Family Gets Lesson in Admissions

Parents Forum
21

<p>I didn't see the whininess either!</p>

<p>The second and third paragraphs of the article (emphasis mine):</p>

<p>
[quote]
A year and a half, 12 applications, one deferral and two rejections later, Jonathan is starting college — **happily and gratefully, **with a full-tuition scholarship — at Duke.</p>

<p>Getting deferred and then rejected by Princeton was a big blow, but the college admission process packed many lessons for Jonathan, a member of USA TODAY's 2006 All-USA High School Academic Team. Aside from learning to pick himself up from disappointment, he also had to let go of nine of the 10 places he did get into. "I put a lot of stress on myself," he says. "I learned to fail; I learned to fall and get up and end up at a place I'm thrilled to be attending."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm struck that he doesn't blame anyone else for the stress--he says above, "I put a lot of stress on myself."</p>

<p>Doesn't sound whiny to me. </p>

<p>Sounds like a kid who realizes that he has had a positive outcome, but regrets the amount of stress, time, and energy that went into the college application process, and would like to share his retrospective thoughts on lessons learned with future applicants (i.e., apply to fewer schools, apply to an early safety with rolling admissions) in the hopes that they will experience less stress than he did.</p>

22

<p>The two most amazing college applicants I have ever known were both rejected at Princeton (and accepted at Harvard, Yale -- the one who applied, Stanford, MIT, and Penn, among others). One was "perfect": first generation college applicant, top scores in everything, Intel semifinalist, math prodigy, val and class president, best student in the decade at a strong school. There was absolutely nothing wrong with him, except that Princeton is accepting about 900 out of 16,000 applications in RD, and a bunch of those are deferred ED kids.</p>

23

<p>Hmmm. I'm still wondering how this is news, "Kid with a 1380 doesn't get into Princeton and Yale. Extra , Extra!!! Read all about it!!"</p>

<p>Kid with nuclear chemist dad has patentable work in fuel cell technology. Is val . Gets an IB diploma. Has an impressive list of EC's. Writes 12 apps, gets in 10.</p>

<p>I find the more amazing thing is that he got a full tuition scholarship to Duke. He definitely got the benefit of a favorable review there! </p>

<p>Look, he failed to flip the switch at Princeton or Yale, and flipped it at Duke with a bottom 1/3 SAT. Be happy. Be very happy. </p>

<p>When D had a 1470, val, big but different EC's several on the board were urging her to retake the SAT's to try to get over the magic 1500 :eek: (some suggested 1550). I resisted but ultimately agreed that it MIGHT be best to do so. Maybe this kid's "less than 1400" was the result of several retakes and the best results in each area from those several retakes. We don't have that data. (He could have been a 580CR, 800 M, we don't know.) But, I will say this - her 35 , 1580 equivalent SAT, Val, etc got my kid her only waitlist at the same school that gave this kid full-tuition. She didn't flip their switch, and you know what? That's O.K.. LOL. They don't need to explain it to me. </p>

<p>I think they ought to be deliriously happy, grateful, and I might add - thanking their lucky stars.</p>

24

<p>I didn't see him as whiny at all. I see him happy about where he is attending. I see it more as a reflection of the process by someone who "had it all", so to speak, and how that can still mean rejections. It seemed to me that this kid was on the USA TODAY's 2006 All-USA High School Academic Team. I think this story is a follow up to one of these top students who they had chosen and profiled. Like...how it all turned out with one of our super star picks...</p>

<p>I think it is a good story. Actually, around here, even teachers and guidance counselors would tell my daughter, "you can get in anywhere you want" and "I cannot believe you did not get into Yale." which is NOT at all our own thinking because we researched elite college admissions enough to know that at schools like Yale or Princeton there is a crapshoot or unpredictability even for those most qualified. We knew it, our daughter knew it, and didn't expect anything, even if she was solidly in the running, which I think she was (she did have a deferral at Yale and a waitlist at Princeton, so she wasn't exactly rejected off the bat). On top of that, she wanted to attend two other schools equally as much, that she did get into and thus, she got into and is still attending one of her first choices. Nothing to be sad about AT ALL. She feels lucky and happy and I think this boy does too.</p>

<p>I also do not think the parents were overly involved in a bad way. It sounds to me that they did some secretarial work or gathering of some information sorts of things. They didn't write his brag sheet, essays, or what have you. While my kids made their own record keeping charts, we did discuss things together, and I didn't make them for them but I was a guide through it all. They manage excellently on their own now at college.</p>

25

<p>Huh? what whining? where?</p>

26

<p>I'm wondering about the nuclear chemist dad-->fuel cell research and patent application connection too. </p>

