<p>Just curious about financial aid offers for EA admits? Am I correct in predicting the price to be about $55,000 this year? Or more? I was given $22,200 in need-based, however no merit money, even though my stats were definitely above the median. Obviously this is a very generous offer, however it only seems to make up for the difference in cost of cheaper universities. Looking at the cost of the school, $20,000 seems of less value than I was originally thinking. Are these offers final or subject to change? I am hoping to get some merit aid, however it seems admissions is definitely increasing in difficulty. Could I get an idea of financial aid offers and stats from other admits? I had a 31 ACT and 3.8 W GPA with many AP's, EC's and some leadership.</p>
<p>Have you received merit offers from other schools? Something tells me that SCU’s budgeting problems are having the school make the decision to offer less in merit this year (and future years), though your weighted GPA may have just put you out of some as well.</p>
<p>
Actually, SCU’s estimated COA this academic year is $58,000 for an undergraduate who lives on campus - $51,000 for commuters. Your personal COA can be different based on how much you anticipate to spend for variable things like food, shelter, books, transportation, etc. However, tuition itself is ~$41,000, so it at least that.
[Santa</a> Clara University - Financial AidCost of Attendance](<a href=“http://www.scu.edu/financialaid/Cost-of-Attendance.cfm]Santa”>Financial Aid - Santa Clara University)</p>
<p>
It is generous in the sense that SCU is bringing itself down to an equal affordability if you were to be full pay at a public school, however if you also receive considerable need-based aid (Pell and Cal Grants etc) for publics, then it would still be considerably cheaper at the publics. So, yes, I concur that by offering as much as they did, they are bringing their COA to the same level as a public school, which is doing a lot, but maybe not enough.</p>
<p>Have you filed FAFSA yet? It is due for EA students by Feb 1st. If you have, then is this offer after you’ve filed or have you yet to receive anything else since you’ve filed FAFSA?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I did file the FAFSA and submitted it on January 1st. This offer was given to me in December based on the Financial Profile I filled out on College Board. I haven’t received anything yet since filing the FAFSA.</p>
<p>The school would have made all their determinations off of the CSS profile, so it doesn’t look like they will offer you more - you would most likely only get and Pell and Cal Grant if eligible to receive any - if you are a CA resident, then you already shoul qualify for Cal based on your GPA.</p>
<p>If you anticipate to receive full Pell and Cal Grant, then that is a possible $14,500 available financial aid to go towards school cost (~5,500 for Pell, ~$9,000 for Cal ((caveat: the Cal drops to ~8,000 for next year’s applicants)) ). Did SCU give an FA letter already that shows they anticipate you to receive Pell or Cal? Bear in mind you must have an extremely low EFC from FAFSA to qualify for the max amount of Pell.</p>
<p>Basically for SCU, your potential (best case) would look like:
$22,000 institutional need-based grant
$5,550 Pell grant
$9,000 Cal grant
$5,500 student loan
$42,050 total package</p>
<p>You would be able to subtract or adjust any amounts as you see fit to determine how affordability looks for you. For example, if you receive the amounts above and plan to live on campus, then you will need to cover tuition and R&B (room and board) up front. Tuition + R&B at SCU is ~$53,000, so . . . </p>
<p>53,000
-42,050
$10,950 that you would need to pay out of pocket in cash up front or in payment installments throughout the school year. Plus you would still need to pay out of pocket for transportation and any other misc living expenses that R&B do not cover.</p>
<p>That $10,950 can also be chipped away with outside and/or private scholarships.</p>
<p>Are you following the math? This is just an overview example and you will need to adjust this outline based on any actual figures you receive from Pell, or if SCU does actually send you a revised aid offer (which is highly unlikely however, since you have filed CCS and they typically go off of that for enough determination - at this point your FAFSA will determine Pell eligibility and qualify you for use of student loans, but SCU will most likely not pay attention to your EFC now).</p>
