play anything besides Club level in college, not enough of an intellect to add anything to a classroom discussion, nice upper middle class parents who only wanted the best for him so they’d been dragging him around to EC’s since he was a toddler.

He blew the cover off the ball at BU btw- was a big man on campus. (not to mix my metaphors too much). So maybe this is what you mean by clueless?

JZD- wow- you ARE clueless. White ladies? That’s hilarious.

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@OHMomof2 I said “little appreciation”, very different from being “clueless”.

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How so @jzducol ? In what ways do they have “little appreciation”? Are you suggesting they favor humanities applicants, or girls, or that they don’t know what USAMO or Intel or Siemens mean?

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Its not a boy vs girl issue. I think most of the discussion during previous few pages would indicate that AOs tend to appreciate a good piece of writing more often than an elegant solution to a math problem. And by extension they probably value poetry awards more than things like USAMO.

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There is no adcom in the country who doesn’t appreciate USAMO.

JZD- time to put your cards on the table and come up with some proof for your somewhat bizarre and “flying in the face of facts” assertions.

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^do you know of any AO that has made to USAMO or higher or equivalent in other STEM? do you know of any AO who can write equally well or better than top admits?

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^ that would be nice.

I know several AOs, as it happens, all are male but one.

Well of course…AOs at selective colleges always get a “good piece of writing” from their applicants in the form of the college essay(s). There’s not a “college app problem set” on most apps (though I’m sure exceptions exist I’d bet they’re few and far between).

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Lol, I’m tempted to say, you either get it or you don’t. Tempted. And, the latter is a huge risk for the colleges that can and do cherry pick on more than stats.

The top colleges are asking you to self match. Show that level of thinking. Again, more than stats. And it’s trivial to think they mean match your social class. If a kid doesn’t know how to self match (which is more than “you have what I want,”) he hasn’t reached far, isn’t thinking sufficiently. “Next!”

Brown’s a good example because they want to see that intellectual curiosity across the board, the willingness to expand beyond your major or limited pre-determined interests, to use the Open Curriculum. (How hard is that to figure out?) Tell them you live and breathe your own narrow interets, and/or the college is just an avenue to your future career aspirations, etc, and you’re in the roughs. That translates, as well, to activities. You either show curiosity, willingess to try new things, test yourself, expand- or not.

Since the animal shelter was brought up, no, that’s not stretch or impact in the community. Nor do you need to cure cancer.

If you insist it’s a crapshoot, a bunch of white humanities ladies…good example of not getting it, not thinking and processing, just assuming, to use my phrase, “I think it, so it’s true.”

That’s not getting it.

The brightest kids out there see more than where their own two feet land them. This surpasses social class or your parents’ educations.

This stereotype about poor, rural, or border kids is deadly and closed-minded. For various reasons, the level of them applying to a tippy top has already got assets. In some cases, the nature of their own upbringing and context empowers them. It’s just so wrong to assume they’re all helpless, hapless bumpkins- and only weallthy kids know the game.

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@OHMomof2 So who are they?

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That’s a lovely thought. But it sounds like just a wishful thinking. Making conclusions based on random guesses.

Not that I wouldn’t want to see a Scholastic medal valued over USAMO. But man. It feels highly unlikely. Those with humanities majors can quickly learn what USAMO means once they become AOs. I just vividly remembered Don Corleone kindly suggesting not to insult his intelligence. :slight_smile:

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Who are who @jzducol ? The AOs that I know that are male?

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jzducol, you go figure it out.