Financial/Merit Aid for Middle Income Families

Paying for College
1

<p>Hi:</p>

<p>Are Yale, Harvard, and Princeton the only schools to offer some financial aid to upper middle class applicants (families earning 100-175K)?</p>

<p>Do any other schools have simillar programs or tend to match financial aid offers from these schools? Also, do schools who say they offer no merit aid sometimes offer at least some assistance to a strong applicant they wish to attract?</p>

<p>I've done some reading on these boards, but I'm finding it difficult to unravel all these financial/merit aid questions.</p>

2

<p>I guess it depends on what you consider to be financial aid. At any school, a student can take out a small unsub loan to cover costs.</p>

<p>However, other schools do not have the aid that HYP does for upper income students with only one student in college. So, if your family’s income is high, you can expect no help except for the small loan above ($5500 for freshmen).</p>

<p>If your family income is high, and they can’t afford their expected contribution, then you must apply to some BIG merit schools that give ASSURED scholarships.</p>

<p>do schools who say they offer no merit aid sometimes offer at least some assistance to a strong applicant they wish to attract?</p>

<p>No. FA is based on need. Scholarships are based on merit. If a school doesn’t give merit, then they don’t give merit. However, if you want to apply to a couple of non-merit schools just to see, then go ahead. My nephew had perfect stats, had a good hook, and got ZERO aid from Harvard. They saw that his parents had a high income so he got nothing. </p>

<p>I think you’re confusing the fact that some schools give “preferential packaging” to kids that they want WHO HAVE NEED. What that means is that schools who don’t guarantee to meet 100% of need might do so for a child that they want WHO HAS NEED. If that student had no need, they wouldn’t get anything. </p>

<p>And, keep in mind, that even if you have a small amount of determined need, many schools will generally just cover that with a loan, work-study, and/or student contribution. Still no free money.</p>

<p>Again, since it sounds like you have little or no need, you need to make sure that several of your schools give big merit for stats. There are some schools that have competitive merit, but you can’t depend on those. You can apply to a few just to see if you win a scholarship, but to be safe, you need to also apply to some schools that will give assured merit for stats. </p>

<p>What are your stats?</p>

<p>How much will your parents pay each year?</p>

3

<p>Some of the other ivies and top LACs appoach the generosity of HYPS. And only those top colleges will consider matching each other. Keep in mind that it’s also not all about income. Generous schools also look at assets.</p>

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<p>Thank you very much for your help, Redroses and Mom2Collegekids. Actually, I’m a mom too. To answer your question, Mom2Collegekids: My student’s stats are excellent: National Merit semifinalist, high SAT (over 2300) and SATII scores, 4.0., multiple APs and honors, and focused extracurriculars. </p>

<p>We had some friends in a similar but slightly better financial situation (with two working middle class earners in the family) and an equally strong student, and their daughter was offered about $22K from Yale. So we just wondered if that would be possible at other similar schools. If we could get 20-25K in aid per year, that would help us immensely. We are near that cut-off point for income/assets where we probably won’t qualify for fiancial aid at most schools. We do have some savings–but, of course, not nearly enough and also are worried about an uncertain financial picture over the next few years.</p>

<p>RedRoses: What are the top liberal arts colleges that might be willing to match a package from Harvard or Yale? Amherst and Williams? Is Brown included?</p>

<p>Thanks very much. Unfortunately, my student is not as enthusiastic about applying to some very fine schools that do offer merit aid–none of the kids at school seem to even know about or consider these colleges!</p>

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<p>Stanford has a nice explanation on their website, and several of the Ivy League schools have similar explanations or calculators on theirs. But there’s a huge difference there between an income of $110K – which still gets substantial aid at some of these schools, and $175K, which might not garner much at all.</p>

<p>I think that the next layer of schools (Amherst, Williams, Middlebury,…) are much less likely to have the capacity to provide substantial aid to students with family incomes at $150K or above.</p>

6

<p>Stanford’s FA policies are similar to HYP. From our family’s experience, no schools other than these four offer similar FA to families making 100-200k/yr. While I don’t have any personal experience with S, information from other members makes me believe that their FA is very similar to HYP. [Note: we are on the lower end of this income range but have higher than average assets, so YMMV]. </p>

<p>The year before these schools implemented their new FA policies, we received FA from HYP (didn’t apply to S), but not Amherst, Brown, WUSTL, etc. As a soph transfer, with the new FA policies, Y gave us 22k in grants plus WS while Dartmouth, Amherst and Brown said that we had zero need. </p>

