I worked for one Ivy League university and a large publicly supported research university that people here frequently hail as being in the top two or three. I agree entirely that schools are very different. At both universities I worked at, we worked hard to compensate for this. Indeed, we had 25+ admissions officers, assigned by region, whose responsibility it was to make precisely this sort of adjustment. My point was that if your child is at a very good school, the fact that h/she takes many APs won’t compensate for a 3.3 GPA and that the student who took a “mix” of classes and got a 3.8 will look better.
@ucbalumnus We didn’t know if it was based on an exaggerated weighting system which is precisely why our policy was to “de-weight” all grades. We had our own conversion factor for grades which I feel was standard to most colleges and universities. That said, our regional admissions counselors did have a good idea about the standards at many if not most schools, especially those presenting many students over the years.
@doschicos We actually ignored the GPAs shown on transcripts. Our admissions clerks would make these calculations themselves (a very simple step if the school uses Naviance). In the case of non-standard transcripts, the written evaluations etc. appeared on our screens.
We don’t convert or de-weight. We do see the transcript. Ivy. A grades are A’s and B’s are B’s, etc. We see rigor and choices. Gpa shows in one spot on the kid’s CA and on the School Report. It helps give an idea of rank, in some cases. Not in others.
Much of what shows on the screen is an auto download.
@TTdd16 “Interesting that the article directly contradicts those here that say “recommended” subject tests actually mean “required,” unless you’re low income and can’t afford them.”
I don’t read it that way. The standard cc: advice is that you should consider them required unless there is a clear reason not to care, such as you are going to be their star quarterback, etc. That is because with single digit admit rates at top schools, you need to present yourself as the strongest candidate possible. Not taking subject tests is a missed opportunity.
@captusica “…Ivies barely give any credit for a limited number of AP scores of 5”
That is not entirely accurate. D got credit for 7 classes at Penn through 5’s on APs, and testing out of others. She could have chosen to be done in three years.
@ncswimmom “I work for a large university and see more “weeding out” using GPA for various programs and scholarship opportunities than I would like to see.”
For the reasons you mention in your post, one would think that schools would use a blend of gpa and test scores to assess the student. That should highlight that a 4.0 gpa with a 24 ACT is not the same as a 3.6 gpa with 32 ACT. An 8 point gap in ACT score is too much of a difference, and tells me that the rigor of the two schools was significantly different.
“Colleges don’t care as long as they know the coursework is rigorous. Even 5 years ago, the college counselors at the high school were telling parents not to worry about APs (as some had their kids self-study and take the tests anyway). You don’t need to play that game and I hope public schools will move away from the AP race. It’s just a money making enterprise for college board and creates unnecessary stress for students, IMO.”
I think AP’s are very helpful, when used properly.
There are two problems with college today that stand above all others: 1) it is very expensive, and 2) the graduation rates are awful. I read in WSJ that only 53% of students who started a four-year college degree program, have graduated six years later. That’s right, 53% in 6 years. That is just terrible. (I found it! https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-graduation-rate-shrinks-study-finds-1447774973)
So after all that time, 47% of new college students have 6 years of college costs and still do not have a degree. That is truly the worst possible outcome.
A student having credit for even two or three courses when they begin college can have a real impact on their ability to complete their degree, to do it in less time, and to do it with a lower cost. It gives them a low-cost head start, and it gives them confidence. I think that can only be a good thing. We certainly can’t end AP credit and see that 53% rate fall even further.
I do agree that any sort of race to cram in more AP classes is counter productive. What does matter is to take a reasonable number, to focus on core subjects, and to do well. Quality trumps quantity. Learn something well.
The students successfully taking AP courses and doing well enough on AP exams to get college credit for them are not, by a huge margin, the students driving down the graduation rates in the wSJ article. They just aren’t. Don’t confuse the apples with the oranges.
Plus, isn’t that % about a range of colleges, different types of students?
I can only read the beginning of the article because it is behind a paywall but that figure quoted - 53% - is from 2 and 4 year colleges not just 4 year.
