Expensive LAC v. affordable state school?

College Search & Selection
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<p>We’re talking about the state flagship of Massachusetts here, UMass Amherst. It’s not Podunk U. The OP won’t be adversely affected by his decision to choose UMass over Williams/Swat, provided that he will have a will have a high GPA and a proportionately high LSAT score.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the top law schools will be more merciful toward academically accomplished students from prestigious alma maters even if their LSAT may be mediocre. That is, a Williams grad with a high GPA and a LSAT score in the high 160s may have a better fighting chance at admission to a T14 school over a similarly credentialed UMass grad.</p>

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<p>That’s the wrong question to ask. My point all along is that a student at a top undergrad would not have the same stats if he or she had gone to a lower tier undergrad. </p>

<p>First of all, that student will likely have a lower LSAT score. I do believe that top tier schools prepare students better for the LSAT.</p>

<p>Secondly, that student would have a higher weighted GPA. Why? Because even though GPAs from top tier schools look inflated, the 3.5 (or whatever) GPA from Harvard actually does not fully compensate for the extra rigor and competition. How do we know this? Control for student body strength by holding LSAT scores equal, and then compare GPAs. You can look the study up yourself, but the results interpreted loosely are as follows: for two students with the same LSAT score (and therefore the same “intelligence”), the student going to a lower ranked school will have the higher GPA. Those Ivy League schools that all look grade-inflated, then, are actually grade-deflated. It is harder to get a good GPA at a top tier school, a lot harder if I recall correctly.</p>

<p>But don’t law schools take this into consideration? They do, sort of. Berkeley, for example, creates an academic index for each undergrad institution that sends applications. It then weighs GPAs coming from these schools to put them in their appropriate contexts. I believe all law schools subscribe to this practice, but few release details. As much as law schools would love to weigh a Swarthmore GPA to the extent that it deserves, USNWR does not reward such practice. The USNWR ranking only cares about the GPA number itself, not where it came from, so law schools end up not weighing GPAs from difficult schools as much as they ought to.</p>

<p>To really appreciate the depravity of what I’m talking about, look up some Chance Me threads where an MIT student and/or hard sciences major expects a major boost. Sorry, MIT student, but you’re in the same bucket as everyone else. Expect maybe a .1 or .2 GPA boost, but your stats are more or less compared without context to those of a sociology major from state university. Except for the extremes, like HYPSM students or Phoenix Online University students, students usually do not need to post their undergraduate institution in their Chance Me threads. Actually, law school admissions is one of the few types of admissions where you can go onto an online database and have your chances predicted through a formula involving just GPA and LSAT. It’s sickening stuff, but it’s very real.</p>

<p>All in all, if going to a lower ranked school will result in a higher GPA and a lower LSAT, what is the total effect on law school admissions? I say it’s a wash. The higher GPA and the lower LSAT cancel out. You may disagree, but please disagree for the right reasons.</p>

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<p>I am trying to figure out what “most prestigious” LAC could have offered you admission already on any basis other than ED? in which case, you made a binding agreement. I guess you can break it for financial need, but it seems like you would have been aware of this from the start. </p>

<p>I feel badly that you cannot afford your first choice school, but I have to say I am appalled by the number of posts on this site by people who want to break their ED agreements because of the insufficient financial aid offered. The schools make it very clear that ED should not be undertaken if the decision is to be contingent on the financial package.</p>

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<p>James - Interesting analysis. It runs counterintuitive to anecdotal logic, since not all law school applicants are hard science majors from MIT and probably a good number are sociology majors from Brown.</p>

<p>But accepting for the moment that “going to a lower ranked school will result in a higher GPA and a lower LSAT”–I still disagree for your “right reasons.” Higher GPA and lower LSAT cancel each other out, so the decision goes to tip factors like reputation of undergrad, i.e. prestige.</p>

<p>I’m sure that if you have a 3.9 GPA and 178 LSAT from Podunk U, you have decent chances at getting into a T10 law school–still worse than a 3.9 GPA and 178 LSAT from Brown, but maybe equal to or better than a 3.6 GPA from an elite. However, what are the chances of actually getting such high stats? And if you want to maximize your chances–risk aversion–you should still choose the elite if you can afford it, because near-perfect stats from an elite would trump near-perfect stats from Podunk. Even if the former is more difficult to achieve, you set yourself a de facto upper “limit” by choosing Podunk. (NOTE: May not apply to elite publics or most flagship Us to such a significant extent.)</p>

<p>SDonCC - Actually, the schools make it very clear that applicants dependent on financial aid CAN and SHOULD still apply ED if it is their true first choice. That only full-payers should utilize ED is a myth that the elites have taken pains to combat in recent years. It would be a poor decision to enter an ED agreement expecting FA without having calculated one’s EFC, but such a decision is supported by institutional policy.</p>

