Explanation of how 25% of Harvard have SATs of 1580+. Please Read.

Applying to College
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<p>The 50% SAT range for Harvard is 1400-1580. In another thread, somebody asked how can 25% of the people at Harvard have scores of 1580+. Summary statistics don’t often tell you what is going on. </p>

<p>Consider that in a recent year, there were 683 SAT test-takers nationwide who scored a perfect 1600. Of these, about two thirds applied to Harvard. Of the ones who applied, less than 200 were accepted. The number that I want to use from this information is the 200 who were accepted. Since Harvard has a 79% yield, about 150 actually attended. Harvard has an undergrad population of about 6700, and so it is fair to say that the freshman class has about 1500 students. Therefore, about 10% of the freshman class have perfect SAT scores. Now the difference between a 1580, 1590 and a 1600 is just a statistical anomaly, and so about 10% must have a score of 1589 and another 10% must have a score of 1580. When you add this up, then about 30% have scores of either 1580, 1590 or 1600.</p>

<p>I have three points to make.</p>

<p>One: The summary statistic of 1400-1580 is very misleading. There is no reason to think that the percentage of people having high scores drops off significantly after 1580. It would not be a case where 10% have 1600, 10% have 1590, 10% have 1580, and only 2% have 1570. If 25-30% of the freshman class have scores of 1580, 1590, or 1600; then it is very probable that the entire SAT distribution is heavily skewed toward the high end. I am just making this figure up, but it would seem reasonable to me that well over half of the freshman class have scores of 1550+. Saying that the 50% range is 1400-1580 does not convey this fact, if it is true.</p>

<p>Two: There is no reason to feel bad about your score if you did not get a 1600. There are 1.2 million high school graduates each year. If three of them at your high school said that they have a 1600, then maybe they made a mistake or something. Did you see the score report? (You probably weren’t feeling bad anyway.) </p>

<p>Three: Do you really want to go to Harvard? I mean, it might be nice to go biking with Lance Armstrong this weekend just to say that you had done it. Lance is a nice guy apparently, and he would probably slow down a lot so that you didn’t get too far behind, but do you really want to be pre-med at Harvard? If you don’t get accepted, understand that the competition is tough and there are a lot of other great schools. If you do get accepted, cowboy up.</p>

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<p>Thank you for all that. You definitely did your research. </p>

<p>People should definitely read point 3. I think that's the most important one you made.</p>

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<p>haha when you think of it as 30% having above 1580, that really is kind of frightening</p>

4

<p>
[quote]

The number that I want to use from this information is the 200 who were accepted. Since Harvard has a 79% yield, about 150 actually attended

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</p>

<p>You can't assume that. 80% of 200 = 160, but kids with higher scores might be less inclined to actually attend Harvard (because it's more likely they'll have gotten offers from other top schools as well, including merit aid).</p>

<p>Consider that at Brown University, students who were NOT in the top 10% of their class matriculated at a 90% rate. Why? Because they probably didn't get the great variety of options that a Valedictorian might have.</p>

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<p>With a skewed population, the number you want to have is the median SAT score, but they only provide the mean. Perhaps they might be afraid of scaring off too many applicants if they provided the median. Saying that the 50% range is 1400-1580 is less scary than saying that the median is in the mid-1500's.</p>

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<p>Your entire argument is based on assumptions, and thus null and void. "Therefore there must be" "There must have been" "Therefore, about" "It is fair to say that"</p>

<p>You cannot make an argument with points like this - at least you can't do that and represent it as fact.</p>

<p>Honestly, I just don't know what else to say without sounding mean. It just makes no sense - even if your conclusion is correct. It is like starting a math problem, writing jibberish, and then copying the correct answer out of the back of the book. Good point though. In fact when you consider that the difference between 700, 750, and 800 on one section of the SAT I can be the difference between FIVE questions out of around 55 - the difference between ~1350 and 1600 lessens.</p>

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<p>The mean SAT score, at least when this 1400-1580 data was released, was I believe a 1490. I wouldn't be surprised if the median SAT as well is actually right in the middle of the interquartile range, as it seems that (if you look below) the mean is right smack in the middle b/w the 2 quartiles. The only thing that leaves some skepticism is that there is not anywhere to go up from a 1580, where there is much that can be lost from a 1400. That is where it gets fishy, as it is likely that some accepted athletes and minorities score below a 1380 (20 points below the IQR). With that in mind, I think you are right that the median score is higher than 1490, but I don't think a 1550 median is reasonable. I think you would be looking at a much sligher shift (maybe 1510-1520?)</p>

<p>25th percentile: 1400
Mean: 1490
75th percentile: 1580</p>

<p>One of the things that is misleading is the ambiguity as to what a 1580 actually means. The reason I mention this is the # of potential perfect scorers you mentioned includes kids that received those scores on a single sitting. There are many other students, myself included, that got the 1600 - as far as Harvard is concerned - but wouldn't show up in your 600ish "perfect" scorers. That data also seems old, as I believe last year there were around 900. There is no way to know how many received those high scores via composite testing, but I think realistically you are looking at 1,500 to 2,000 kids that received a composite 1600. </p>

