<p>We have an ethical dilemma. Freshman daughter will be getting $19,000 in scholarships/financial aid, which leaves us paying about $26,000 a year -- ouch!! She has won several smallish outside scholarships totaling under $5,000. If we report them to her school they will reduce her financial aid dollar for dollar. We are struggling with whether to decline the scholarships --- which we could really use -- or accept those that will give her a check and not report. Have any of you been in this situation? What have you done? It doesn't seem fair because the college will allow us to borrow $26,000 a year at 8.5 percent interest, but not accept these small scholarships our daughter has earned with her hard work.</p>
<p>Is it just an ethical dilemma? Isn't there a chance your daughter will get in trouble if her school somehow learns of the scholarships?</p>
<p>Iskinner is right. I think in most cases the terms of your financial aid agreement legally obligate you to report the outside scholarships. But from an ethical point of view consider this. I am assuming that it is need based financial aid from the college that is at risk not merit aid. The need based aid is awarded based on the argument that you "need" it. To the extent that your child receives money the college was previously unaware of from any source, e.g. a recently deceased uncle, you "need" that much less money. It's only fair to take it away from you and give it to someone else who "needs" it more.</p>
<p>Also, if any of the need-based aid is work study or loans, the school might reduce these first. That's what our S's school did for his outside scholarship, so we didn't lose grant money.</p>
<p>While Duke isn't as bad for aid as some other schools, it isn't known to be great. My nephew opted to attend University of Colorado, @ Boulder, where he was instate, instead of Duke, because of college costs.</p>
<p>Your daughter is getting almost $20,000 for her education- great!
some of the rest- I assume is room and board- that is a cost that she would be incurring anyway- if she was staying at home or working-</p>
<p>Say $10,000 is room and board
She also can earn about $3,000 summers to pay toward her college expenses
While she may not be eligible for workstudy, jobs on campus are often plentiful and should be able to earn enough for books and personal expenses, as well as she can reduce her book costs by finding used books on amazon/powells/bestbookbuys web sites
Another $3,000 ( assuming reduction of costs as well) from school year job</p>
<p>I would also assume- since she accepted the admission offer, knowing that her outside scholarships were relatively small, that you are prepared to pay for your EFC, which is probably similar to ours- about $14,000.</p>
<p>I don't think, defrauding the school, by trying to get the money for scholarships paid to you, rather than for college expenses is worth it.</p>
<p>One, your daughter will have to be privy to this, is this something you want to teach her, that it is ok to lie, if you benefit?</p>
<p>Two, the scholarship will need to be claimed as income on taxes- the social security number will be linked to it and both the IRS and the donor will have that.</p>
<p>Three, the school can get legal access to your tax records and they are often cross matched- it might take them a while to find inconsistencies, but when they do, Im sure that she doesn't want a black mark on her history or possibly expelled because of it.</p>
<p>I know families make honest mistakes on filling out aid forms.
I have had years when I had to change FAFSA 3 or 4 times!
( sometimes because the school changed things erroneously)</p>
<p>But I think your effort and stress will be better spent trying to illustrate to the Duke financial aid office, why your income makes their package difficult.
Additionally, I know that some schools, especially those that offer merit, also have scholarships that students will be eligible for once they are attending.
So there may be pockets of money that will help, without having to manipulate scholarships
<a href="http://dukefinancialaid.duke.edu/budget_tools.html%5B/url%5D">http://dukefinancialaid.duke.edu/budget_tools.html</a></p>
<p>Are you seriously asking if lying is unethical?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Are you seriously asking if lying is unethical?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In my humble opinion, it's sometimes ethical to lie. For example, sometimes it happens that older workers have a hard time finding jobs because of age discrimination. In such a situation, I don't think it's unethical to lie about one's age.</p>
<p>I had a customer named "Jose" who used the name "Joseph" on his resume. He lied about his name to counter rampant discrimination against Hispanic people. I don't think this is unethical.</p>
<p>For example, sometimes it happens that older workers have a hard time finding jobs because of age discrimination. In such a situation, I don't think it's unethical to lie about one's age.</p>
<p>thats illegal
moreover- if you lie about something as easy to check as your age- what else are you going to lie about?
