<p>i was wondering if people could rate the best programs...kinda like this:</p>
<p>best for overall mt:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.</p>
<p>best for overal/emphasis on acting:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.</p>
<p>best for overal/emphasis on music:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.</p>
<p>there are just so many good schools...so hopefully things could get cleared up a bit</p>
<p>I thought we weren't going to do this.</p>
<p>The "best program" is the best for one particular student. Ya?</p>
<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>chrisnoo:</p>
<p>"Best" is really subjective - as I tried to emphasize in my earlier post, "best" for each student varies greatly. If you mean "considered best by current reputation in the business," then CMU goes in the "emphasis on acting" list, and UM, OCU, and BoCo go in the "emphasis on music" list. "Overall best" (implying strength in at least 2 of the 3 MT areas) would include NYU, CCM, & UM. These are currently the "undisputed" top schools. Many others could fit in these lists AS WELL, depending on which casting director or director you are talking to. But again, there are MANY ways to get jobs in MT, and of course you don't even need a college degree to do so!</p>
<p>no i understand...what i meant was industry rated...i totally get that best is relative of a performer, and i agree...ive found the schools that i feel fit me best, i was just wondering bout reps in the biz...</p>
<p>Glad you found the best fit - and just to further clarify (for the sake of avoiding argument as well as to keep our students informed: the "industry" opinion to which I refer (I called it conventional widsom) is primarily New York Equity casting (although a lot of UM students get big jobs through going to Chicago open calls since it's an easier drive from UM). As I stated in my earlier post, many programs have great regional reputations and feed into the regional casting pool in their area - Baldwin Wallace, for example, has a lot of students who work in the Cleveland area and at the Carousel Dinner Theatre in Akron (a respected Equity and Equity Membership Candidacy Program theatre).</p>
<p>CoachC
I know we're trying not to "rank" programs here, but thought you might have a sense of what the industry thinks of some of the other programs that are talked about a lot on this forum: Syracuse, Ithaca, Elon, Penn State, Florida State, Webster, Otterbien, etc. If the schools you mentioned are considered to be the top teir, would some or all of these be next-tier perhaps? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Not that there couldn't be others, just that these programs seem to be mentioned over and over here on CC.</p>
<p>Of the schools you mention, the ones I have heard of OUTSIDE of CC are:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>PSU - very good regional rep in the Pittsburgh area (including PCLO employment), and good and probably growing rep in NYC - I have several students who are there or who are grads, so I know this program well - my students who are grads have been successful finding work in smaller national and European tours</p></li>
<li><p>Ithaca - really good national rep, maybe up there with the top (a lot of this is b/c of the notoriety Kerry Butler has brought to her alma mater)</p></li>
<li><p>Syracuse - hmmm, have heard good and also very bad things, to be frank...don't shoot the messenger</p></li>
<li><p>FSU has a rep of turning out MT grads who are great dancers</p></li>
<li><p>Otterbein doesn't have a national rep (yet?), but I know the young woman who was Amy in the B'way LITTLE WOMEN (with Sutton Foster) is an Otterbein grad</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I know of Elon's great rep among college program auditionees but so far no real NYC buzz about them (but hey, some impressive grad has to START the buzz for EVERY school - the UM program, for example, has gotten their real "buzz" going only within the last 5-10 years - their program is only 22 years old this year).</p>
<p>I honestly hadn't heard of Webster til CC, but it sounds like a great place...</p>
<p>In case you're wondering my "sources," they consist of having former students and/or friends involved in most current national tours and B'Way muscials, as well as several off-B'way shows and regional sit-downs (Chicago WICKED, the recently-closed Detroit ALTAR BOYZ, the Vegas companies of AVE Q and MAMMA MIA, etc.). And being a college audition coach, when interacting with these casts (through casual socialization and also through working with many cast members who do master classes with my students), I pay attention to where people have gone to school and I ask a LOT of questions about programs, reputations at auditions, the importance of showcases, etc. Over the past 10 years, I have gathered a great deal of anecdotal "evidence" that helps me guide my students - and when those students get their MT jobs, they help the "next generation."</p>
<p>BTW, if any posters or lurkers have info about working grads from any of the above schools, post 'em - I know this happened with Syracuse in another thread - but I think what distinguises "top" schools from others is that the top schools have lists that are pages and pages and PAGES long of grads who are working or have worked AS PERFORMERS in MAJOR MT venues, be they Broadway, regional, or tours. Many schools' websites list techies and arts administrators as their working alumni but VERY few MT actors, which always makes me wary right off the bat. An "established" program should have numerous grads working in NOTABLE productions.</p>