<p>Yeah, I figured. Unfortunately I’m not a CA resident, but I’m expecting to receive some Pell grants, however not the maximum amount. That’s obviously the best case scenario, and I’m prepared to pay much more than $10,000 after all aid comes through, I’m just hoping the cost will stay relatively under $35,000. It’s difficult to project costs now, but thank you for your help, it’s much appreciated!</p>
<p>
Most unfortunate - both financially and culturally. /sarcasm</p>
<p>If you’re prepared to pay < $35,000, then the $22,000 institutional grant puts you very near that number (~$31,000 per projected COA on SCU’s website). Any Pell will bring you even lower than that.</p>
<p>Best of luck.</p>
<p>eseiller, your original post is a bit confusing at the end; ‘financial aid’ offers are not usually based on academic stats, ‘merit aid’ is. Your stats are similar to my son’s (now a freshman at SCU). He also had a 31 ACT, similar GPA, 7 AP’s, loads of EC’s and leadership positions, lots of community service. His original financial aid package was the final financial aid package, so unless something drastically changed from your original financial profile, I wouldn’t count on more (although you never know…). </p>
<p>Our understanding (confirmed by everyone we talked to later) was that all merit awards were offered at the time of admission, although once again, this may not be the case this year. My son was not offered any merit aid either, and we are also out of state. I think the ‘median’ stats line can be quite confusing and misleading for applicants hoping for merit aid, it was very tough to guage how it was awarded last year.</p>
<p>Wish you all the best, my son is very happy with his decision to attend SCU, and I am as well.</p>
<p>
This is exactly why I like to point out that SCU never posts amounts for their merit awards on their FA website, which most other private schools do. I think SCU likes the flexibility of arbitrarily being able to give or take aid to allocate more to one student over the other in hopes of attracting applicants with higher stats to boost the school’s overall scores. This is, of course, solely my opinion, but I’ve done a lot of research, and I think this is a very likely course of action for SCU to do.</p>
<p>Anyone ever call the FA office (or even better, speak with someone in person on campus) about how they determine merit aid from year to year? I’ll bet you a dog’s whistle that answers will be as generic and vague as possible. It’s a shame that they leave students in the dark, always having to guess if they should/could/would receive merit aid. They want the student to send in their application fee with the student expecting or suspecting they have the academic qualifications for at least some merit aid, which is a reasonable assumption considering they may have determined from other private school’s FA websites that have the qualifications for merit aid posted right there that the student meets the qualifications, sometimes by a long shot, for that school.</p>
<p>Which brings be back to another issue I’ve raised in the past: SCU’s tuition and fees are $40,527/yr, which is only a ~$700 difference from Stanford University of $41,250/yr - and although other private schools in the state aren’t much further, they are all farther away from Stanford’s tuition rate than SCU. None of the ones below even break the $40,000 mark (all are ~$38,000 or less excluding USD). I was talking to a friend very recently, who is an SCU alum, and my wife (also an alum), and my friend made in interesting remark to the effect, “SCU has gotten so expensive, and I don’t really see the justifications. When we attended (she graduated in 2009) it was a considerably cheaper (indeed it was in the $35,000 range). I’m not sure I would be able to afford to attend SCU if it cost as much then as it does now.” Since I’m a numbers nut, I figured ‘well maybe 3-4 years of inflation explains it?’ Nope, inflation from 2009-2012 would have made tuition at SCU ~$38,600, so SCU has increased tuition and fees rates at a high rate than inflation for at least the past 3-4 years. Technically, educational costs as a whole have increased faster than inflation for decades, but I’m just trying to point out that SCU is probably the biggest culprit of this among the school’s peer private institutions. Just so it is also clear: SCU is no Stanford calibur school in many (but not all) regards, although SCU is apparently trying to act like it at the financial aid level with having high cost and (wat seems to be) no merit aid. Just sayin’ . . .