<p>While the student in question does have other commendable ecs, I wonder if colleges don't look at such a remarkable achievement as a patent application and question whether it was the work of independent thought and work process. There are kids who do achieve greatly with appropriate guidance from mentors, the kids who actually HAVE the ideas. But let's be real...this is the exception not the rule. And I am astounded at how over the top accomplishments by mere teenagers are now becoming so commonplace.</p>

<p>It is very possible the student in question very much deserves the recognition for his work and just doesn't test well. I am not personally questioning anyone's integrity. But I do wonder if these items on a college resume do not stop a college admissions committee in their tracks....perhaps creating doubt and hurting an otherwise outstanding applicant's chances.</p>

<p>PS...I also did not get whining at all. I'm assuming the kid got a Robertson at Duke and they seem pretty darned happy about it. My d's roommate at UNC, who also has an IB diploma, is a Robertson scholar. It's a pretty selective group of Duke/UNC students.</p>

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<p>I'd certainly say that it seemed to be an inconsistancy with his testing that most uber selective schools would have questioned. I mean they question high GPA and lower test scores . Now had the father been a coal miner, we might have a different story. But a family as well-informed, organized and proactive as this one? I think a flag went up. Fair? I don't know. </p>

<p>How does one get on the radar screen as a USA Today scholar? Would knowledge of the process give a particular family a leg up? I don't think anyone in our hamlet has ever heard of it. What are the criteria? Who nominates? Seems that what impresses the paper doesn't always impress the schools.</p>

<p>BTW, I didn't hear whining but I did hear some disbelief that he didn't get in when the test results (when submitted to schools who value test results) should have told them it was a super reach anyway.</p>

28

<p>Didn't see the article whining at all. Rather saw it as a cautionary lesson for all those applying in the next few years.</p>

<p>DS applied to more than 12 schools last year and did NOT apply ED anywhere. Nor SCEA.</p>

<p>Did apply EA to some schools however. They weren't rolling admissions but some did get back to him early for even EA apps. So they seemed like "rolling" admissions' decisions! And yes it did really take the pressure off between November and April. Of course it was a stressful month of April til May 1st, but that was OK! </p>

<p>Son's Princeton acceptance was the very last to come in and my mindset had him at a different school by that time. But that was just me. And since he used the Common App for all those that he could I don't think whether he did 1 or 12 made any difference. MIT, CalTech, Penn, Northwestern and Chicago's apps all required much more from him than did the Common App.</p>

<p>I think the article highlights how even the very prepared are not assured a spot everywhere. Son says he came to think of his schools that were very, very selective as 1 application not as many.</p>

<p>And like Curm mentioned we feel very fortunate with his eventual outcomes. And I'm not a nuclear chemist! Lucky if I spell it right.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

29

<p>Frankly, this kid impressed ME, I don't know about you. Forget the research. He had lots else going for him.</p>

<p>The USA Today thing, might be sent as a mailing to schools around the country, not sure. </p>

<p>Top colleges want kids who do not just have great numbers. They want the other stuff. That is why this kid WAS successful at many selective schools. Plus he was val and in IB combined. Not exactly a dumb kid. The SATs are not everything.</p>

30

<p>Still susan, bottom third? In CC speak that's the third we don't expect un-hooked kids to emerge from, isn't it? Given that, I think his results are spectacular.</p>

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<p>Agree curmudgeon. I've known a couple of kids who are research phenoms, and they have killer SATs to match. </p>

<p>I'm guess I am just a big stickler about 'ideas'. My d is an exceptionally bright NMF and could assist any professional in a fairly meaningful way with research. And my husband, who is a petroleum engineer, could put her to work on any of a number of projects that would look great on a resume. But could she come up with the IDEA for that work herself? Nope....she's smart, but she doesn't have the training or experience to think along those lines. And I admit to being a little resentful of the fact that the college admissions bar is being raised for our children by adults with adult life experiences....and not by their peers. I'm not bitter at all because she got into an honors program at a great school that is a perfect fit....and fit is what is most important. But something has got to change for the sake of future college applicants.</p>

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<p>"How does one get on the radar screen as a USA Today scholar? Would knowledge of the process give a particular family a leg up? I don't think anyone in our hamlet has ever heard of it. What are the criteria? Who nominates? Seems that what impresses the paper doesn't always impress the schools."</p>

<p>USA TODAY honors its annual All-USA High School Academic Team in May. The 20 students named to the All-USA High School Academic First Team have their photos published and accomplishments spotlighted in USA TODAY's Life section as representatives of all outstanding high school students. They each receive a trophy and a $2,500 cash award. Forty more runners-up are named to the Second and Third Teams; they are also announced in the newspaper and receive certificates.</p>