<p>This would throw some of the logic off, and I'm not sure I know what to make of it. However, I find it hard to believe that 1,200 or so of the composite 1600s applied to Harvard and only 200 were admitted. The more realistic explanation feeds from the point that SonataX made. The yield at Harvard for a 1600 acceptee is likely much lower than 79%. More likely the 1,200 1600 applicant figure still stands, with around 300-350 ultimately being admitted to Harvard. It makes much more sense that 25-30% of perfect scorers would be admitted as opposed to of a rate of 16-17%, especially in the light of the fact that an average applicant (who has roughly a 1410 SAT) has a 9-10% probability of acceptance. If the 16-17% acceptance rate was accurate, it would suggest that Harvard provides little differentiation b/w a 1400 and 1600...as can be seen on these boards, that is not the case.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Now the difference between a 1580, 1590 and a 1600 is just a statistical anomaly, and so about 10% must have a score of 1589 and another 10% must have a score of 1580. When you add this up, then about 30% have scores of either 1580, 1590 or 1600.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm too lazy to look up the exact statistics, but I recall seeing on a College Board report that there are substantially more 1600s than 1590s or 1580s. Your argument isn't correct.</p>

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<p>hmm, so what scores would help? i mean is 2100 the reccomended baseline before they stop caring or is it higher? Is it 2250 now or what? what scores do we need if we want to stay competative? i got a 2060 on my first try, how much do i need to improve? my grades aren't that great so my sat is going to need to make up for it. everyone is wondering these questions, i might as well write them down.</p>

<p>btw: yeah i do know the Harvard isnt everything argument is correct, but for now in these 2 years, i need to think it is so i try my hardest. I mean aim for the moon even if you miss you'll land among the stars right? I like harvard as a school and i want to go there. in 2-3 i'll know that harvard isnt everything, even if i go there. so just let us think it is for now. eventually we'll catch on. :)</p>

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<p>Kind of OT but my question is, does Harvard realize that the difference between a 1600 and a 1500 is only four or five questions?</p>

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<p>I'm sure they do know that the difference is only a few questions. I mean, it's the freakin Harvard admissions office, after all.</p>

<p>It's my own personal belief that they don't care - I believe they'd evaluate a 1500 and a 1600 almost identically.</p>

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<p>Don't worry so much about the SATs. I got a 1470 and was accepted, one of my friends got a 1300 and was accepted (although he was a heavily recruited athlete).</p>

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<p>1460 (780m, 680v) and I got in. You don't need a perfect score.</p>

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<p>Athletes, legacies, and urm's don't count, cortez! What happens to their apps can't be applied to the rest of us.</p>

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<p>you didnt have perfect sat's but did you have perfect gpa's?</p>

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<p>i find it hard to believe these stats about how few ppl have 1600's...four people, myself included, have 1600's at my school (and it is a public high school with a senior class of 350)...two, myself included have 2400's (tho i was the only person to do it in one sitting, but not first sitting)...i think that 1600's/2400's aren't as powerful in the admissions process as they are made out to be...i think once you're above a certain point the admission officer will say "he/she is qualified...now for the rest of the app"...i guess i'll find out in april...hopefully i'm wrong :)</p>

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<p>I've gotten B+'s...and I don't know my unweighted GPA, but I'm just saying that you don't need a 1500+. Not so great SATs + not so great GPA probably won't do much for you, but the perfect SAT isn't a must. My two SAT sittings were 2150 and 2100, with a 2200 composite. I didn't break 700 on my verbal in either sitting, and my math/verbal went down 100 points from my first test to the next.</p>

<p>I'm a white male from a private school in MA, and I play no varsity sports.</p>

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<p>Actually I'm a parent and have a grad degree in statistics. The number of 1600's nationwide is from "Making It Into A Top College" by Greene. He is not clear if the 1600 had to result from a single sitting or from a combined score.</p>

<p>The 50% SAT Range already says that 25% of the accepted students at Harvard have SAT's of 1580+. Along with the 50% range, this already implies a heavily skewed population. The median and the mean differ significantly in a skewed population.</p>

<p>My guess from the data, and it is only an educated guess, is that 25% are between 1200-1400 (published data), 25% are between 1400-1550, 25% are between 1550-1580, and 25% are over 1580 (published data). Other elite schools publish that 1-2% are typically below 1200. The only open question in this paragraph is the median (not the mean). A median of 1550 is suggested due to the nature of a curve where 25% are below 1400 and 25% are above 1580.</p>

<p>I was really just trying to emphasize the small number of high scores nationwide and how they come to reside at the elite schools. And to make points 1, 2 and 3.</p>

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<p>Some of the people posted anecdotal evidence. Obviously some people do get in with a 1470. Sometimes I have seen people say something to that effect, and I'll look at their other posts, and discover that they are Native American. That happened last week when a poster said that the key to getting in is to form a "personal relationship with the regional rep." There was nothing in their post to indicate that they had any kind of a hook, and they actually seemed to imply that you don't need a hook.</p>

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<p>first of all.....instead of GUESSINg the statistics...why not do a survey at Harvard directly!!
second...there is a thing called Academic Index that each and every Ivy (and other prestigious schools) uses. What they do is calculate you academic strength and then represent it in a defined number. While calculating this, I have heard (only heard), that your GPA is weighted at somewhere around 60-70%, SAT I at 20-30% and SAT II at 10-20%. so that will explain how 1200s get in to Harvard. But one thing has to be common for this to be true, everyone at Harvard MUST have high GPAs.</p>

<p>When they calculate everyones Academic Index, they then use the rest of the application (essay, recommendatin, talents, etc.) to kick off really bookish people or to accept minorities, athletes or well-rounded people. </p>

<p>But if the Index falls down, you dont have a chance ...... meaning ..... good grades are essential for your application to even be considered for a reading!!!</p>

<p>In the end, your SATs play a minor role....as the adcoms actually look at your Academic index and not your SAT score!!!
and BTW, there is an academic index calculator at CC website!!</p>