[About</a> Santa Clara University - Tuition](<a href=“http://www.scu.edu/about/tuition.cfm]About”>About SCU - Santa Clara University)
$40,527
[Tuition</a> and Fees, 2012-13 | Student Affairs](<a href=“http://studentaffairs.stanford.edu/registrar/students/tuition-fees_12-13]Tuition”>http://studentaffairs.stanford.edu/registrar/students/tuition-fees_12-13)
$41,250
[University</a> of San Francisco (USF) - Tuition and Fees Schedule for Academic Year 2012-13](<a href=“http://www.usfca.edu/onestop/Tuition_and_Billings/Tuition_and_Fees/Tuition_and_Fees_Schedule_for_Academic_Year_2012-2013/]University”>http://www.usfca.edu/onestop/Tuition_and_Billings/Tuition_and_Fees/Tuition_and_Fees_Schedule_for_Academic_Year_2012-2013/)
$38,490
[Tuition</a> & Fees | Saint Mary’s College](<a href=“http://www.stmarys-ca.edu/tuition]Tuition”>http://www.stmarys-ca.edu/tuition)
$38,300
[Undergraduate</a> Tuition & Fees 2012/2013](<a href=“http://www.lmu.edu/about/services/controller/osfs/studentaccounts/fees/2012_2013_Academic_Year/undergrad.htm]Undergraduate”>http://www.lmu.edu/about/services/controller/osfs/studentaccounts/fees/2012_2013_Academic_Year/undergrad.htm)
$38,212
[Tuition</a> and Fees (Stockton)](<a href=“http://www.pacific.edu/Campus-Life/Student-Services/Student-Accounts/Stockton-Tuition-and-Fees.html]Tuition”>http://www.pacific.edu/Campus-Life/Student-Services/Student-Accounts/Stockton-Tuition-and-Fees.html)
$37,800
[Tuition</a> and Fees - University of San Diego](<a href=“http://www.sandiego.edu/admissions/tuition_and_fees.php]Tuition”>http://www.sandiego.edu/admissions/tuition_and_fees.php)
$39,486</p>
<p>turtlerock, I saw the similar post from you before that SCU has almost the same tuition with Stanford, but the two schools are not the same caliber. I agree with you. </p>
<p>If my child had the stat for Stanford, the choice was obvious. But the fact is my child didn’t even bother to apply for Stanford. So we saved that $55 application fee. Just saying.</p>
<p>
I completely get what you’re saying. For the record, I too passed on applying to Stanford to save the $90 application fee (it was $90 when I was applying to schools).</p>
<p>But that’s what bothers me sometimes: Some people like to equate SCU as a “smaller Stanford” for all the students who want that type of school/experience, but don’t have the academic prowess to compete for a spot. To me, that’s like saying “(fill in the blank) car is like the poor man’s Mercedes.” That doesn’t bother me - I think it’s a good thing there can be a good alternative for many students if they feel Stanford is out of their reach, but the thing with the “poor man’s Mercedes” is that he doesn’t have to pay Mecedes prices to have the alternative. With SCU (the ‘alternative’ we are talking about) you are paying the same price as getting the real Mercedes, but you aren’t getting all the same line items that a Mercedes provides. The alternative materials are good (or great) for sure, but not of Mercedes quality, but do include the Mercedes price.</p>
<p>I’ve also spoken to a student who said they were accepted to Stanford and SCU. He said he chose SCU not because it was cheaper (though he said it was only a little cheaper overall for him and his family than Stanford), but because at Stanford he felt more pressure (from family and family friends) to be a perfectly focused student - destined to do great things without expection - and he felt that would distract him from doing things he was happy doing other than academics: like clubs with friends, enjoying doing many things on the weekends, just enjoying being a student, etc, etc. He said not to be mistaken - he did have to work hard to succeed at SCU, but he felt SCU was more about what he wanted out of his education, and unfortunately those around him were making Stanford what they wanted him to become of his education. I called him crazy for passng up Stanford, but I could respect that take on it. I understand that SCU is not just full of under achievers who could not make it to Stanford (my wife graduated from SCU for crying out loud, and I think she’s far from under achieving - she’s actually had to come a long way out of poverty and on-and-off homelessness in her youth, plus living with T1 diabetes, to make it to be a student at SCU!), though there certainly are anough students whose families have enough money to “get them in SCU’s door”, but I’m simply stating that if we all agree that SCU is not Stanford caliber, then why should we be paying Stanford prices for the alternative?</p>
<p>I didn’t know Stanford’s app fee is $90. I just threw the number since that was SCU’s app fee at the time.</p>
<p>You seem singling out SCU a lot. You mentioned SCU is not clear in determine merit aid. Isn’t this a common practice in many private schools? Based on OP’s stat, do USF, USD, Chapman etc. have a clear policy for the merit award amount that OP should get? </p>
<p>Now to your last sentence, "but I’m simply stating that if we all agree that SCU is not Stanford caliber, then why should we be paying Stanford prices for the alternative? " So what tuition SCU should be at you think is reasonable? 3K lower same as USF, then it could be called a good alternative?</p>
<p>You bring SCU and Stanford side by side many times, is it because some people call it a “smaller SCU” (although this is the first time I hear it)? I never hear you comment USF’s tuition is only 3K lower than Stanford, but is not at Stanford’s caliber. Is 3K that much different. I’m not here to defend SCU’s tuition or merit aid policy, just have trouble understand some of your points.</p>
<p>^ I mean “smaller Stanford” in last paragraph.</p>
<p>
It’s more common for privates to have fairly detailed outlines on their websites that explain each merit scholarship, the requirements to qualify, and the approximate amounts. Example below.</p>
<p>
Actually, yes.
