<p>This would be a great time to hear again from a college rep. Veritas, I’m curious as to whether you read the post linked above from kjgc and simply choose not to believe it…?</p>
<p>The day of auditions at Unifieds Ithaca had a form to fiill out and they had you rank the top 3 (may have been 5) schools you were applying too. My D found it odd to do that right then. Not sure if they were checking their yield (obviously that didnt work this year for them) or seeing what schools were there competition.</p>
<p>Veritas - The “lesser” (I hate that concept by the way) programs really do pass on extremely talented kids for reasons that might surprise you. Reason that have nothing to do with protecting their yield. I know of a case where one of the programs passed on an EXTREMELY talented young man because of his attitude during the auditions. </p>
<p>Ken Martin posted this last year in the 2013 Rejections thread:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/15582827-post34.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/15582827-post34.html</a></p>
<p>broadway95 - The link I posted in #18 will take you to a thread that discussed at length that whole question of schools asking students about what other schools they are interested in. It was a hot button issue for awhile here on CC.</p>
<p>Argh, I overlooked the fact that KatMT had posted upthread…so we do in fact have posts from TWO college reps already talking about this issue. Sigh.</p>
<p>Broadway95, my son spent about 10 seconds debating what to do with that “ranking” request at the Ithaca audition and quickly decided to be honest. Ithaca was his third choice, and he said so–and he got in. I had read all the debate here on CC and elsewhere about how to handle it, but you have to do what feels right to you! There are SO many factors, as the college folks attest, to how these decisions are made. Not worth it to try to game the system!</p>
<p>Times3, I actually just read the link from kjgc. And it’s not that I don’t believe it…it’s that kjgc stated that is her (his? sorry, not sure if kjgc is a man or woman) perspective is “tiny” and s/he is only speaking for his/her school. </p>
<p>Kjgc also said, “We might be wrong, but why on earth would you want to go to a program that thinks less of itself than the training received at any other school?” I have two thoughts on this: first, obviously my D wants to go to the school with the best training … if they take her. She knows that the chances of getting into the big 3 or several other topped rank programs are slim to none. So, sometimes a student has no choice but to go to a program that has lesser training or a lower ranking or whatever it is. Second…c’mon! Really? Don’t you think that (and I’m leaving the MT world behind for a moment so as not to insult anyone) Podunk State University KNOWS that it has a lower reputation and yes, maybe even not as good as a program as Princeton or Yale or Dartmouth? If anyone here thinks that the schools are not aware of the hierarchy assigned to them by the outside world, they are deceiving themselves. </p>
<p>So, I guess I just think that the programs aren’t stupid. They know how they are perceived in the scheme of things, they know this group of really talented kids are going to have a ton of schools to choose from, and they would be foolish not to see the reality of that in their decision making process.</p>
<p>So, I’m not sure about the “lesser”, but all of these programs are not starting from the same place and the hard part, it seems to me, is being honest with yourself or your students about exactly where you “fit”. People auditioning for these programs range from kids who have been on Broadway as children to regional theater teens to community theater stars to high school leads to Glee watchers who think this would be fun. There’s a wide range and I do think there is a school for everyone, but it would be silly to think it’s the same school. All you have to do is YouTube some performances and you will quickly see that there is not one standard out there. Some are amazing and some look more like youth theater. There’s nothing wrong with either end of the spectrum but school X and school Y are not exactly doing the same thing and they certainly must know that.</p>
<p>If there is one thing I learned in the past year, it is that “top” doesn’t always mean “best,” and the “best” kids don’t all go to the “top” schools.</p>
<p>Couple things. One is that sometimes you don’t audition as well at one school as another. Second is that programs look for specific things. My D walked into one audition and the first thing they asked is if she was a belter. When she said no she might as well have just left the room and not sung at all.</p>
<p>Well, if they really only want belters, or blondes, or strong dancers, or short girls and tall boys, or whatever then why don’t they just say so and save us all some time and money? Perhaps, more pre-screening will help with this.</p>
<p>Just caught up on this thread. Calliene, I agree totally that “top” doesn’t mean “best,” and it certainly cannot be “best” for all the kids applying. My D hated one of the “top” schools, and told me afterwards that had she gotten in there, she would have chosen the school she is attending now (Ithaca) over that one. There is definitely an element of fit for the kids, too…they have to love the program, and they shouldn’t just go to the school with the best reputation.</p>
<p>But, I have to say that I agree with actingmt … you and your child have to be honest with yourselves about your talent level and where you might fit, b/c the schools do vary wildly in reputation and - probably - training. VeritasMT, my D sounds a little like your example…she got into NYU-Steinhardt, BoCo, Ithaca and OCU, but didn’t get into some other programs that maybe did not have as good a reputation as the ones she did get into. We were curious, but like others have said, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why things happened. I don’t think it was b/c she had a bad audition day, and in fact she was WLed at one school where she thought she had her second worst audition. Of course, having a bad audition or being sick can certainly affect whether you get in or not, but in my D’s case, she did not feel that was the case. Why did it happen? We’ll never know. For us, it doesn’t matter anymore. For you guys juggling with the applications/auditions now, it may seem important, but I don’t think there’s anything you can do about it. I guess the best advice is to try and be honest about what your child is capable of, and apply to enough schools that you have a large spectrum of types of schools.</p>
<p>And jeffandann, I’m surprised a school did that to your D. My D is not a belter. Her audition material consisted of a classical soprano song and a song that showed off her mix. Only one of the 15 schools asked if she could belt, and when she said, “Not very well,” they said “Here, we’ll teach you some tricks,” and brought her over to the piano and gave her a mini lesson. 