Lying isn't ok- just because you benefit.</p>
<p>many companies also have quotas to improve diversity, so what sort of discrimination are you talking about</p>
<p>
[quote]
thats illegal
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What's illegal?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lying isn't ok- just because you benefit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
many companies also have quotas to improve diversity, so what sort of discrimination are you talking about
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm talking about age discrimination and race discrimination. And it's very common.</p>
<p>No, it is not OK to lie.</p>
<p>Also, this poster said it best: "To the extent that your child receives money the college was previously unaware of from any source, e.g. a recently deceased uncle, you "need" that much less money. It's only fair to take it away from you and give it to someone else who "needs" it more."</p>
<p>I suppose that if you keep posting the question, someone will agree with you that it's fine to lie and get as much $ as you can. However, you know and I know that you'd be scamming the system.</p>
<p>"It doesn't seem fair because the college will allow us to borrow $26,000 a year at 8.5 percent interest, but not accept these small scholarships our daughter has earned with her hard work."</p>
<p>Your D didn't have to apply for those scholarships since she knew that any $ she earned would be deducted from what the college is giving her.</p>
<p>If what she wanted was to get as much $ as her talents, etc. could get for her, she should have gone to a college where she could have used her talents, grades, etc. to get merit aid.</p>
<p>As an example of when it's ethical to lie: When it would save some deserving person's life. For instance, a former stewardess recently told me about a plane hijacking in which the Arab terrorists asked the stewardess to collect the passengers' passports and tell the terrorists which passengers had "Jewish names."</p>
<p>The stewardess lied and said, "None," and no passengers were killed. </p>
<p>That's an example of ethical lying. The OP's situation doesn't fall into that category any more than does the behavior of parents who lie and hide assets in order for their kids to qualify for more need-based aid than they would normally under the college's calculations. Sure, it's nice to get the extra bucks, but the end doesn't justify the means.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sure, it's nice to get the extra bucks, but the end doesn't justify the means.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think it's a closer question than that. Because colleges engage in unethical conduct in setting tuition and financial aid, including price discrimination, collusion, and dishonoring their ethical obligations as not-for-profits. Which isn't as invidious as race discrimination or age discrimination (or terrorism), but it's still wrong in my opinion.</p>
<p>For example, sometimes it happens that older workers have a hard time finding jobs because of age discrimination. In such a situation, I don't think it's unethical to lie about one's age.</p>
<p>
[quote]
thats illegal
[/quote]
</p>
<p>*
What's illegal?*</p>
<p>sorry I didn't realize that law surrounding hiring and housing practices wasn't known.</p>
<p>I was referring to this
[quote]
Job applicants have legal rights even before they become employees. Under federal law, an employer cannot illegally discriminate in its hiring process based on a job applicant's race, national origin, gender, pregnancy, age, disability, or religion. State and local laws may specify additional protected classes based on factors such as the sexual orientation of a job applicant. Employers must abide by anti-discrimination laws at each stage of the hiring process, from placing a job ad, to interviewing, to the final selection of the candidate to be hired.
[/quote]
so why complicate things by lying about your age or race?</p>
<p>I essentially agree with what everyone has said -- Honesty is the best policy even if a rule is not fair. But in the same vein, are you all going to report the monetary gifts -- often in the hundreds of dollars -- that your child received as graduation presents since this is a form of income?</p>
<p>often in the hundreds of dollars -- that your child received as graduation presents since this is a form of income?</p>
<p>What sort of families do you all have that give hundreds of dollars just to graduate high school?
I thought people are more likely to give Dr</a> Seussbooks or picture frames.