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<p>Keilexandra, the choice of major is just a parallel to what I see going on with undergrad institutions: choosing a hard major is recognized and lauded, but is ultimately disadvantaged when it comes to admissions because USNWR rankings simply do not care about anything but the hard numbers. But ignore any mention of majors if you find it distracting; my argument about undergrad institutions can stand alone.</p>

<p>And no, prestige of undergrad should be subsumed under the academic indexing of different tier schools. And even if it were a tip factor, that does not weaken my point much: choosing which undergrad institution to attend makes so little difference as to be virtually negligible, especially against the huge costs that are often associated with the decision.</p>

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<p>Best of luck to you. I know it is hard for a high schooler to imagine how much difference $100,000 makes in a retirement scheme, but trust me - it’s a lot. A great LAC is a wonderful experience, but it is unlikely to make the difference between success and failure in life. I would also consider the fact that you might need help in graduate school - and if your parents have already given up all retirement savings for four years, they are quite unlikely to be able to do that for another four/six/eight years. Go to the state school. You will be a strong student there and will probably have access to honors courses and other things that will work well for you.</p>

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<p>There is nothing wrong with going to a state school. You will find many, many extremely intelligent students there. Research at the large state U’s are usually incredible. </p>

<p>I went to a huge Big Ten State School and had the best time of my life. Made incredible friends, had the great “college experience” and had great academics.</p>

<p>My older son was valedictorian of his HS. Brilliant kid. He applied to my alma mater and I had no problem with it if he attended. I knew it can meet anyones needs. </p>

<p>Not all classes at large schools are big. Yes, many are, but many are not. In my major I don’t think I had more than 30 or so in a class. The huge lecture hall classes were also fine for learning. I had no regrets.</p>

<p>One son is at a private school and the other at a state U. I think they are both getting great educations.</p>

<p>(All in all- save your money. If you make a nice group of friends, you will be happy anywhere!!!)</p>

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<p>Some numbers… 25,000 per year, saved over 4 years will be about $110,000. Let it sit for 15 more (til your parents retire), and it’s about $250,000. (Making some conservative estimates). Now…take your parents’ annual income, reduce it by perhaps a 1/3 since they will probably spend less in retirement, and figure out how many years of retirement you’ve just handed them.
I know plenty of folks who went to good state schools (including UMass Am.) and have done very well indeed, and others who went to expensive private LACs with nothing much to show for it.
Keep in mind that this is not a once in a lifetime choice as well.
You will be fine!</p>

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<p>Choice of major is not a true parallel to prestige, because being a physics major instead of an English major does not imply that the physics major is smarter than the English major. For better or worse, prestige does lead to such a recognition.</p>

<p>In many cases–not this one, but we haven’t been discussing the OP since you made an assertion re: directional state Us–there are not “huge costs” to choosing an elite school. For example, I am middle class and a need-based aid means that my parents will pay about 20k more over 4 years than for our flagship at full price (I would probably receive merit aid, but they would pay for the flagship regardless of that). On what basis do you assert that “choosing which undergrad institution to attend makes so little difference as to be virtually negligible,” ignoring cost?</p>

<p>For a student who is accepted to both an elite school and their state flagship–again, ignoring cost because financial aid CAN make the difference negligible in many situations–it makes no sense to choose the state flagship if their first priority is acceptance to the best possible law school. (I don’t advocate making that one’s first priority, but let’s assume so for the sake of this hypothetical.) If the student cares most about law school, they will not choose a “difficult” major. So let’s compare English majors at Brown and Northern Arizona University, since your assertion has explicitly included directional state Us. At both schools, the theoretical maximum stats would be 4.0 GPA and 180 LSAT.</p>

<p>1) Outcome 1, the student actually manages to achieve max or near-max stats, which is no easy feat. Academic indexing is irrelevant because you can’t exceed an maximum. Which 4.0 GPA implies greater rigor and a “better” (with prestige blinders on) student? --The student from Brown, of course.</p>

<p>2) Outcome 2, the student does not manage to achieve max stats and is merely upper-mediocre, perhaps a 3.5 at Brown and a 3.7 at Northern Arizona. To be the tippy-top requires extreme effort at any school, just as it is difficult to fail out of either Brown or Northern Arizona–academic indexing really only applies to the upper half of the bell curve, because failing is failing and a 4.0 is a 4.0. As you said yourself, aside from the extremes, an easier school will result in a higher GPA but a lower LSAT. So let’s say the Brown student earns a 173 and the Northern Arizona student a 167. (I have no idea what LSAT distributions are like, so I’m making this up as I go.) GPA and LSAT roughly cancel each other out–but this neutralization is WITHOUT academic indexing, since if the 3.5 Brown GPA was indexed to equal a 3.7 from Northern Arizona, the higher Brown LSAT would clearly win out. Either way, Brown still wins.</p>