<p>The All-USA High School Academic Team honors high school students who not only excel in scholarship but also extend their intellectual abilities beyond the classroom to benefit society. Criteria include grades, academic rigor, leadership, activities and most important, the student's essay describing his or her most outstanding intellectual endeavor done while in high school.</p>

<p>Nominations open in December and are due in mid-February. The team will be announced in USA TODAY in May. Schools may nominate as many students as they consider appropriate candidates for this award. Counselors, principals and other faculty and staff members at your school may nominate you for the award, but the nominator must be employed by your high school.</p>

33

<p>A few years ago, a top student at our highschool did not get in early at an ivy as a Siemans finalist. Our school is not one of those who have a structured set up for these high powered competitons, so anyone who is participating has to line up everything outside of school. This young man had high 1400s as test scores with perfects in the math/science SAT2s and was taking very advanced courses. So I am not surprised at what happened to the young man featured in that article. With so many remarkable students applying to the top schools, the adcoms become rejection directors rather than admission. They need to often split hairs and look for a chink in the profile when there are so many equally worthy applicants.</p>

34

<p>I agree the family did not appear whiny at all ... however given the premise/lead of the article (look at this great student who didn't get into his first choice Princeton) selecting this student seems odd to me. While leading with the "look where he didn't get in" we eventually find out a student with OK SATs got into 83% of incredibly selective schools ... if anything this case seems to indicate the application process works ... on the whole these schools looked beyond the relatively low SAT and saw a great student. 83% acceptences is extraordinary ... congrats to the kid!</p>

35

<p>Maybe he's the only one of the 20 USA Today High School Academic Team who didn't get into an Ivy/his first choice school?</p>

36

<p>even so, he still got one hell of a "consolation" prize.</p>

37

<p>


LOL. You ain't kidding!</p>

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<p>t1388, thanks for the data. That explains it. Our school would have had to 1) Know about it 2) Give a crap. Neither of which was very likely. ;)</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
I mean they question high GPA and lower test scores .

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's curious how we, and perhaps the ivies, distinguish between a mere 1490 on the SATs and a score of, say, 1530 (or even 1550) when both are well within the Standard Error of Measurement of the SAT!</p>

<p>Do colleges know something we don't? I don't think so, but I would agree that what is technically meaningless, such SAT hairsplitting, seems to be done all the time. Perhaps an effort to keep reported stats high?</p>

40

<p>Curm wrote:

[quote]
Still susan, bottom third? In CC speak that's the third we don't expect un-hooked kids to emerge from, isn't it? Given that, I think his results are spectacular.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, his SATs were in the bottom third of accepted students to Princeton or Yale but....</p>

<p>First of all obviously, SOME kids (an entire third of the class) do get in with SATs in that range, so it is not like he wasn't within the range of accepted students on the SATs. </p>

<p>Secondly, while his SATs were in the bottom third, everything else was very HIGH...his GPA, val, IB curriculum. Then even without the cell research which some are questioning (though he really did it so can't be discounted even if people sniff connections), this kid was president of the orchestra, started a fencing team, was an Eagle Scout and then was a rep to the State Board of Education, as well as his local board. I know a girl from our state who is at Yale who had SATs, I believe, in the 1200's, but had great ECs and ALSO was the student rep on the State Board of Education. </p>

<p>So, while this boy's SATs were on the lower end for Yale or Princeton, they were not out of the ballpark and he had high marks in all the other criteria, enough to be admitted, I believe. His results at other schools, and the scholarship to Duke ride that out. But schools like Princeton and Yale, have many top applicants who are val AND have a perfect SAT and they do not ALL get in. If this boy's SATs were higher, it may have helped, but he was not guaranteed getting in, even with a 1500 SAT. Look at all the kids who post on CC in April who are rejected by the likes of HYP who had very high SATs, even higher than some who were admitted. You just have to be in the ballpark of SATs at those schools, and a lot of the other factors are weighed heavily. That is the name of the game at schools with admit rates in the single digits. I don't think there was a dark mark on this kid's app but simply the situation is such that kids like him do get turned away....often. Kids with much higher SATs than this kid, also get turned away.....often. But kids like him, USUALLY get into some very good schools, just not all. So, they can only attend one, after all, and so this kids' results are fab, in my book. </p>

<p>The only shock of his not getting into Princeton or Yale is by those who are not familiar with the status of elite college admissions TODAY. Maybe 20 years ago, a kid like that was a shoo in, but certainly no longer.</p>