<p>Ok, now I REALLY have to do clinical reports - although this is MUCH more fun! :)</p>
<p>I don't do MT and don't post here much but I saw something on the CCPA @ Roosevelt thread that is probably best replied to here since it looks like this one was started in response to some of the discussion there. On that thread CoachC said, "Most MFA acting programs openly do NOT want students right out of college."</p>
<p>My long-term goal is to get an MFA so I did a lot of research about this last year including contacting the heads of some of the top MFA programs about what they consider to be the best undergraduate programs for that purpose. While what CoachC said may be true in general for kids that go to state universities and whatnot, I feel I should point out that there are some programs from which the MFA programs DO like to take students right out of college. The one most commonly mentioned by the MFA heads was the University of Evansville where I understand they SPECIALIZE in placing their students in the top MFAs and some of them even come to campus to recruit and hold auditions. The next most often mentioned BFA desired by the MFAs was SMU. They also said they like to take Ivy League and top LAC grads with the most often mentioned being Brown and Vassar. I found that Emory and the College of Charleston have had a lot of success putting graduates into good MFAs straight out of college, as well. If anyone is reading that knows this to be untrue for sure, I would like to know because it involves my long-term gameplan. Right now, the only school for which I'm auditioning that grants a BFA and does showcases trying to get actors working immediately is Tisch at which I'm only interested in the Atlantic and Adler studios.<br>
Kel</p>
<p>Kellster - </p>
<p>Thanks for correcting my statement, which was obviously too general. My info on the topic of acting MFA's comes primarily from a friend who just got his MFA from the Hilberry Rep and also auditioned at the University of Alabama/Alambama Shakespeare Festival and several other schools/companies which grant MFA's - not just his situation, though, but those of his classmates as well - as well as my friend, already mentioned, who heads a major collegiate acting program (which I can't name here but which has offers both BFA and MFA degrees). So it seems like that what both of us say is true - there ARE many schools which don't want students right out of college and are open about that. My friend from the Hilberry is currently on tour and kind of hard to get ahold of, but when I can, I will ask him to make me a list of the MFA programs which he and his classmates encoutered that wanted older students. However, I wanted to correct something you said:</p>
<p>"what CoachC said may be true in general for kids that go to state universities and whatnot"</p>
<p>I am talking about acting students who attend many types of universities, not just "state universities and whatnot" - for example, CMU BFA Acting, which rarely places kids into MFA programs right away, preparing them instead to work. </p>
<p>Thanks for the correction, Kellster! It's definintely important info to post here because there are some BFA MT's whose plan is to then move on and get an MFA in Acting, sometimes right away.</p>
<p>CoachC, on another thread you posted this statement: "So students, be AWARE of the REALITIES of each program - and part of that DOES include national and REGIONAL reputation. (Some schools don't have national reps but are really well-know and well-respected in certain areas of the country, which is helpful if you want to work in that area.) And the way to find out that rep is NOT to ask the school - the best schools usually don't brag, b/c they don't have to. Read CC - look at playbill.com and see which schools the performers attended (and do this ANY time you read a playbill) - talk to working performers - talk to those who have auditioned in the past, especially those attending top schools now, and find out WHY they auditioned where they did...Again, you will almost always hear a few "top" schools in EACH list."</p>
<p>You headed your list of ways of students discovering the "best schools" with "read CC." Hmm. I can't help but feel that this forum is starting to have a serious impact on shaping reputations among students and parents. This has a great impact on garnering auditioners for schools. The schools that get the most coverage on CC probably see a relative increase in the number of students auditioning for their programs. This is pretty chilling, given that the more students and parents talk about the schools they are interested in, the more potential competition they are generating for themselves. This type of reputation seems to have little connection with industry reputations, both NY and regional. You mentioned how new UM's MT program is, at 22 years. That was interesting because I think the University of Oklahoma's musical theatre program is doing a great job for a new, and much smaller, program at 10 or 11 years of age. They have a good list of working performers, some national tours, many regional, and only one so far on Broadway and now in the The Producers film. They have a good regional reputation at this point. But OU is rarely