<p>To the OP, I reiterate: A private LAC education is a luxury. You’re much more likely to receive more direct professor interaction and smaller class sizes with less effort expended, compared to a large state U. Not all classes at large schools are big, but many are, especially in a popular major. Lecture hall classes are “fine,” perfectly adequate for learning–but if you had the choice, why wouldn’t you choose the luxury of a small introductory class taught solely by a professor? (Assuming that small classes and direct interaction is your ideal learning environment.) Honors courses help in rigor, but the majority of your courses are still “regular.” Will you still get a great education? Absolutely. You can get a great education anywhere. But the higher price of an LAC does mean that you’ll have to put in less effort to find that great education, when the ideal environment is the norm rather than the exceptional “honors.”</p>

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And I know plenty of folks who went to good state schools with nothing much to show for it (they might do a master’s at the same state school), and others whose families sacrificed for elite education who made the most of their unique opportunity (earning a prestigious internship, for example, or a full fellowship to an elite grad school). It goes both ways.</p>

<p>The important question–yes, an LAC is expensive, but is it affordable? Is it worth the cost to you; what’s more important, the luxury of the best possible education or the luxury of graduating debt-free?</p>

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<p>From another thread, relating to med school but still applicable to law:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063831930-post38.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1063831930-post38.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And I’m out, having argued here long enough.</p>

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<p>The acceptance rates for transfers at top LACs (and research universities for that matter) are much lower than they are for freshmen. The college board has these numbers on its website. Once you find the numbers, I think you will agree that it is not easy to transfer to the top schools. </p>

<p>There are other things to think about. What if you don’t end up going to med school? What advising do these schools offer (both premed and not)? What track record do these schools have for med school? Have you investigated LACs that offer merit aid? Universities that offer honors programs? What do you want your peers and classes to be like?</p>

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<p>The GPA boost that physics majors receive does not fully compensate for the difficulty of their major.
The GPA boost that Swarthmore students receive does not fully compensate for the difficulty of their school. </p>

<p>That’s all I’m saying.</p>

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<p>We’re talking about people in the OP’s general situation. Read the title. Expensive LAC v. affordable state school; this is a common dilemma, and the price difference usually amounts to ~$100k.</p>

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<p>If we change the subject to affordable LAC v. affordable state school, of course I would tell the poster to go to the elite LAC. However, though I would have many reasons, getting an advantage in law school admissions would not be one of them.</p>

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<p>I see no reason why this must be true. Did you know that for law school admissions, an A+ is counted as a 4.33? Maybe an A+ from Brown is indexed as a 4.5; who knows? And why did you even bring this up? Academic indexing benefits the Brown student, so wouldn’t its absence be reason to go to Northern Arizona, where you can get a 4.0 much easier? By the way, anyone worried about maxing out their GPA: spend more of your time studying for the LSAT because I bet you won’t max out there.</p>

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<p>No, I said aside from the extremes of undergrad institutions (like MIT v. online fraud university), there won’t even be much of an indexing effect. For the large part, your GPA will be taken at face value.</p>

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<p>No. I meant they cancel out after the indexing takes place. The indexing, as I said before, is very minor except for the harshest extremes (extreme as in it’s in doubt whether a school is even accredited, or extreme as in HYPSM). In most cases, the indexing factor, the process whereby GPA context is taken into account, is considered negligible. But the reality is that GPA context varies enormously by institution. The difference, between the enormous differences that exist and the small amount that is taken into account, is the GPA disadvantage of going to a top tier undergrad institution. And I believe that difference is large enough on its own to counterbalance, or even overpower, any benefits that attending the top tier school will confer when it comes to the LSATs.</p>

<p><a href=“I%20have%20no%20idea%20what%20LSAT%20distributions%20are%20like,%20so%20I’m%20making%20this%20up%20as%20I%20go.”>quote</a>

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<p>Why do you seem so personally invested? Sounds like you’re trying to rationalize an ED II decision hehe. Sorry, I did some snooping… I’m a student there, so we might be classmates. It’s a small world, and definitely a small school :).</p>

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<p>colleges3: assuming you have been able to disregard the majority of your thread dealing with Law School admissions, which is not your interest or the subject of your original post…</p>