And she belted!</p>
<p>There is also the financial factor, which doesn’t get talked about enough. Lots of kids get into these “top” programs, but can’t afford them, or don’t want to put themselves in debt for them. These kids end up elsewhere. We met a boy at Montclair Saturday who is from NJ and got in “everywhere”, but decided in the end when it came to crunch time that Montclair’s program was “just as good” and would keep him out of debt. I can’t help but wonder about the kids that spend nearly 70K for NYU, BOCO, etc. I mean, even IF these programs were “better” (and as good as they both are I do believe that there are lesser “known” programs just as good), how does anyone afford that? And do some kids that go to these schools succeed (thus boosting the school’s rep) because they are financially in better positions to not need survival jobs and can devote more time/financial resources toward auditioning/master classes, etc?</p>
<p>And just to be clear, my D came very close to choosing BoCo. And if we had been convinced that BoCo was her ticket to success in the MT world, we would have sent her and suffered the financial consequences. BoCo is a wonderful place and I’m not in any way putting down any school, but unless you are very wealthy where cost isn’t an issue, or you get a huge scholarship so that you don’t have to borrow, cost does play into the decisions (along with a million other things) for many kids.</p>
<p>Veritas - The outside world can think what it likes. Just because a program is perceived to be a lower tier program doesn’t make the training at that program lower tier. Think of it this way. If you are a “top tier” program with your pick of the “best” kids, how hard is it to train them? If you are a “lower tier” school that is taking a mix of kids into your program - all the way from the “top” kids that are already the entire package to the kids with raw talent and potential but little training - and still turning out working professionals, what does that say about the training your program has to offer? And if industry professionals have a high opinion of the program, the training, the work ethic of the students who are coming out, aren’t those the opinions that really count?</p>
<p>My D was fortunate to have a wide range of options. She chose the program that she felt offered the “best” training for HER. Her choice surprised alot of people. But it has absolutely been a great program for HER. </p>
<p>(And kjgc is Ken Martin. He is the chair of the theatre department at CCU.)</p>
<p>I hear what you’re saying. But, there are some facts that we have to take into account.</p>
<p>1) The “top” programs don’t always get the “best” kids. Some of the “best” kids go to other programs because of cost, location, because a school simply made a mistake and overlooked a “best” kid, or because either the kid or the school doesn’t think they are a right fit. (CAVEAT: But, to a certain extent, if these “top” programs get a higher proportion of the “best” kids, then yes, they would be easier to train, and perhaps their reputation is self-perpetuating, and the quality of the program has little to do with it. But, the fact remains that these “top” programs will give opportunities to their students that other programs can’t give, like access to certain agents and casting directors).</p>
<p>2) There ARE differences among the quality of training programs. There has to be. They simply cannot all be equal. Some are better than others. </p>
<p>3) The schools don’t have to take a mix of kids. Look at Texas State. Texas State has an incredible reputation. They are not anywhere near the top of MTpragmatist’s list, probably because they are so new. So how did they get this reputation? Is it based on their large number of Broadway stars? Not yet. It’s based on expectations and the quality of the professors and the head of the MT program and the quality of the kids it is attracting. It has to be…what else could it be based on? And does Texas State take a mix of kids? I would hazard a guess that they don’t. It looks to me like many of the kids who are saying yes to Texas State also got into one or more of the “top” programs. </p>
<p>I think, austinmtmom, you were correct when you said it’s the industry professional’s opinions of the programs that matter. And I bet if we polled the industry professionals on the top ten “best” schools for MT, it would be pretty darn close to MTpragmatist’s list, or the very similar list that is in all of our heads. That’s not to say that a kid going to a school lower on the list isn’t going to be successful, or that this particular kid didn’t pick the school best for them. There are undoubtedly kids at UMich, CMU, and CCM who are never, ever going to make it. Similarly, there are kids at the lower-down-on-the-list schools who ARE going to make it. But, generally speaking, the kids who go to these top 10 schools (or some list like it) are going to have a higher likelihood of success.</p>
<p>Sigh. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Can you enlighten me as to which agents/casting directors that only those top schools can give their students access to?</p></li>
<li><p>I’m not saying they are all equal. Of course they aren’t. I’m saying don’t discount the training at a school just because the school’s “reputation” here on CC is that it is a lower tier school. Period. </p></li>
