<p>Actually in that regard I think accountants can do what finance people do but finance people can't necessarily do what accountants do. I do know that for financial analyst positions and the like, most companies require a degree in finance OR accounting and a CFA/CPA in finance is kind of treated as the same thing. However, in accounting, a CFA does not substitute for a CPA so when companies look for Controller or even CFOs, most of these people have CPAs and the companies look for them. I've rarely come across a job posting for these positions (or many other positions) asking for CFA. However, I've come across thousands of jobs asking for CPA. Therefore, I think an accounting degree is better (unless you use your finance degree to become a fund manager, investment banker, or the like). That's my 2 cents.</p>
<p>But usually with a job like CFO, its so high up that experience matters more than a CPA designation you got 25 years ago. I don't think they are looking specifically for an accountant but rather someone who has proven themselves in the financial sector for many years. Case in point, Erin Callahn was the CFO at Lehman and held a JD.</p>
<p>irocktheyellow, Yes you will always find exceptions to almost any general rule;however, there is no question in my mind that accountants can get just about any job that a finance major would get. However, a finance major can not get every job that an accountant would get. Ergo: accounting provides more opportunities....period.</p>
<p>However,with all that said, if you don't like accounting or don't do well in it, you may be much better off majoring in finance. GPA,especially for those hard to get jobs and top notch companies, such as IB, is king.</p>
<p>i have 2 sons, one in college majoring in economics at a liberal arts school, doing very well 3.8 average taking math, physics, and of course econ classes. he's a junior and unsure about where in the business world he may fit in. school does not offer accounting. is he qualified for one of the big 4? </p>
<p>also, my other son is a senior in high school. has taken the toughest classes possible, scored 33 ACT, and leaning towards business. i think accounting may be a good fit, but the 'green eyeshade' image may cloud his judgement. any suggestions? </p>
<p>and finally, with off-shoring lurking in the background of many professions, i welcome your thoughts on how accounting and or finance may be affected.</p>
<p>Rocco100, have him read over this thread especially post number 1. </p>
<p>I certainly can't guarantee that all accounting jobs won't be offshored. Heck, they are even reading radiology reports abroad.</p>
<p>However, there are a LOT of privacy issues issues involved in accounting. Certainly, tax returns and other financial documents can NOT be utilized offshore without the express permission of the client. Frankly, I can't see a lot of companies and individuals allowing this.</p>
<p>Moreover, accountants are strictly liable for competant work and proper reviews of their staffs' work. If staff are in foreign countries , it certainly is a lot harder to comply with this requirement.</p>
<p>Finally, I can't see a lot of foreign schools teaching American Law and American accounting theory. I guess anything is possible if there is enough demand,but I just don't see it happening in the near future.</p>
<p>One thing about offshoring: what I've heard is that managers out of the US really don't like to spend a lot of time travelling to India to deal with local management issues. The other problem is the time-zone difference. If the dollar continues to fall, then the US will be more of an attractive place to hire workers.</p>
<p>post #1 makes a compelling case for selecting accounting, thanks. from other threads it seems that marrying an accounting degree with tax concentration provides a nearly bullet-proof career. but does specialization narrow one's options? the old generalist vs. specialist conundrum. also, is there much travel working for big 4? if so, would a tax specialist not travel as much as someone in audit? and finally, outside of accounting, what do you see as the second strongest 'business' major in college?</p>
<p>Audit folks can travel alot. It is very rare for tax people to travel UNLESS they are litigators.</p>
<p>taxguy, you mentioned earlier that you "can't see a lot of foreign schools teaching American Law and American accounting theory". but they may not have to. i stumbled on an article from my local paper that talks about the push for the US to adopt international financial reporting standards and leave gaap behind. if this happens, what's your take on the accounting industry.</p>
<p>rocco100, I still maintain due to privacy concerns and quality control concerns that you won't see a huge amount of offshoring in the accounting field. I could be wrong ,but that is my opinion.</p>
<p>Look, if you are that worried about offshoring of jobs, have your kid either start their own business or flip burgers. We can never outsource service oriented folks like cooks, waiters, most doctors, litigators etc.</p>
<p>what can you do with a JD/CPA? Tax? Would that be stronger then, say, a MS in Taxation/CPA?</p>
<p>taxguy, how hard is it to work in chicago if i pick up an accounting degree outside the midwest?</p>
<p>Rocco100, no one will be able to answer your question definitely. However, a lot depends on your GPA. I studied accounting in NY but got a job in Florida. The better your GPA and interviewing skills, the better your chances anywhere.</p>
<p>However, partners at firms usually interview in areas that they work. It certainly would be easier to get a job in Chicago if you go to school there.</p>
<p>Our CPA firm tried sending our 1040's "out" for preparation last tax season. It doesn't work that well. Most folks who have their tax returns prepared by a CPA firm usually have situations that are too complicated for H&R Block to handle. The preparers in India only input the information that was scanned and sent to them. We still had to go back through the returns very carefully after they were "prepared" and there were still many open items/questions. We came to the conclusion that it was better, cheaper, and faster to do everything in our office start to finish. </p>
<p>Business returns would be even more difficult to "offshore". Too many questions to ask the client and we certainly woudn't want someone outside our firm sending questions to our client.</p>
<p>Pebbles4562, I completely agree. I can't imagine too many business clients agreeing to having all of their sensitive data sent abroad with no privacy controls.</p>
<p>I disagree taxguy. </p>
<p>At least two of the Big 4 firms are involved in a big outsourcing push, sending work not to a third party but to internally run offices in India. This is a major investment. </p>