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<li><p>my opinion after studying the issue of grade inflation and gpa at a public flagship vs. a grade inflated elite private – a person will end up with the same gpa at both institutions. The grade inflation of approx 0.3 is neutralized by the higher competition at an elite private, with the net result being that a 3.6 at Umass is equivalent to a 3.6 at Amherst.</p></li>
<li><p>the resources available at a public flagship, in particular time with professors, collaboration with professors, internship accessed through professors, and recommendations from professors is practically only available to top 10% students, and possiblly only top 5% students, whereas those resources are available to the <em>majority</em> of the elite LAC students. Therefore, the risk of attending the Public Flagship lies in failing to be a recognized standout student… that is a no-man’s land.</p></li>
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<p>UMAss-Amherst is a flagship public university, and although not one of the very best, it is highly regarded in academic circles. Furthermore, Amherst is a fun college town. I would definitely go for UMass, excel there, save 6 figures and go to a top Law school using the money you saved.</p>

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<p>Dunnin, I was not even among the top 25% at Michigan, and I go into Columbia’s graduate Economics program (upon graduation), Kellogg and Cornell’s graduate ILR program (3 years after graduating from college). It obviously depends on the flagship you are talking about. </p>

<p>At flagships like Cal, Michigan, UVa etc…far more than 5% of students have access to good adivising. I would estimate that 15% of students at those schools end up attending top 10-15 graduate programs and another 15% attended top 50 graduate programs. That points to at least 30% of students getting excellent advising and recommendations from faculty. Also, one should bear in mind that only 35%-40% of students at most elite universities, including the three publics mentioned above, end up going to graduate school in the firstplace, so it is safe to say that the majority of students at those public flagships get the advising and recommendations necessary to pursue their graduate education dreams. </p>

<p>I suppose there are flagship public universities and then there are flagship public universities. UMass is obviously not at the same level as Cal, Michigan and UVa, although it is still a highly regarded institution. Either way, I think it is important to not make a sweeping comment about only 5% of students at flagship public institutions receiving good advising. At some public flagships, that number is closer to 75%-85% of those students intending on pursuing graduate studies. There is a huge difference between a mere 5% and a whopping 75%. From my experience, not a single person I knew at Michigan made an unsuccessful attempt at getting to know a faculty member, either through one of their upper level classes in their chosen majors or through a one-on-one research opportunity with faculty, an option a significant chunk of the undergraduate population opts for.</p>

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<p>OP, can you go to UMass and also cross-register for some classes at Amherst? This might give you the best of both worlds.
Does UMass afford the opportunity to work closely with a faculty member, either on an undergraduate thesis or on an independent study of some sort? This could mimic some of an LAC experience AND could lead to excellent recommendations for med school, grad school, or work.
Are there extracurricular activities where the UMass and Amherst students participate together?
Unfortunately for you, the UMass med school is not in Amherst, so you won’t have the opportunity to work with medical faculty or in a lab there during the school year, but could you do this during the summer?</p>

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Let me introduce you to the Five College consortium!</p>

<p>[Five</a> Colleges, Incorporated: Home](<a href=“http://www.fivecolleges.edu/]Five”>http://www.fivecolleges.edu/)</p>

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<p>unemployed Harvard grad > unemployed Amherst grad</p>

<p>Ironically, if the OP ends up going to UMass-Amherst, she can just tell friends and relatives that she goes to school IN Amherst and they’d be none the wiser. :)</p>

<p>To the OP: it’s difficult for us to give you advice for UMass-Amherst vs. “dream LAC” if we don’t know what is your “dream LAC.”</p>

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<p>Alexandre – </p>

<p>I was not that familiar with Umass-Amherst so I just looked it up – it appears to be rated #106 in the USNWR. That indeed is quite different from the Top 30 universities you mentioned – Michigan, Berkeley, UVA… missing just UNC and UCLA in the Top 30 … so you listed 3 of the 5 Top 30 ranked schools that are Public Research Universities.</p>

<p>Grad school adcoms, recruiters, and research opportunities would be quite different for UMass-Amherst (and other similarly situated Public Research Universities not so highly ranked (take for example Oregon State, Arizona State, UC Riverside from my region of the country)… students from these universities would need to truly be at the tippy top of their cohort to be treated equally to students from the middle of their cohort at a prestigious LAC.</p>

<p>So I repeat… at UMass Amherst, the OP would really need to make sure he is in the top 5% or possibly 10% to be exposed to the same opportunities he would as a middling student at a pestigious LAC.</p>

<p>And I take your point that at the three Publics you mention, my top 5% or top 10% number is probably low, and would likely be Top 10-20%.</p>

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<p>IBClass06 – good point about the Consortium in Amherst.</p>