<p>'I agree that the volunteer help abroad is more beneficial for the American kid than for the putative recipient of the kid's community service. But there is still something worthwhile to spending a period of time as part of a community as opposed to being a pampered tourist, as Cheers showed."</p>
<p>I'm almost 57 years old, traveling abroad as a "volunteer" (if you wish to call it that) for almost 35 years, raised hundreds of thousands of dollars, and still feel that it is more beneficial for me than for the "recipients". In fact, when I have (on rare occasions) complained about my "uselessness", my adopted brother from Cambodia is quick to point out that my chief role is as itinerant priest, who comes to bear witness, and to simply tell others what I have seen. If others can do that at an earlier age, so much the better. </p>
<p>Doesn't have to cost $15k, though. My d., at 17, went to Cambodia, Thailand, and India (where she did mostly documentation work), with a total cost of under $2,300, including transportation.</p>
<p>It costs $5,400; still more than $2,300 but less than $15k. I assume the differential has to do with the girl in the article going through a program while your D went on her own.</p>
<p>Sorry if I offended anyone, but I meant that summer programs just for the purpose of college (in context with the article are useless). I'm sure many of them are exciting and interesting like COSMOS or whatnot. </p>
<p>And you probably are rich if you can afford summer programs just for college.</p>
<p>To second soozie -- I also don't understand this scoresheet that kids keep of community service hours. When I see that someone has "2000 hours of cs" -- my first thought is whether they include in that time how long it took them to add up the hours. I have never calculated the number of hours I spend volunteering -- I just do it. </p>
<p>My daughter went to an academic program between sixth and seventh grade. She came home and said, "Is that what it's like to be in college, where everyone loves to learn?" That program helped push her in the right direction. She went back every summer. After four summers, they asked her to teach a class. She wrote her own curriculum, created handouts and activities, and taught a class in film analysis. This summer will be her third as a teacher. So this academic program worked out very well for her. </p>
<p>We've paid for various summer programs, but never because we thought it would "get her into college" but to give her experiences, have her meet different people and see different places. My only problem with any of these programs is if people do them only because they think it gives them an advantage in the college process.</p>
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We've paid for various summer programs, but never because we thought it would "get her into college" but to give her experiences, have her meet different people and see different places.
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<p>Absolutely agreed. After she "outgrew" her summer day camp (which she had to attend because my h and I work full-time), d went to sleep-away camp which cost a pretty penny. Then she decided she wanted to dance during the summer, so we found dance programs that she could enjoy. One of her programs was international (but held in NY); she still has friends she stays in touch with from Italy, Australia, and Japan. She is not going to be a professional dancer; these programs did nothing to increase her SAT scores or grades. She enjoyed them. If they show a college her "passion", that's a bonus. She went because she had the passion, not because she wanted to prove it. (And we scrimped for those programs, but did it because we felt it was important. Just as we'll scrimp to pay tuition.)</p>
<p>You keep scoresheets cuz you have to in many cases. We are keeping one now that has to be submitted for my 8th graders confirmation, and one of my boys needed one to graduate from highschool. You can be laissez faire about them, I suppose, but that is what the requirements of the governing bodies require, formal submission of scoresheets complete with signature of those in charge of the community service performed. Though I do rankle a bit about the formality of the whole thing which does unfortunately often ruin the spirit of it, the whole purpose of a required or highly recommended (college apps) community service, is so that the kid experiences a bit of it, contrived though it may be. Just as a kid may not be focused on certain academic areas, many schools require in addition to required academics, a course or so in the arts, in PE, etc. It is also making a statement on what is held in high esteem in life that is not so obvious. I find it difficult now to do community service because the immediate payoff is not there other than in my feelings, when there are things that have to be done in my life that would have detrimental consequences if not done and benefits that are more important (like pay) to the family. It is a shame that programs, colleges, schools have to make it a "requirement" , implied or formal for families to involve their kids in community service and kids to do it, but that is the case since kids at this age tend to want immediate and obvious gratification from what they do. Though my son did get enjoyment from the hard labor he has done on some comm service projects, he is not exactly jumping up to do more, prefering hanging out with friends, lounging with tv, computer, video games. The fact that he is sort of required to do this is an impetus for him.</p>