<p>Schools that compete for the same students will often match offers from peer or higher schools. Fr year, B matched the offers from the other schools and I suspect that Amherst would have too if we had asked, not sure whether WUSTL would have or not. </p>

<p>Preferred packaging is when a need only school offers an enhanced FA package to a student that it really wants. This does happen, but there are so many top students applying for the level school you’re talking about, so the qualities/accomplishments are going to likely need to be out of the ordinary.</p>

<p>x-posted w/arabrab</p>

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<p>I’m not too fond of the “cast a wide net” school of thinking except in situations like you describe which is very similar to our situation in that we “budgeted” for our state flagship which means being expected to pay around $25-30,000 per year. when our kids looked elsewhere we did need to chase the money so to speak as we were unwilling to take on PLUS loans that would amount to taking on another mortage with multiple kids late in life. With a high stats kiddo you can shop around at the schools that are slightly less selective and have “merit” money for the high stats kids and some of the state flagships that are generous with high stat kids. There are some really good threads regarding these types of situations. The Ivies and brass ring schools are certainly generous with mid to upper middle class families but not at all a sure bet for anyone. Basically there are schools that give merit money for high stats, some comes along with the admissions offer and are published generally on the websites, some require a separate applications. Then there are schools that are generous with grant money which is generally unknown until the finaid offers come in. Some have financial aid calculators on their websites that can give you an idea of where you might fall. You are correct though in that it takes much reading and research to discern annecdotally which schools tend to be generous with “free money” and which schools are notoriously stingy with “tuition discounting.” Sometimes it helps to search on the specific colleges of interest and read those threads.</p>

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<p>*
We had some friends in a similar but slightly better financial situation (with two working middle class earners in the family) and an equally strong student, and their daughter was offered about $22K from Yale. So we just wondered if that would be possible at other similar schools. If we could get 20-25K in aid per year, that would help us immensely*</p>

<p>If the family’s income/assets are high enough that they shouldn’t have gotten aid (or much aid), do not assume that you’ll get the same. I don’t want to falsely accuse, but some people do some fancy-footwork to get aid that they shouldn’t get. Or, they may have more than one child in college.</p>

<p>What would you estimate their income to be? If it’s around $150k, then they may have gotten a $22k grant from Yale - but do NOT expect that kind of grant from other non-HYP schools… </p>

<p>And, of course, if your child doesn’t get into HYP, then the standard could be worse since other privates will expect more family contribution from the same income/assets. Only a tiny number of schools (HYP and maybe another) have these unique formulas that only expect those families to contribute about 10% of their income. The other privates would expect such a family to pay everything.</p>

<p>A family with an income of $150k and one child in college probably would not any money from most privates.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much to all of you! Yes, I will look around for those schools that might offer merit aid, but the trick is to find a few of those that appeal to my kid and also offer a suitable program.</p>

<p>By reading some of these threads, I’ve already figured out a few possibilities (such as Brandeis, which apparently offers less merit aid now but still mght be a good prospect).</p>

<p>Momofthreeboys: Up till now, I could never understand why some studens apply to so many schools, but I think you’re right that in our situation it makes sense to “cast a wide net.” But I do want to be thoughtful in making suggestions since it doesn’t make sense to pressure a student to apply to a school just because of merit aid if he or she has no interest in attending.</p>

<p>Entomom: It’s good to know that Brown and possibly Amherst might be willing to match an offer from Harvard or Yale. It begins to seem as if a student should apply to a range of these schools in the hope of being admitted to one or two in order to be in the position of maybe getting a package matched. But if that doesn’t work out, the family should be prepared to fund the whole cost (somehow…).</p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Momof2college kids: Yes, I would estimate the family income of my acquaintances at above that level: 150K or maybe a little higher. Anyway, you’re quite right that it’s impossible to know anyone else’s particular circumstances.</p>

<p>At least I’ve gained a clearer picture of this process. We’ll have to hope that everything comes together for our family: school that makes our kid happy, reasonable financing, etc.</p>

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<p>*We are near that cut-off point for income/assets where we probably won’t qualify for fiancial aid at most schools. We do have some savings–but, of course, not nearly enough and also are worried about an uncertain financial picture over the next few years.
…</p>

<p>Thanks very much. Unfortunately, **my student is not as enthusiastic about applying to some very fine schools that do offer merit aid–**none of the kids at school seem to even know about or consider these colleges! *</p>

<p>Well, you have to be upfront with your child. You don’t want a situation next spring where your child has acceptances but not enough aid to attend. At that point, there’s no “do-over”. The best merit is given to those who apply in the fall.</p>

<p>I would INSIST that my child apply to AT LEAST 3-4 schools that give BIG MERIT! One or two can be competitive merit, but at least 2 schools need to give ASSURED big merit.</p>

