Fascinating observation about race and our perceptions

Parents Forum Parent Cafe
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@ucbalumnus hit the nail on the head. Thanks to the usage of leaded gasoline until the ‘70’s, violent crime rates were much higher in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s in to the ‘90’s than now (and urban areas were affected harder because a lot more cars drive through there) while some folks have their impressions formed in those days. I visited Hyde Park very often at all times in the ‘00’s and it didn’t seem unsafe, but someone I knew who attended the U of Chicago back in the ‘80’s said (stranger) rape (by people not affiliated with the uni) happened at that school roughly once a week back then.

My wife and I use to walk through Greenwich Village a ton in the ‘00’s (including often at night) and it didn’t seem unsafe at all, but someone I know who attended NYU back in the ‘90’s said it was still pretty rough back then. Crime in the NYPD 6th precinct decreased 80% between 1990 and 2018. BTW, the Village is predominantly white.

Downtown Manhattan never felt unsafe to me when I worked there (including late at night), but one time, when I asked a former boss what it was like to commute in to downtown back in the ‘80’s, his response was “I feared for my life every single day”.

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Crime is like inflation in many ways. The mere perception of it will cause it to increase. Any expectation, rationalization, or tolerance of it will cause it to run out of control. Some places may seem fine now but should the cycle start again, it will take dramatic action to stop it, just like inflation.

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Is there any evidence of this?

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44

The perception, or the fear, of crime in certain areas caused people to avoid these areas. These areas then gradually became less economically viable and criminal elements moved in. It happened in many neighborhoods in history.

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INJ- I think the data suggests that redlining and other banking/lending practices is what drove out economic viability and activity but I don’t have time to hunt down the research. But curious which “many” neighborhoods you are referring to.

In places like Tulsa OK it was a violent race riot that destroyed the Black middle class 100 years ago. I don’t call that a fear of crime- it was a mass murder, perpetrated by White people (while law enforcement either looked away or participated).

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46

You can slice & dice data in a zillion ways to create these rankings and lists. Given I have lived, worked and volunteered in the city of Chicago (and Cook County) for over 20 years, there is zero, ZERO chance I would feel comfortable with our kids living on the U of C campus right now from a safety perspective. Further, there is simply nowhere to go beyond the campus … you cannot go S, W or E (obviously) … or ride a train N downtown to the loop, or Wicker Park or Bucktown or even Wrigleyville in broad daylight anymore. I used to ride the train alone as a 20+yr old from Lincoln Park to Midway Airport. Sort of bold even then. Today that would be beyond unheard of and frankly stupid. This is sadly the truth. It is not race driven it is just the reality on the ground present day.

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47

These types of data can be selective. If people avoid certain neighborhoods because of their perception or fear of crime, businesses will follow. That’s not a surprise. Banks and other lending institutions can’t be expected to be exceptions. Could race be an issue? Certainly. But I think crimes are much more correlated with poverty than anything else.

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48

???

We ride the “L” all the time and feel totally safe, including at night, as do the vast majority of our friends (at least pre-Covid). D has ridden the train home at night alone many times. Sure, there are certain areas we would not go to but that includes none of the neighborhoods you mentioned.

This may be YOUR truth, but it certainly isn’t mine.

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Hey, whatever you feel comfortable with for your and your family ! I respect one’s choices even in the absence of agreement. You are correct, I observe and gather facts which in turn have defined my reality. The OP is about campus neighborhood safety and no one can claim with a straight face that area to be outright “safe” right now. Trains are running but we don’t know anyone who would choose riding red or brown lines let alone green … the loop is gutted from its former self with little police presence as is the case up/down Lakeshore.

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Huh. Has crime in Chicago increased the last decade? 10-20 years ago, the El didn’t feel unsafe at all, nor did walking to the Metra Electric to go to the Loop.

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Unless we start spewing lead in to the air/water again or otherwise addle their brains (including the parts that regulate self-control), an increase in crime to the level of the ‘70’s seems unlikely. Well, I suppose communities could also get rid policing or stop charging people for crimes. Most likely, crime will go up if criminals don’t have to fear any negative consequences.

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52

This is the basic assumption underlying the “broken windows” theory of policing.

However, like many common-sense analyses of human behavior, it turns out not to work the way one might expect, and that approach has been discredited. (See, for example, this summary of faculty research done at Northeastern.)

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53

I actually think policing is a separate matter. Poverty is the issue. Gentrification only drives poverty and crimes elsewhere. Not only it doesn’t fundamentally solve the problem, but it also creates segregation that sow the seeds for more crimes elsewhere.

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54

Hi, I haven’t read the whole thread but I live in Chicago west of Wrigley in Lakeview West or Southport corridor since the names change it seems… Lol…

My kids took the train to a bus daily to school. Chicago Academy of the arts and Northside College prep.

Wicker and Buck town are great and hint… Logan Square is the new cool spot for the young professionals these days.

Taking the El is not an issue. Yes, of course you have to be careful in a large city. But on the ground there isn’t an issue. Has crime over all increased. Yes. Do we hear about break ins and car jackings… Yes but no more then in the Western Suburb I work in.

UChicago isn’t an issue. I am not pretending there are not issues but that would be with any urban school. I know kids at campus there and not one of them feels unsafe. They have sufficient school and city security patrolling. The Court Theater is lovely (hope it opens soon) and the Jazz performance series is one of the best anywhere.