USF: [University of San Francisco (USF) - University Grants & Scholarships](<a href=“http://www.usfca.edu/onestop/Financial”>http://www.usfca.edu/onestop/Financial</a></em>Aid/Grants<em>and</em>Scholarships/University<em>Grants</em>and<em>Scholarship/)
USD: [USD: Course Catalogs: Undergraduate Students](<a href=“http://www.sandiego.edu/catalogs/undergraduate/financial”>http://www.sandiego.edu/catalogs/undergraduate/financial</a></em>aid.php)
SCU: [Santa</a> Clara University - Financial AidSCU Awards](<a href=“http://www.scu.edu/financialaid/SCU-Awards.cfm]Santa”>Financial Aid - Santa Clara University)</p>
<p>I included SCU’s for easy reference. As you can see nearly every single institutional merit award is classified as “Awards: Vary”. USF’s is quite more detailed in the specifics, which helps students determine what they should be receiving. USD’s, while not as great as USF’s is still better than SCU’s by giving determined requirements and award amounts for some, but not most of their scholarships.</p>
<p>
This can be addressed in conjunction below.</p>
<p>
^As I stated before, and I’ll make it very clear this time, I think all private schools (USF, USD, all of 'em) start at some very high prices as all their tuition and fee increases have outpaced inflation and the overall cost of education has outpaced inflation for decades. Again, I just think that SCU is the biggest culprit of this issue (along with other financially motivated situations) among their peers (that would be private schools in California). I rarely say such things on observation or specualtion alone - I have been able to back up my claims about SCU with the statistical analysis that is made available to everyone with an internet connection and I happily post those sources when I make my claims. They are my personal opinions, but based on the research I have conducted that I try to explain for others to at least understand, but I do not require them to agree with.</p>
<p>I’ll state it for a 3rd time: No school in CA is perfect for every student, but some make it easier in some ways than others, especially financially.</p>
<p>So to answer the “I never hear you comment USF’s tuition is only 3K lower than Stanford, but is not at Stanford’s caliber. Is 3K that much different”: I think both USF and SCU (and many other schools) should be able address the justifications of their tuition increases (read: not necessarily lower them), which I think would be doing the students some justice in at least explaining the situation of why “SCU costs relatively the same, and closer so than their peers, as Stanford”. Alas, these are private institutions and I’ll be the first one to say they can do whatever the heck they wish with their money, but at least do some students a favor and be transparent about it. In economics it’s calle information asymmetry - where not all sides of exchange know the same bits of information which does not allow one side or more to make the most informed rational decision. Sometimes information asymmetry is on accident, sometimes on purpose (as with the housing bubble and recent financial crisis). This is really a much bigger issue that I’m prodding at, but we are in SCU’s sub-forum, so this is where I think my opinion and reasoning on SCU should be put. Is 3k that much different? Relatively, no - but to a student that can’t afford a Mercedes, it doesn’t help them much when the cost of an alternative is relatively not much different.</p>
<p>As to the “smaller Stanford” reference, seriously I indeed think it was a current student here on CC in SCU’s sub-forum that described it that way for a prospective student.</p>
<p>turtlerock - I disagree with your claim that “it’s more common for privates to have fairly detailed outlines on their websites that explain each merit scholarship, the requirements to qualify, and the approximate amounts”, specifically in the case of USD. Nowhere does it give any specific information on the requirements to qualify and approximate amounts for USD merit scholarships. Even the USF website says that the stats listed are “guidelines only”, so definitely not a clear policy there either as to what a student “should be receiving”. </p>
<p>I agree with a_mom in thinking that no private school, and most publics for that matter, will guarantee a prospective applicant a specific dollar amount of merit based on their stats; that would be extremely reckless on their part as budgets and applicant pools vary so greatly from year to year. </p>