<p>You need these financial match/safeties as back-ups. </p>

<p>It’s ok to apply to some top schools just to see if the finances work out, but you need some “fall back” schools. I don’t believe in having just one fall back school because then the student feels railroaded into one school. A person likes to have some choice.</p>

<p>I realize that students are often not enthusiastic about applying to schools that their friends aren’t applying to or aren’t prestigious. Some kids will be upset that their financial situation isn’t the same as someone else’s. </p>

<p>** But, there are high stats kids this application season that will have to go to their local community college because they stubbornly would not apply to any schools that would give them assured big merit and they can’t afford the schools that they got accepted to. Some thought that they could get loans or that the money would come from somewhere. **</p>

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<p>*It’s good to know that Brown and possibly Amherst might be willing to match an offer from Harvard or Yale. *</p>

<p>FYI…</p>

<p>Brown refused to match an offer from a student who I’ve been helping. This is a lowish income URM male (very desirable), Val of his school, high stats. Yet Brown would NOT match his offers from Columbia or MIT.</p>

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<p>Ariel, most schools will not “match” offers and bristle at the mention of negotiating, so that is not an approach you’ll want to take with them. They may agree to take a look at other awards from similar schools, however, and see if they may be able to use a similar calculation to repackage the student. Their reasoning is that since Profile schools require/use different info, an additional piece of information may have been considered by the school with the better award. But, in any case, it’s a gamble you’d be better off without. The alternative is that YOU can “match” FA by seeking schools that offer merit aid, as opposed to need-based aid, if your income exceeds a cap at most of the need-only schools. There are also some need-only schools, like Hamilton, that guarantee to meet 100% of need for all students. Although need, and aid, are substantially reduced for higher incomes, it is not capped.</p>

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<p>*</p>

<p>By reading some of these threads, I’ve already figured out a few possibilities (such as Brandeis, which apparently offers less merit aid now but still might be a good prospect).*</p>

<p>Well, you’re smart to be considering this now. Since many privates are now costing in the $55k range, and you’ve determined that you need $20k-25k in help, that means that you need to find schools that will give more than half tuition scholarships…at least as backups. </p>

<p>Once your child understands (and accepts) that you can only pay about $30k per year, he’ll be more open to looking at schools that will work as back ups in case the top schools won’t give much because of your income/assets. </p>

<p>You need to help your child understand that your budget is not that flexible. Some kids think that if “push comes to shove” parent will relent and pay whatever it takes. If that’s not possible, he needs to understand that clearly now. He needs to know that you’re not being “cheap” or “mean,” you can only pay what you can pay. Right?</p>

<p>Brandeis is good to have on the list as a “possible” source of merit money. You’ll need to have two different types of merit schools on your list…some like Brandeis that don’t guarantee any merit money, and some that do offer assured merit for high stats.</p>

<p>Yes, I will look around for those schools that might offer merit aid, but the trick is to find a few of those that appeal to my kid and also offer a suitable program.</p>

<p>It’s really not that hard unless your child refuses to consider anything but the tippy top schools. And, if that’s the case, he needs to understand that he may end up with NOTHING because acceptance rates are low and your income/assets may be too high to get much (if anything). Would your son really want to end up at the local state school or community college because he wouldn’t consider applying to some big merit schools?</p>

<p>Some families have a policy that each child must apply to a couple of “parent picks”. Those “parent picks” can be financial safety schools that can serve as back ups if the favorite choices don’t work out.</p>

<p>CC Important links to Automatic Assured Scholarships…
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Mom2collegekids: “I would INSIST that my child apply to AT LEAST 3-4 schools that give BIG MERIT! One or two can be competitive merit, but at least 2 schools need to give ASSURED big merit.”</p>

<p>This is very good advice! I did not even realize that there were two different kinds of merit aid schools. I will definiitely check out the thread you provided. No, we don’t want to end up in a bind because we really didn’t think through the realities of this process. I like the idea of “parent picks” and will discuss that approach with the family.</p>

<p>sk8rmom: You make a good point, and in any case I would be terrible at haggling even if schools were willing to do it. </p>

<p>Perhaps my best option is to start seeking out and providing information to my student so that we can all get more comfortable with a broader list of schools. This board has been and will continue to be an invaluable resource. Thank you so much!</p>