I understand that I am white and privileged. My kids are not taking mass transit now due to covid. Once things get better they will most likely resume. Will I go on a packed train going forward probably not (of course with a mask). Again living in any major city you have to be extra aware. My kids don’t walk around with their ears covered. I can only hope we have taught them correctly being the young adults that they are… Many young family in my area (I call it stroller city). Most houses are sold within days. More young professional families moving in.

I am not dismissing your feelings since you are entitled to them but it’s not the way you are stating. I have been in my house since 1992 and lived in the area and around the city since 1982. (born here but moved out of state when I was young.

But… If you ever come into the city again… Please look up the Museum of Contemporary Art and their Jazz series on Tuesdays (starting back up soon). It’s free to the museum and show every Tuesday and you will see a melting pot of Chicagoans loving the city.

https://mcachicago.org/Programs/Music/Tuesdays-On-The-Terrace

I mentioned Court Theater on UChicago campus… https://www.courttheatre.org/

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55

I hope you realize that this is YOUR perception. Just because you perceive these places to be so dangerous, does not make them so.

You are not living in Chicagoland now, so your perception is likely not based on recent experience, but on comparison of news headlines and stories of friends and family to your memories and your perceptions of the safety of Chicago in the past. However, unless you grew up in the Chicago area in the 1960s, it was almost certainly more dangerous in Chicago when you lived there than it is now.

When we first arrived in Chicago in 1995, on our way to Urbana, there were places in the city where I would not have walked during the day, where I will walk alone at night these days. I do not know if a single place in all of Chicagoland which was safe in the mid to late 1990s which is not just as safe today, or safer.

I raised a child in the area, from 2005 until 2019, including daycare on the UIC campus. I actually worked at UIC until 2013, and my wife worked at UIC until the end of 2019. So my more recently informed perception is that your perception of the danger level in the places you mentioned is wrong. My daughter took the L and regularly visited Wrigleyville and Bucktown with her friends as a teen. My kid took the train from her high school to her dance lessons in Hubbard Street studios, across from UIC, twice to three times a week as a senior. This was in 2017 - 2019.

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56

I took the Green line regularly, and I also took the Red line regularly. So did most of my neighbors. So do hundreds of thousands to millions of middle class people who work in Chicago and the close suburbs. Perhaps people stopped taking it because of COVID, since we left just before the pandemic started, but I took the Blue Line, the Red Line, The Green Line and the Purple Line.

I chaperoned kids from my daughter’s Middle School class on a trip to Lincoln Park Zoo, which the Middle School organized, and all the parents signed the release form. We took the Green Line AND the Brown Line. Not once did any kid feel unsafe, nor did any of the other 400 kids on the trip.

I chaperoned my daughter’s group of teen friends on the L to the Pride Parade, with the agreement of all of the parents

So I don’t know who you know, but it is definitely a VERY different crowd than the one I know.

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NoReason- not knowing anyone who would choose those lines suggests that your “world” does not reflect reality- economically, socially, professionally. Which is great- but you need to “own” the amount of privilege your post implies. There are lots of honest, hard-working, tax paying people who rely on public transportation to get to work, to get to a doctor’s appointment.

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Please don’t get triggered by what I stated plainly as my personal opinion based on experience and related here to potential travel from the S side of Chicago around the city for my girls as college students. I completely understand & respect the fact that many utilize public transportation (as I did for about 20 yrs to/from work without a car - so much for “privilege”). My sincere hope is they remain safe. I have nothing to apologize for nor would I ask anyone to holding a different opinion than my own.

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I am happy you feel comfy utilizing the L and I simply would ask the same of you even though our opinions differ. Everyone’s experiences are not the same. You don’t know the personal factors which have led to my/our safety concerns and I would hope you respect that at the very least. Given ALL the other college choices available, and our vast personal experience in town, our kids have chosen not to consider it. That’s it. Nothing more. We’ve lived in Cook county since 91’, spending split time in FL, luckily able to work remotely the past year while enjoying the freedoms of warm weather. We just flew back last wkend to see family & friends and am glad to see things opening up a bit.

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I respect your choice, and would not want you to do anything that you feel uncomfortable doing.

My point was, and is, that it is wrong to paint the entire city as though everybody is scared to go anywhere, as you did:

This is not stating a personal opinion or preference, but making a claim that your opinion is held by many, and is therefore is more than just your opinion.

This confuses me. I did not write anything, or imply anything, about your daughter’s college choices or considerations. I only mentioned UIC and UChicago in the context of how safe the campuses happens to be, not that you should send your daughters to either college. I am sorry if you inferred from anything I wrote as criticism of your daughter’s college choices.

Also, to clarify, I only mentioned the fact that you no longer live in the Chicago area in the context of how recent your experience of living in Chicago happens to be, not as criticism of your reasons for moving (which I do not know, which have nothing to do with our discussion, and are not my business).

Fact is, in another four or five years, my own perception of the safety of Chicago may also be outdated, even as we maintain extremely strong connections there and visit as often as possible.

You should not say things like “Please don’t get triggered” in a serious discussion. I have only ever seen phrasing like that used as a way to mock people.

Also, as you certainly know (and I mentioned it), the Red, Brown, and Green Lines do not only connect the South Side and the Loop, but also serve to connect the North Side (the Red Line and Brown Line) and the West Side and the Loop, including Oak Park and Forest Park (the Green Line).

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