<p>As for these contrived community service programs abroad, I still think that the educational value of them far outstrips the concern that they are "bogus". Many kids go abroad for other reasons and it can cost just as much or more. THis is just another facet of seeing another country. Since there are so many of these programs, I have no doubt that the adcoms in selective schools know that these things are "bought", but value them for the intrinsic worth, just as they would a summer studying abroad that is clearly bought, but does show that a student has an interest in that activity. A family vacation at a resort or family villa abroad, I am sure, is not viewed in the same context, though there may be educational components there too.</p>
<p>Where we live, there is no required community service, so there was no counting up of "hours". On applications, with ALL of their activities, they had to write how many hours per week and how many weeks per year. They figured that out when the time came to fill out the apps. I just had never heard of total number of hours in community service a la "I have 78 hours of community service" like I see kids posting on CC before came to CC. My kids would be apt to tell you what activities they've done, not total hours from all of high school combined. </p>
<p>As far as summer programs that cost money (and my kids did ones every summer for years and years that cost money), I don't think colleges frown upon these AT ALL. Not only have my own kids gone onto selective schools but the peers they have met there have also done various summer activities or travel that also cost money. It doesn't HURT one's chances of getting into college. It may not be impressive but who cares? Do what you enjoy doing and what you can afford. My kids never chose summer activities thinking about college admissions ever. One kept going to the same program she started at age nine right through to the summer prior to college. But I don't think that the fact that their summer activities, programs, camps, travel programs, etc. cost money was a negative in college admissions. I surely could care less if it was a positive because they pursued what they wanted to do for its own sake, not to get into college. But there are lots and lots of kids at their selective schools who have also done things in summers that cost money. Lots. For us, this wasn't spending money to get a kid into college. It was spending money to support our kids' interests and to allow them worthwhile experiences and basically the cost of raising them. I could see adding up what it costs to raise kids today but unlike the article, I would not count the cost of extracurriculars or summer activities as "positioning" costs to get into college. If my kids never chose to attend college, they would have done the very same activities and I would have spent the very same amount of money prior to college. And while we are at it, my kids would have spent the same number of hours in these pursuits regardless if college was on the horizon or not. Even now IN college, as my 18 year old remarked last night, she is booked solid every day, every night, and all weekend. She wants that life, not as a means to something else.</p>
<p>Should this discussion be about the value of summer camps, including trips abroad? I don't think so! There is no doubt that there are MANY very worthwhile programs, and unfortunately some that are ... a bit less than that.</p>
<p>However, going back to the article, and despite the characterization of shoddy journalism, we have to believe that the journalist DID interview the parents and the student. The more I read the article, the clearer it becomes that the unmistakable line is, "Then there's the strain on Rachael, who's pushing herself relentlessly to pursue academic and extracurricular activities she believes will give her a competitive edge" and the key words are *extracurricular activities she believes will give her a competitive edge. * </p>
<p>So, there it is! This is not about doing the right thing, but it is about gaining a competitive edge for ... college admissions. FWIW, one cynic could decree that this ENTIRE site is dedicated to gaining and edge in college admissions, and that could very well be true. </p>
<p>The reality is that families and student feel compelled to finding ways to boost their chances. For some, ths includes years of quasi slavery learning to master an instrument that will dropped the moment the ED admission shows up, for others that includes being driven around from one SAT industrial mill masquerading as a Sunday Bible school to another, for others that will in the pursuit of "charitable" work that can be documented, and lastly there is the "acquisition" of scientific awards that require an entire team of willing scientists. </p>
<p>At the end, gaining admission in the right school has become SO important that there is little wonder that everyone seeks that elusive competitive advantage.</p>