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<p>Ariel…you need to discuss finances with your kiddo. If your family is only willing to contribute X dollars per year, you child needs to hear that. The thing is…those VERY generous schools use the CSS Profile (or their own form which contains similar financial information)…and what THEY compute as your contribution might not match what YOU feel you can contribute. If you really have these financial contraints…then your child should know that they will NOT be able to attend a college that costs more than what you can pay. This may not make your child happy now…but it’s a conversation that is better to have now than to have when all the acceptances come in…and the finances DO matter.</p>

<p>Knowing the “college budget” is an important component of crafting a list of schools to apply to.</p>

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<p>*“I would INSIST that my child apply to AT LEAST 3-4 schools that give BIG MERIT! One or two can be competitive merit, but at least 2 schools need to give ASSURED big merit.”</p>

<p>This is very good advice! I did not even realize that there were two different kinds of merit aid schools.*</p>

<p>When you look at college websites on their scholarship pages, look to see if EVERY child with the specified stats gets the scholarship, or if only some will get the scholarship. That’s the difference. </p>

<p>Sometimes schools are kind of vague, they won’t reveal how many scholarships are awarded. Some require a “competition interview weekend,” where they invite a bunch of kids to compete but then only a handful of scholarships are awarded.</p>

<p>While it’s ok to apply to a couple of schools with competitive merit, since they’re not assured, no one can depend on winning one. Some schools use these to target kids they want from unusual states or with URM status (Some think WashU and Vandy do this.)</p>

<p>Assured merit scholarships are scholarships that are awarded by having the minimum states stats. The needed stats and the scholarship amounts will be listed on the scholarship webpage of the college. Every student who meets the criteria gets the stated scholarship. Some call these automatic scholarships. Some require a sep app, some don’t. Some require a fall deadline - so be sure to check for that.</p>

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<p>I will look into these assured merit scholarships and also try to determine a few competitive merit schools (I’m thinking maybe some liberal arts colleges not in the Northeast). Thanks again, everybody!</p>

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<p>Trying to count other people’s money is not useful. Folks are often not honest about these things. They lie and exaggerate about scholarships, financial aid, salary, assets, help from family. </p>

<p>I have a friend who looked like she lived very well. She lived in an expensive house in an expensive neighborhood, kids went to expensive private high schools. But the fact of the matter was that she was inches away from bankruptcy and was eligible for food stamps. Her ex husband provided well by court order while the kids were in high school and she was allowed to live in the house without paying towards it until her kids turned 18. But she and her kids qualified for the PELL. Her daughter got the full amount, along with the maximum Seogh, a state low income college grant, an couple of outside scholarships and she also was sponsored by a company through National Merit. In a nutshell, her mother could say that she was on scholarship at a college that did not give merit money, and used PROFILE for financila aid. She did not get a dime of grant money from the college for either need or merit. All from other sources.</p>

<p>I know other families who have outside help in living their lives. They may live in a house owned by their parents. They may be well subsidized by them. And those subsidies may well be loans or in forms of things given to them so they legitimately do not have to show up on the financial aid forms. </p>

<p>My oldest son owns a pretty decent car. Given the cost of car insurance here, and his very small salary, he should not have been able to afford the car. But we helped out and that made the difference. Also with his dad co signing, he got a 1% loan. My brother gave him a junker that he drove for a while and was able to cash towards this car. Without knowing all of this, it makes no sense that he is able to have that car.</p>

<p>I suggest that the OP run their personal numbers through some online calculators for some schools that they think their student might like. That would give them some idea what kind of financial aid they can expect. Some schools, I think Yale is one of them, do not count home equity. Someone who has a lot of their funds there and has no mortgage payment or a very small one, might well be living on a very small salary. I know that if we just did not have our mortgage and private school tuition, we could live on very little. We scrimp terribly on everything else. So if we owned our home, and had no mortgage payment as a result, and our salary was accordingly cut by that amount, we would be eligible for financial aid. </p>

<p>These are just a few out of many, many scenarios that allow folks who look like they are living well, be eligible for financial aid. You are not an auditor for these situation nor a detective. All that matters is what you can get.</p>

<p>It’s time to have a talk with your student about what you can afford. It’s a difficult one if you have raised a child so that s/he feels entitled to go to any school that admits her. S/he may totally believe the old party line of being able to go anywhere if she works hard and does well in her academics. It’s long past time that the reality of the situation is made clear. All students who need financial aid should have some financial safeties and should be looking at a wide range of possibilities since the chances of being able to go to certain colleges depend on other factors than just acceptance to the schools.</p>

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<p>^^Very true. Things are not often what they seem. I also totally believe that it is very smart for parents to be totally upfront with their kids about what they can afford. OP you have a wonderful budget to work with. You are smart to be here looking for advice and information. Be honest and upfront with your student and engage him/her in the process and you will be in great shape.</p>