<p>From personal experience, having attended admissions office presentations at both USD and SCU within the last year, I can tell you that we came away expecting my son to garner about the same overall aid at SCU and USD. (This came straight from admission office reps at both schools in private conversations based on his stats, not from student tour guides.) In the end, he received a small merit award from USD, but no financial aid (other than loans). From SCU, he was offered a small grant and significant financial aid (other than loans). So in our case, SCU’s offer was MUCH better overall than USD’s. (Worked out fine, his attraction to SCU was much greater than to USD.) Based on our research, this proved to us that most colleges simply cannot, and will not, guarantee merit awards because of the greatly differing applicant pools. </p>
<p>As far as comparisons to Stanford, it can be apples and oranges, depending on your field of study. My son wanted to attend a college with a 4 year undergraduate business program. Stanford does not have an undergraduate business program. (Yes, they have an economics specific undergrad program, but that is not his area of interest.) Therefore, your “poor man’s Mercedes” analogy really doesn’t hold water in this regard; his “Mercedes” (not-business) degree from Stanford would, in fact, be worth much less to him personally than his “fill in the blank” (business) degree from SCU. I suspect that this would be the case for the majority of students seeking undergraduate business degrees, especially those who will be seeking business employment prior to going back to school for an MBA.</p>
<p>
Schools revise all budgetary items based on financial status of the school every year - Financial Aid (need-based and merit) is an item in the school budget and they have the opportunity to adjust the allocation of revenue to it every year. Schools operate very much like a business, and I can guarantee you they have a specific amount set aside each year based on trends from previous years and know exactly how much they have to work with. Like a business would say “Rent for our offices was $1500 last year. We should set aside at least that much for this year, plus a little more in case rents are raised (because it is unlikely, but possible, that they will go down).” No university, especially one with a $700M endowment, will be essentially “playing it by ear” in determining how much they will be giving out in aid funds from year to year. That would be very irresponsible of them to their investors and trustees. They know, whether they tell you or not.</p>
<p>I would agree the applicant pools vary in certain measures from year to year, but the school knows this and so too does the school’s budget vary to accommodate. </p>
<p>
An example from the USD link:
IMO, that is giving a specific requirement and a fairly specific expected award amount. You may disagree, but that’s what I see, which I would contest it better than anything SCU is placing on their website for the general public to see. Also, notice the first bolded portion supports what I mean by schools knowing year to year how much they can give for a specific item - hence, it is “determined annually”.</p>
<p>Again as I’ve mentioned before
USF and USD are not saints compared to SCU, but IMO SCU is not doing enough of the same things that schools like USF and USD (and other privates) are doing to assist students and their families in obtaining all the information they can to mitigate asymmetric information, and therefore not making the best rational decision.</p>
<p>
From my personal experience, having spoken to my close co-worker, who is an SCU alum and whose mother works in SCU’s budget office, there are reasons SCU offers more to one student over another student with no discernible correlation to the general public.</p>
<p>
I agree in the academic sense that they are not the same, which IMO should follow that financially they should not be the same - but as I’ve pointed out SCU is the most financially similar to Stanford than all, if not most, all other private CA schools.</p>
<p>A 4th time -.-
I say especially financially, but “some ways than others” would mean that all other areas are also debatable, including academic.</p>
<p>"
Choral Scholars</p>
<p>Choral scholars are selected on the basis of audition through the Department of Fine Arts. While the amount of the scholarship is determined annually, it typically covers almost half of tuition and is renewable for up to four years for an undergraduate student, subject to a student maintaining a 3.0 GPA, participating in a specific program curriculum, and sustaining involvement in the choral scholars singing group.
"</p>
<p>“IMO, that is giving a specific requirement and a fairly specific expected award amount”</p>
<p>Come on, the 3.0 GPA is the GPA requirement in college to maintain the scholarship, it is NOT a 3.0 GPA in HS GPA will be awarded Choral Scholars. </p>
<p>SCU website also list the Provost scholarship is half tuition, the requirement to maintain it for 4-years in another detailed document.