mentioned on CC. Does that mean they aren't doing a good job? Does that mean it's lesser than some other programs that are discussed more often or that have a CC "spokesperson," whether parent, student, or other? Every time everyone of us "speaks" on CC, we are giving the opinion of just one person. Even wonderful, sharing and giving professionals like CoachC, only have their own viewpoints, which are somewhat random, based on who they happen to meet in life, etc. For example, CoachC hasn't heard of Webster, but Norbert Leo Butz has heard of Webster . . . . I hope this doesn't come off as disrespectful to CoachC, who I highly respect, or anyone else who holds a different viewpoint. I just think that the power of this website is much greater than we sometimes realize, but it's not the power to alter who is cast in what show or what a casting agent thinks of a program, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, I am wondering what CoachC and the other professionals think of the importance of going to a program that garners agents for its students upon graduation.</p>
<p>COACH, i want you to know that many of us appreciate this info regarding school reps. you do have to find a good fit, but you have to have a starting place. and many of those looking for a good fit would not have a clue but for the info on here. so, this is valuable info, just as all the other discussions. if a student got into several schools, this rep info could be a deciding factor. i, for one, appreciate the info.</p>
<p>I will add my thoughts as to the MFA in Acting topic.</p>
<p>The reason, in my opinion, is that MFA students are getting older and older than in my day (prehistoric times) is because admission to the top programs has gotten so darned competitive. </p>
<p>The average age of MFA students is many years older than when I was a student at ACT. In those days, most of us were right out of college.</p>
<p>It is hard to compete for those coveted spots fresh from your BA or BFA degree when you are up against actors who have, post undergrad, worked professionally in regional theatre, summer stock and off broadway. They also have a savy and maturity that gives them an edge.</p>
<p>Times certainly have changed.</p>
<p>xxx,Mary Anna</p>
<p>mtmommy -</p>
<p>No offensive taken by your post - I definitely didn't know that Norbert Leo Butz went to Webster, even though I saw DRS and it's clearly listed in his bio (which I just looked up). :) I think the distinction to be made here is that, while Webster clearly graduates some top people (I don't know of others, since I don't know Webster, but I'm sure they exist), and students should look at that, they don't (yet) have a national rep. NYC MT casting people don't look at a resume and say "oh, a Webster grad" - but they DO do this for CCM, UM, NYU, and CMU grads. Again, my long post yesterday had 2 purposes:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>to caution anyone reading here to be wary of a school that equates themselves with one of the schools I mentioned as the top without a lot of "grads working in equivalent productions" proof</p></li>
<li><p>to put forth truthful national rep info</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Me not knowing Webster (or OU, as another example) doesn't overturn or even undermine the strength of the top school's national reps. I never said nor implied that other schools aren't great as well - but the schools with national reps are indisputable - I am talking about the REPS, not even the quality of the programs, for each of those nationally-reputed schools has its own strengths, and yes, weaknesses.</p>
<p>As for my listing CC first as a source of info - that was simply because I am posting ON CC - and there is GOOD info here, if you read it ALL and consider the sources with a "grain of salt." I LOVED that soulman trumpeted his non-objective LOVE for his school - and the proud parents who post here also obviously love their children's schools, as well, with GOOD REASON. I frankly don't think CC has much "power" to influence auditionee pools - most of my MT students have never heard of this board and don't have time to read here anyway. I post here b/c I'm a teacher geek at heart AND an MT geek, and I like to share info - but I also don't ever share ALL of my info, to be frank. I just chime in when I can help objectively (medical voice issues, when I can share my grad school education) or when an issue arises about which I feel particularly passionate as an educator (schools putting forth reps they haven't "earned" - and I DON'T mean Webster or OU - I am talking specifically about tiny schools in my geographic area which tell students blatant LIES about their programs' prowess, which I don't even think are DELIBERATE lies - I think they are a product of lack of a real sense of the business among the faculty)!!! </p>