<p>It's too hard for me to tell from the excerpt if this girl is doing all these things to get a "competitive" edge or because she enjoys doing them. One tell tale sign would be if she drops everything once she gets admitted. I understand that the wording of her parents was that she is pushing herself to get a "competitive edge." It is too hard to tell if she chose her particular activities just to get into college. I don't have enough to go on. Take away the words "competitive edge" and the rest would not be too negative....a kid who pushes herself to excel because she has interests and goals in life and strives to do her best and enjoys what she does. That can also be stressful even if the person is highly motivated for its own sake and does activities out of genuine interest and not to be competitive. A busy lifestyle and one in which the person tries to excel at all that they do because they are intrinsically motivated and driven, still can be stressful. The stress may not be to get INTO college but simply that they are juggling many things and are the type who have high standards for themselves and so on. If the motivation is simply to get into college and nothing else, that is too bad. But I couldn't really infer all of that from what I read. It may be so, but it also may simply be parents commenting on a kid who is a high achiever and very busy with a mulititude of things and trying to do them all very well. There are driven kids who are not happy unless they put their all into something to excel and have set high standards for themselves. It does'nt mean that everything they do is with "college admissions" and competition in mind. I realize that one phrase from the parents and it COULD be the case but it wasn't enough to go on. Take out "competitive edge" and you could just have one very motivated busy teenager who strives to do her best at everything and parents see that their kid is happy but yet doesn't exactly have a lot of relaxation and maybe the parents think it is too much and the kid just wants to keep doing and doing. It may be ONLY that. Or perhaps the kid truly is doing it just to get into college. I can't tell enough from what I read.</p>
<p>Also, Xiggi, when I was commenting about summer programs, it was because the article mentioned the COST of summer programs as positioning to get into college, whereas many do summer programs for the experiences themselves and the parents view the cost as part of raising children, not as tickets to college admissions.</p>
<p>Xiggi, how can one trust the journalist to report faithfully when the headline is so glaringly at war with what the parents stated anent Harvard?</p>
<p>I agree with Marite in post #73.....I hear the parents saying they wish their daughter's life wasn't so stressful with all that she is doing and that she feels she must do to succeed and to get into college and the parents are saying they wish their D would step back and not just look at schools like Harvard. Then the headline says they paid money to position their kid to get into Harvard. The parents aren't saying "Harvard or bust" at all. The parents spent money on things I have spent money on raising my kids such as lessons and summer programs. We never discussed colleges when spending the money or when the kids opted to do activities. Never.</p>
<p>Sometimes folks do things for reasons that have very little to do with what they ultimately get out of them.</p>
<p>Regardless, why is the education being purchased now of any less value that what might be gained at some august institution in the future? Today, there is nothing educationally speaking going on at Yale for my younger daughter that is more important for her than what is happening in our backyard.</p>
<p>Also, Northstarmom was saying in the original post (and I do respect Northstarmom and often agree with her but not so much this time)....that it was too bad this family was spending money on things that don't impress schools like Harvard. In my family, we spent money on activities and summer programs, not to impress any college. I have no care if they impressed colleges or not. We simply supported activities our kids asked to do for their own sake. When it came time to apply to college, they simply documented what they had done growing up. Nothing was chosen to impress. Who cares if they were the umpteenth kid who has played clarinet? They wanted to play clarinet. Who cares that they did a travel program abroad? They wanted to travel. I doubt these things impress colleges and they are not unique and yes, they cost money and colleges know that. But they still got in. I don't think these choices HURT their chances. These things were not chosen to impress. They were chosen because they wanted to do them and they got something out of the experiences for their own sake. I see lots of kids at my kids' selective schools who have done similar things that cost money that are not the most impressive or unique thing out there. So what, is my opinion. They did what they loved. That's all I ever cared about and so was the case with my kids. Still is, now that they are IN college. Hasn't seemed to hurt their chances at anything down the line.</p>
<p>I agree, Soozie. When I read somewhere that an adcom was saying that a kid's family trip to somewhere was not creating a good impression, I sure hope it was the demeanor of the kid, not the trip. It has come to the point where you have to hide the way you live when it is as obvious as can be on the app anyways. If you live in an expensive area, have activities that clearly cost money, go to a private school, are not applying for financial aid, your parents are in professions that pay well, it is clear that you are not challenged in the financial area. It should also be obvious that your family indulges in luxeries, and a vacation is almost certainly going to be one of them. To avoid mentioning it as a taboo subject is wrong. Especially because you can learn some great things on such vacations and do some great things too. </p>