<p>Here are some good posts on the topic from people at the Tax Talent boards:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I work in ITS at a B4. No hiring freeze at all, in fact, we still struggle with having enough people to get the work done and are still hiring, both entry level and experienced. </p>
<p>Regarding India, I believe we have about 1,000 people in our India outsourcing operation. In my view, what India does is provide us with a large pool of staff who can do basic things like simple compliance. Their ability to do more sophisticated work is very limited though. In using India people, once I add in the additional cost of oversight of US or Europe based experienced staff or managers, work done in India is not meaningfully cheaper than using local staff. </p>
<p>Are they cheaper than US/Europe staff? Yes, but not by much and, given wage inflation in India, not for much longer. Two years ago we paid $15k USD for a new staff person, and that was below what call centers were paying then. We sold the jobs to candidates based on the opportunity to grow in a profession and join a top firm. Not surprisingly, turnover at the India center has been staggering. We have bumped up wages but they are still inadequate to keep people. Particularly the good people who will take the experience they get with us and go to a company where their really is a career track. </p>
<p>Despite our bluster to the contrary, India outsourcing folks are nothing more than warm bodies to us and, practically speaking, there are limited long term career prospects with us unless they transfer to the regular India practice. </p>
<p>Given wage inflation, turnover, inexperience, and no real way for outsource staffers to gain high level skills, why do we persist with using India outsourcing? 1. A lack of US/European staff. We simply can't hire the number of people we need to get the work done. They are not available in the market. 2. While it is not less expensive to use India outsourcing staff on client assignments, it is less expensive to maintain them if they are not being utilized. This allows the firm to avoid layoffs in the US and Europe if the work flow slows down as we can, as a first option, simply stop sending work over there. This is a benefit of India outsourcing that is only discussed behind closed doors. Yup, India outsourcing is helping create US job security.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Brian, I disagree. The Indian operations are projected to be 20% of all D&T billiable hours in the next 5 years. (tax practice) We have been able to recruit more experienced Indian staff & management by offering various incentives including higher pay/benefits in the recent years. Have you made the trip to "Region 10" as the D&T marketers refer to it - its not "India", its "Region 10". I worked in the NYC office before, no one referred to us as "Region 1". They don't like to say "India" because its obvious that the firm's leadership wants to ship jobs overseas...at an increasing rate. I do not disagree with this approach either...let the world share in the wealth...but I think its important to point out the long term implications. </p>
<p>Yes, you are correct that the more mundane and repetitious tasks are sent to "Region 10". However, these taks were traditionally handled by entry level staff members or interns in the US. With a projected goal of 20% of billables hours to India, I cannot imagine that US recruiting will continue to be high in certain groups. </p>
<p>For some groups including ITS and M&A, they are immune. However, for most tax groups, the increasing presense of Deloitte in India will have a long term impact to US job seekers. I've heard some projections that tax returns will no longer be prepared in the US by 2015. You cannot seriously claim that this won't impact US job seekers. </p>
<p>I understand your point, but respectuflly disagree.
[/quote]
More here:</p>
<p>TaxTalent.com</a> - Career Forum</p>
<p>I won't claim to be anywhere near knowing the true cost savings and success level of the India operation, but I can tell you from an internal PR standpoint this is being pushed very hard as a great initiative for the firm. A target of 20% of billables coming from India is, from some of the information I've heard, a very conservative figure.</p>
<p>I don't know about D&T billing nor do I understand what exactly has been outsourced,but I do know that if they are sending sensitive data to India without the consent of the client, they are opening themselves up to a major lawsuit and probably a class action suit.</p>
<p>To make it a bit more clear, in the Tax Talent posts, the firm Brian (first poster) is referring to is not Deloitte. This other firm and D&T are the two that I know of with major outsourcing operations.</p>
<p>Most clients are aware, if not all (I'm not sure the specific policies on this). And given most large engagments have at least some work being done in India, it seems they are ok with this. </p>
<p>I don't see why they would not be, to be honest. The Indians are employees of the US firm, subject to the same policies and controls as the rest of us. They are college graduates, some sponsored by the firm to receive US MS Tax degrees, and all work is reviewed by US personnel. What's the issue?</p>
<p>aswedc, there are a NUMBER of issues:</p>
<ol>
<li>Privacy: tax returns involve a LOT of sensitive information. The few the number eyes that work on the return, the better to some extent. Sending important data abroad increased the risk of identity fraud and missuse of sensitive data.</li>
<li><p>Quality Control: I honestly don't think that foreign employees can be as closely scrutinized as that of US employees. Perhaps I am wrong,but that would be my visceral reaction if a firm asked me for permission to have returns prepared abroad. Like wise, CPA firms are unconditionally liable for the work performed by their staff. Less quality control can mean more errors.</p></li>
<li><p>Nationalism: Frankly, I want my work done here in the US...Period. Even if I were convinced that it could be done reasonably well abroad, which as I noted, I am not convinced is the case, I want Americans working on my data and not some foreigner. I would pay more for this.</p></li>
<li><p>Questions: Have you ever use foreign "customer service agents?" I have especially for Dell Computers. The service tends to be spotty at best. I have gotten bad information at times and have had numerous problems with understanding their accents. If I have a question regarding my return, who do I talk to to get my questions answered if I can't speak to the preparer!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>So yes, there are lots of issues!</p>
<p>GT as well sends a large amount of work to india.</p>