<p>mtmommy, you also make a great point about "just one person's opinion." Yes, my opinion is just one person's, guided by the people I encounter - and obviously, I haven't gotten to hang out with NLB (although I do have 2 friends in that cast)! :) But again, I'm simply communicating the "industry BUZZ" - which isn't "just one person's opinion" (although it certainly started as that at some point). Is the buzz fair to less well-known schools? Nope. Do casting directors care if you attended XYZ University if you have an outstanding audition? Probably not - depending on whom you are competing against for a role. But will the name of a national rep school open doors for you? Sure will. This also ties into you question about schools which "garner" agents for their students upon graduation. As you probably no, NO school "gets" anyone an agent - they simply have the power to bring the best agents and casting directors together for their showcases, but the STUDENTS get themselves agents - some students DON'T get agents from top schools' showcases, in fact. My opinion on this is that it's HARD to get an agent and ANY advantage you can give to yourself is valuable. Agents and casting people look forward to seeing the new crop of talent from the national rep schools, so if you are among that new talent, you have an advantage for getting an agent. In the end, the work is yours, but having the opportunity to be seen by the big guns (Bernie Telsey, Dave Clemmons, Tara Rubin, Jay Binder, etc.) is invaluable.</p>
<p>Whew - hope ALL of this helps SOMEONE - can you tell I'm SO ready to start my grad school Thanksgiving break (TODAY - we start early!!!!) and focus on MT for awhile? :)</p>
<p>Not only did Norbert Leo Butz get his BFA at Webster, so did Jerry Mitchell who won the Tony this year for Best Choreography for La Cage aux Folles. He is also the choreographer for Dirty Rotten Soundrels, Hairspray, The Full Monty, and Will Rogers Folles just to name a few. My D informed me that they receive a list each week of grads working.</p>
<p>Not able to comment on "best," however when my s was considering NYU, I asked a Bway playwright re: it's rep in the industry. She offerred a comment re: NYU (the only program I asked about) from her favorite Bway director. He made a comment to her (when he was auditioning actors) that NYU actors were known for their "intelligent character analysis." Don't know if this helps... I suspect that subjective comments such as this one abound.</p>
<p><strong>shakes head, shrugs shoulders</strong></p>
<p>Cloud of thought appears over 5pants' head which reads:
"Why do I keep coming back to this board to read this stuff?" :(</p>
<p>I just wanted to voice here what I've voiced to CoachC privately. I think it's a benefit for him to have posted his honest and informed opinions here. He has made it clear that there is the possibility for kids to get a good education at schools other than the ones which are considered the 'top' ones in the industry. He hasn't disputed that, in the least. What he has done is to honestly post what is, in fact, the situation with many NYC theatre people who are responsible for casting. I don't think anyone needs to feel offended, or to jump on him with examples of individuals who have 'made it' from other programs. I think he has provided excellent information which should be taken into consideration, along with everything else, when researching options for our kids. </p>
<p>Yes, Norbert did attend Webster, but he did a straight drama BFA, not MT. ;)He then did a MFA at Alabama Shakespeare Festival. I know schools love to be proud of their grads, and well they should, but it needs to be kept in perspective, too. As CoachC says, it's important to consider rep over a long period of time with many grads, a sustained experience. Although both Norbert and Jerry are extremely talented men, they both got their education a long time ago. Norbert is 38 and Jerry, I believe, is even older. BFA programs were a very different animal back then. Jerry only actually attended Webster for two years in St. Louis, the school gave him credit for a year doing a show on Broadway. That kind of thing would not happen in today's world. Having said that, Webster is a great program which has a very good reputation in St. Louis and throughout the mid-West.</p>
<p>The sharing of information here on CC is invaluable to prospective students and their parents. The more information that can be garnered in this process, the better. While it's true that each and every kid has to find the school which is the right 'fit' for THEM, the truth is that there may be more than one which they're accepted to, and having the kind of information which CoachC has so kindly provided, may assist them, in an important way, in making their decisions.</p>
<p>I agree with Alwaysamom. (By the way, why do I think Coach C is a she, not a he?)</p>
<p>There is a real world out there folks and there are real people making decisions about who works and who doesn't and they only have so much time to see potential hires and make these decisions. They are going to rely on the experiences they have with the real candidates they've seen in the past. That may mean relying on a few specific agents from whom they have seen talented performers in the past or it may mean they give more time and attention at an open call to a performer that comes from a college program they believe in or it may mean that they cast their best friend's brother's niece because they CAN! We can spend as much time as we want arguing about the merits of the varying programs which are no doubt considerable. But the information Coach C has offered has real world implications for those students and parents having to make choices about where they want to apply and for those students talented enough and fortunate enough to have a choice of acceptances. Again, no one is saying that students who don't go to these so called "top" programs are not going to work or do not have a great chance to be highly successful, as are many more who go to no college program at all. But if you were a serious gambler on horse races, would you place a $100,000 bet on a horse if you didn't know the horse's lineage, know how well it had done in previous races, hadn't studied the betting sheets or computed the odds?</p>