<p>However, parents and kids should be aware that adcoms know what sort of things are bought. Yeah, your kid got a great part in Theatre for Kids, but, yes, they bought you that part in that it takes $$$ to be in a group. Your kid is a great violin player in the Youth Orchestra. You bought that seat. Very unlikely that you did not pay for the lessons to get him there. Your kids built houses in Tibet. How did he get there? I am sure the adcoms are very aware of these comm svc programs. All of these things are viewed in light of the rest of the profile. The kid who is composing music on his own and has big plans for using his talent and skills is impressive even if getting him to that point was money bought. The kid who is interested in architechture for low income families, and has visited third world countries and viewed some actual works in progress and has a lot to say about this is a catch to me, and I am sure, to adcoms, even if the program was bought. The actor who is clearly on fire about theatre and has insights, opinions, plans and enthusiam is someone that makes a favorable impression anywhere in the admissions world, even if his highschool activities and experiences in that area were funded by parents. We are truly using tunnel vision if we view everything we do and our kids do in terms of how an college adcome might look at it.</p>
<p>You should be proud of the way you have raised your kids. I really don't think anyone is criticizing families who provide a myriad of activites for their kids if the kids are really interested.</p>
<p>In our extremely competitive community however, it is very obvious that kids are pressured into so many things that they probably would never have undertaken on their own. I (and my kids) hear things like "you have to do 4 years of varsity sports, a certain number of AP classes, have a really "meaningful" summer after soph/jr year, take all the test prep courses, do some impressive CS, do so many ECs...." It is very difficult for some parents and kids to not fall prey to that kind of pressure.</p>
<p>Can any of us really say that none of our kids ever did anything for the sake of college admissions? I moved to my town because of the excellence of the schools. Did I look at whether she'd get into college? Darned right. She's not a math kid. She's taking calculus anyway (not AP, but calculus nonetheless). Is that because it "looks better" to have 4 years of math, ending in calculus? Absolutely. Do kids sometimes have to drop extracurriculars in order to keep up their grades? Sure do.</p>
<p>No person "loves" everything they have to do so that they can engage in the things they do love to do. We all have to do things we hate. And every child at some point takes classes in subjects they'd rather pass on, or performs other tasks that they'd rather not, to make themselves look better in this process. </p>
<p>Nonetheless, I agree that some things are "over the top", but doing things because colleges want to see them is not necessarily always wrong.</p>
<p>Bay...I TRULY understand what you are saying. Luckily (I feel), my kids didn't grow up in a community where the pressure was from parents, peers, school, community to compete to get into colleges, etc. It just isn't part of the culture here. So, everything my kids did, I can say this with assurity, was because they wanted to. The only thing they did with an eye on college was to do their best at school because they knew that in order to go to college, you have to do well in school. They love learning as well. They are motivated learneers and we didn't have to make them do it. But they did know that doing well at academics is important if you have goals for college. But in terms of activities and summers, these were things they chose simply cause they wanted to do these things and frankly, had been doing these same interests since they were very young and just kept doing them and keep wanting to do them in college too. But I am very cognizant of the kinds of pressures from without (as opposed to from within) that kids in communities like yours face. I have met plenty of people in person and on CC and have read books and articles that chronicle such competitive atmospheres. To be honest, the more I learn of it, the happier I am that my kids grew up here (in rural Vermont). :D</p>
<p>cptofthehouse....You're right...that often kids who have a talent in this or that, were supported financially in ways that helped them along the way to develop those interests and achievements. I just don't think colleges frown on kids whose parents have financially supported such endeavors. At least that doesn't seem to be what I am observing. I look at all the kids my kids know now in college and the kinds of experiences they had prior to college and they got into college and their parents had spent a bunch of money on activities and summers and frankly, in many of their college peers' cases, expensive private and boarding schools (even high end specialty ones). The colleges were willing to take kids whose parents had spent money on these things. In fact, my kids know a LOT of very wealthy kids in college, though none of the kids they grew up with came from such backgrounds. Come to think of it, hardly any kids they grew up with ended up at colleges like the ones they are attending. A few do. Many are very smart too. Here, even middle class families support EC endeavors that cost money. That's why I think that such expenses fall under "raising children" as opposed to the article about $15K going to positioning a kid for Harvard. My kids didn't want to go to Harvard. But we did pay for enriching activities and summers. Our kids asked us to do these things and we supported them. But college never came up in that vein.</p>