I think if you got hundreds of $ as graduation presents, you can probably afford to notify the college of outside scholarships
:)</p>
<p>Dr. Seuss books?? Is that a joke?</p>
<p>I think it's more absurd to get hundreds of dollars for a birthday, because that happens without any work. Graduating high school, as common as that is, is a an accomplishment, and it's really not that uncommon for some people to get hundreds, if not thousands of dollars (at least where I live) for doing it.</p>
<p>Dr. Seuss books?? Is that a joke?</p>
<p>no it wasn't-when I make jokes theyre funny :D
I gave my D a copy when she graduated high school
I believe it was also the theme of Renn Fayrethis past year ( the festival at Reed College)
and in 2003- it was #4 on what theyr'e reading on college campuses compiled by the Chronicle for Higher Education( supplied by stores serving the following campuses: American U., Brown U., Colorado College, Dartmouth College, Harvard U., Iowa State U., Lawrence U., Montana State U. at Bozeman, New York U., Pennsylvania State U. at University Park, Reed College, Stanford U., U. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, U. of New Mexico at Albuquerque, and U. of Washington at Seattle.)</p>
<p>I don't usually give money- unless I think the recipient really needs it & prefers it.
In an area where it is common to give hundreds or thousands as a gift, what is the rationale?
It seems kind of "common" and doesn't really require much thought or knowledge of the recipient.</p>
<p>
[quote]
sorry I didn't realize that law surrounding hiring and housing practices wasn't known.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know the law pretty well -- I just didn't know what you were referring to when you said "that's illegal"</p>
<p>
[quote]
so why complicate things by lying about your age or race?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Would it surprise you to learn that many companies break the law? And that discrimination is often very difficult to prove? And that without proof, there's usually nothing you can do about it?</p>
<p>Also, note that the main federal anti-discrimination in employment law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964) does not apply to all employers. If the employer has less than 15 employees, it is free to practice certain kinds of discrimination as much as it likes without violating Title VII.</p>
<p>"But in the same vein, are you all going to report the monetary gifts -- often in the hundreds of dollars -- that your child received as graduation presents since this is a form of income?"</p>
<p>Neither son chose to send graduation announcements because both felt that doing so was like asking for gifts.</p>
<p>I don't remember either getting any money -- including from close relatives. I haven't given money to any of my friends/relatives who graduated. Have given some gift certificates to bookstores, however. The most was for $25.</p>
<p>Most of my friends come from professional families, typically have at least one college prof in the family, as is the case with my nuclear family. At graduation parties, I don't remember anyone getting checks or cash. In our circles, that would be considered crass. Gift certificates and books, however, are very appreciated as most of the graduates have been avid readers.</p>
<p>I live in a college town, and high school graduation is regarded by my friends as expected, and not something to give lavish gifts for. For most of my friends and my kids' friends the ceremony itself was important because it marked the end of the kids' really living at home and going to school with their childhood friends. The very elaborate gifts, bashes, graduation trips, etc., were things typically done by the (relatively rare in my community) students who were first gen h.s. graduates or were not planning to go on to college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But in the same vein, are you all going to report the monetary gifts -- often in the hundreds of dollars -- that your child received as graduation presents since this is a form of income?
[/quote]
no and yes ... we will follow the rules. If a gift is over $10,000 (I think this went up) then it will be reported as income because that is the law. Since I doubt anyone in my or my wife's family will give our kids $10,000 for graduating from HS this is a moot question for us.</p>
<p>Why then did I say yes? If our kids receive gifts and they invest them the increase in assets will show up in the next financial aid cycle ... so yes they will be reported. Our kids will not hide any cash under the matress so noone finds out. What they may do, and is within the rules, is spend gifts on items like laptops and other items they may need for college ... and then their assets will not increase the following year.</p>
<p>The discussion we would have in our house is what is the behavior we would want to model for our kids ... and we will land on following the system and living with the consequences. We may also try to change the system but we won't end run it ... and parenthood has made this much easier to do for us.</p>