<li><p>Could it be a combination of charisma, marketing, and finances? That’s not a knock on the training at Texas State. I live right up the road and have seen many productions there. I know people who have kids in that program. But I am saying that there could be reasons that program’s reputation blew up the way it did that have nothing to do with the quality of training. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I feel like there is a certain program snobbery here on CC. And I really dislike it. But to each his/her own. You can use all the statistics you want. In the end, it’s really about whether or not you/your child gets the training/support/connections/whatever to make it in this highly competitive industry. And with that, I’m done.</p>
<p>Veritas,
In April when my daughter was deciding where to go to school, I sent her list to everyone I could think of that I knew who had some connection to the “business.” One of my college friends is an actress who has been on Broadway several times and was a COMPLETE dear and sent the list to several agents. The responses were ALL OVER the map. I heard this school is going downhill, that school produces good talent, that SAME school isn’t worth considering, go to this school, don’t go to that…!!! As my friend said, " So just tell her to go where she wants to go! In 4 years all that will matter is her audition. No one will care where she went to school!" OK, but we are all aware that if you go to certain schools, people will “assume” you must be the “best” and it will be easier to get someone to even look at you. I think that THIS is what we all want to know. One highly respected coach told us, “That may be true – for about 6 months. Then it won’t matter.” But in all the years I’ve read CC, THIS is the big unknown to me. I know which schools have great reputations, I know which ones are the hardest to get into, but I DON’T know which schools TRULY have the best training or the best faculty to prepare them for that audition 4 years away. I was really surprised during my daughter’s college search to discover that some schools with fabulous reps really weren’t all that impressive upon closer look, and some that were not that well known had really impressive programs. And I saw what I thought were fabulously talented kids not get into “good” programs, and kids that IN MY OPINION were not as impressive get into some very competitive programs. So I guess if I had any advice for the group coming up it would be: don’t be surprised by ANYTHING. Don’t count on ANYTHING. Apply to schools that you think have good programs and that you like, hope your get in somewhere, then work your butt off to get ready for that audition in 4 years. :/.</p>
<p>Joining the sigh.</p>
<p>Please do enlighten everyone who the agents/casting directors are who limit their access to only the “top” schools/programs.</p>
<p>Not only in the end, but along the way, it indeed is really about the whether or not you/your child gets the training/support/connections/whatever to make it in this highly competitive industry. My kid is getting just that, regardless of what “tier” others decide the school he attends (CCU) is. I wish the very same for each of your talented kids.</p>
<p>Before I heave one last sigh, can I say that monkey13, I LOVE that story about the auditors teaching your daughter to belt? Awesome! </p>
<p>And I agree with actingmt (I know this is controversial) that prescreens could help with the dilemma of not knowing whether a school is looking for your type. Although it didn’t save him any time/money in terms of auditioning, my son was grateful when the DePaul auditor told him “I like your work, but I’ll be straight with you, you aren’t the type we’re looking for, so we probably won’t be giving you a callback.” No mystery, no suspense, and he appreciated her being straightforward.</p>
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<p>Good point!</p>
<p>Times3~My son received the exact feedback from an auditor after a pre-screen at a theatre festival, and in his case it saved him from taking yet another day off from school to attend the official audition. It was greatly appreciated!</p>
<p>After cleansing sighs, I would like to offer these thoughts. It is likely that your children can’t imagine doing anything else. Regardless of having one acceptance or ten, BA or BFA, and regardless of “tier,” location, and finances, in the end one of the schools/programs will become “their” school/program. Their love for the art of theatre, whether refined or not going in, will sustain them throughout the course of the very demanding college years. They will be challenged wherever they are. They will learn and grow as artists wherever they are. There will be teachers and mentors and directors and fellow students who will impact them in unimaginable ways wherever they are. There is a good chance they will be happy wherever they are. They will be grateful for their family’s support and for their family being happy for them regardless of where they are. There is value in being informed, and this group was immeasurably helpful in my getting up to speed on the most basic (what I needed) lay of the land. There is an opportunity to truly enjoy being with your child through auditions. If there is one thing I wish I had known going into the whole thing several years ago it is to have really understood how little any of the outcome could be controlled or anticipated, especially by me. It is a good thing I was not in control of the outcome. If I had been it would have usurped the joy that was awaiting my son. I truly wish you all peace and much laughter along the way for the journey you have in front of you. It is a precious, precious time that can be easily overshadowed by the stress of it all.</p>