<p>Now I'm sure there are those of you out there thinking "Of course they agree with Coach C - their children are already attending one of the schools identified by the Coach (see how I deftly avoid the gender question?) as having a strong national reputation and being well regarded by NYC casting folks. For those of you focusing on that, you are missing the point!!! The main benefit of CC, other than the obvious one of being able to connect with parents and students with similar interests, experiences, hopes, joys, fears, disappontments, triumphs, etc. is that this is one of the few places you can go to gather information about college MT programs, auditioning to get into those programs, MT employment opportunities for current students and, for those getting ready to graduate, considerable knowledge about the business of the business. But there is no guarantee that what you read here is always the absolute, be all and end all TRUTH!! As was always included in the introduction to the X Files, "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE," but it is still up to all of us as individuals to do the fact checking, to search out as many sources of FACTUAL information as we can, add a dollop of anecdotal information from people whose opinion we trust, stir it up and then see what you have. And while you might not always be able to depend on a school for honest informaton about their relative standing in the MT education universe, I'm often amazed by the number of times that people come here for answers to factual questions that could more efficiently and truthfully be answered by consulting the website of a school or getting on the phone and calling the school directly. If you only go by the info you read here, you have nobody to blame but yourself if that info contradicts something you could have learned directly from the school in question.</p>
<p>As Coach C also said, "don't shoot the messenger." If you have information that contradicts what ANYONE says, post it. We are all served by the diversity of opinion expressed here. We just have to be discerning and learn to distinguish between fact and opinion and then use both with wisdom and care.</p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I hate the idea of rankings - even if put in the context of "industry" criteria. The fact is the industry is very much a case of "what have you done for me lately" - and that is an ever changing landscaspe. I mention this because I was recently party to a conversation with some faculty from NYU and U of Arts - who mentioned they were surprized that some of the less traditional schools were on the lips of several major casting directors and agents in NYC as "top schools" - these included Otterbein, Shenandoah, Elon, and others. I recently told a parent that I wouldn't feel comfortable making anything less than a top twenty - and then I am sure I would omit some great programs. I admit there is a very amorphous top tier of six or so schools that would be based on reputation. But here is the thing - I have heard some "horror stories" about various "big" programs - some schools are still striving every year to improve their product - and others are very (perhaps too) confident that they no longer have to push themselves. I am of the mind of finding "the fit" for each student. The arts are now, as they always have been, a case of the student finding the "master teacher" that is particularily inspiring to that individual student. I submit that some of the "big" schools are exactly that - big - and sometimes a talented student has a difficult time finding and making that conection, that "fit". Now, do not get me wrong - I am not anti-big schools. I think of CCM as a big school - and it is decidedly on my personal "top" school list (by the by - I have no particular connection to CCM). I would also submit that no one on these boards, even the teaching professionals, can speak with authority on the many schools that offer training in MT - I will use myself as an example - I was relatively unaware of Webster before I started reading these pages. Another example of not being able to take in the entire spectrum is - I am very surprized at how little play San Diego State gets (and , again, I have no particular connection there either). Since many in this forum seem to be seeking an undergrad degree, at this point, I would add -BEWARE THE GRADUATE PROGRAM - especially as it impacts on casting. Something to look at with some bigger programs is how much of their top resources are dedicated to the grad program (thereby, diminishing that which available to the undergrad program). Again, I am not anti-big schools - there would be at least ten "big" schools on my personal top twenty.</p>
<p>I have said this time and again - visit the schools you are interested in, when you have a short list - go see their productions, and talk with them - their faculty, their students.....find the "fit" that works for you.</p>
<p>theatermom, you may very well be right! I honestly don't know why I assumed that CoachC was a <em>he</em>. :) I guess that's why they say that one should never assume! Perhaps the good Coach will set us straight.</p>