[Santa</a> Clara University - Financial AidSCU Awards](<a href=“http://www.scu.edu/financialaid/SCU-Awards.cfm]Santa”>Financial Aid - Santa Clara University)</p>
<p>[Santa</a> Clara University - Financial AidPutting It Together](<a href=“http://www.scu.edu/financialaid/Putting-It-Together.cfm]Santa”>Financial Aid - Santa Clara University)</p>
<p>turtlerock, in the page 9 of this pdf document, it also states to maintain 3.0 GPA to keep the 1/2 tuition of SCU’s Provost Scholarship. Similar requirement, what makes you feel USD’s Choral scholarship is “giving a specific requirement and a fairly specific expected award amount” while SCU’s Provost scholarship is not.</p>
<p>"A 4th time -.-
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlerock
I’ll state it for a 3rd time: No school in CA is perfect for every student, but some make it easier in some ways than others, especially financially.
I say especially financially, but “some ways than others” would mean that all other areas are also debatable, including academic.
"</p>
<p>I have no problem with the above comment, you don’t have to repeat so many times. The one I have trouble is your last sentence in post#10, ** "though there certainly are anough students whose families have enough money to “get them in SCU’s door”, but I’m simply stating that if we all agree that SCU is not Stanford caliber, then why should we be paying Stanford prices for the alternative? "**</p>
<p>I want to ask, why do a student/parent has to use Stanford as a stickyard if another school is a better fit and the family can afford it? Didn’t you also say “No school in CA is perfect for every student” ?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Are you refering to tuition here? FYI -</p>
<p>HarveyMudd $44,159 [Cost</a> of Attendance | Harvey Mudd College Admission](<a href=“http://newwww.hmc.edu/admission/afford/cost-of-attendance/]Cost”>http://newwww.hmc.edu/admission/afford/cost-of-attendance/)
USC $43,722 <a href=“http://www.usc.edu/admission/fa/applying_receiving/undergraduates1/costs.html[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/admission/fa/applying_receiving/undergraduates1/costs.html</a>
Pepperdine $42,520 <a href=“http://seaver.pepperdine.edu/financialassistance/costs/budget-costs.htm[/url]”>http://seaver.pepperdine.edu/financialassistance/costs/budget-costs.htm</a></p>
<p>a_mom: I agree, turtlerock has the blinders on and refuses to acknowledge that SCU and USD are virtually identical in their disclosure of scholarship information. Not sure what his beef is with SCU, buts it’s been an ongoing thing for at least the year and a half that I’ve been following SCU on CC!</p>
<p>turtlerock: your responses make no sense…</p>
<p>“USF and USD are not saints compared to SCU, but IMO SCU is not doing enough of the same things that schools like USF and USD (and other privates) are doing to assist students and their families in obtaining all the information they can to mitigate asymmetric information, and therefore not making the best rational decision.” </p>
<p>Wouldn’t this be symmetric information? Aren’t families trying to compare apples to apples? And your use of the word “mitigate” in this sentence…really? </p>
<p>“From my personal experience, having spoken to my close co-worker, who is an SCU alum and whose mother works in SCU’s budget office, there are reasons SCU offers more to one student over another student with no discernible correlation to the general public.”</p>
<p>Really. Doesn’t EVERY college in the country make these same decisions on who to offer more aid to? How would a third-hand connection in the BUDGET office have any idea what criteria the ADMISSIONS committee is using to offer scholarships? “No discernible correlation to the general public”…what general public? Did you mean applicant pool in general?</p>
<p>“I agree in the academic sense that they are not the same, which IMO should follow that financially they should not be the same - but as I’ve pointed out SCU is the most financially similar to Stanford than all, if not most, all other private CA schools.”</p>
<p>You are taking my quote out of context. I never stated that I felt that Stanford and SCU are academically not the same. That is YOUR statement, not mine. I said that an SCU degree is more valuable than a Stanford degree for my son. Therefore, in this case, perhaps Stanford should be LESS expensive than SCU.</p>
<p>“I’ll state it for a 3rd time: No school in CA is perfect for every student, but some make it easier in some ways than others, especially financially.”</p>
<p>Doesn’t matter how many times you state it, the fact is that for us, SCU made it very easy, USD did not. Whatever your past experience was in this regard, perhaps you should seek some more up-to-date information.</p>
<p>eseiller: do your own research in your college search. Please take anything you read on CC (especially from posters whose only experience with a school are outdated and not first-hand) with a very large grain of salt!!</p>