Here, @doschicos http://studentcaring.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/College-Graduation-Rate-Shrinks-Study-Finds-WSJ.pdf
It is likely that many of those who have started college but have not graduated 6 years later stopped attending college much earlier (e.g. after 1-2 years), or are still attending on a part-time basis (often at a low cost commuter college), rather than having attended an expensive college for 6 years.
Yes, just as likely the number on the part time plan has increased, one way or another. Could be folks outside the usual 18-22 age range or those who have to work to pay costs. (This study seems to include the lower cost state schools, where it’s possible.) I’d have liked to see the flip side: are there more students taking longer, but still graduating, eventually?
@doschicos “I can only read the beginning of the article because it is behind a paywall but that figure quoted - 53% - is from 2 and 4 year colleges not just 4 year.”
Almost half of students nationally have not graduated in 6 years, and even if you only count 4 year institutions, you only get to 59% according to this: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_326.10.asp (no pay wall).
Again, I would not be opposed to high schools caping the number of AP classes a student can take, but I think that a reasonable number, done properly, is very helpful to students and prepares them for college. If someone has a plan that will ends AP exams and improve college readiness and college completion rates, I am completely open. However, I have heard no one claim that.
@UCBalumnus “It is likely that many of those who have started college but have not graduated 6 years later stopped attending college much earlier (e.g. after 1-2 years), or are still attending on a part-time basis (often at a low cost commuter college), rather than having attended an expensive college for 6 years.”
Clearly there are some. Still, I don’t think that changes the point that earning AP credit trims the cost of college and improves graduation rates. That has to be a good thing. I do agree though that it would be beneficial for high schools to do a better job of managing how many AP’s students take.
@lookingforward “I’d have liked to see the flip side: are there more students taking longer, but still graduating, eventually?”
I would be interested too, but remember, this is already the 6 year rate, not the 4 year rate. I think you would pick up a hand full of students at 7 and 8 years, but after that few people ever finish.
I think it highlights that people comparing colleges often focus heavily on cost, when they should pay more attention to graduation rates than they do. You aren’t saving that money if your student takes longer to graduate or never graduates.
However, college graduation rates are heavily correlated to incoming student characteristics – more selective colleges have higher graduation rates. So most of the student’s likelihood to graduate (and on time) can be predicted based on the student’s prior academic record. Some other student characteristics can also factor into that, such as how decided s/he is on his/her major (late change of major can delay graduation).
At the margins, there are college treatment effects that can move the needle from the graduation rates expected based on student characteristics. Such things include advising quality and course availability (probably the most overstated problem by students who do not want to take the 8am section of a key prerequisite course). College factors that interact with student characteristics include whether the student’s possible majors have additional competitive admission gates to pass (students who do not pass these gates may be delayed due to switching to another major that they did not previously prepare for) and financial concerns (the college’s price and financial aid generosity versus the parent/student financial resources). Indeed, if everything else is equal, a higher cost college will mean a higher risk of dropping out due to running out of money.
Where does EC count in the list of grades, test scores, AP classes?
My child has a 4.0 ACT 35 Almost all AP or college credit classes at a competitive private school
Does a respectable amount of volunteer hours,160 hours, I think
Worked over the summer, 40 hours a week
Volunteered at camp for special needs children and am continuing to work with them this school year
NHS, tutor
Clubs, Editor of Newspaper
Senior leader for their mentor groups(under classmen)
Had to quit contact sports due to concussions
@ucbalumnus “So most of the student’s likelihood to graduate (and on time) can be predicted based on the student’s prior academic record.”
In the end, as a parent, there are no odds. Either the individual student graduates or they don’t. If there were a way to tell who will and won’t graduate with just grades and test scores, we could save almost 1/2 of the countries college students a lot of wasted effort. However, there are many factors that impact that and I think that many of those impacts depend on the school.
I don’t know what percentage is determined by high school grades and test scores, and I don’t think anyone does, but grade and test scores are very far from determinative. Otherwise, everyone would just go to the cheapest school. That doesn’t mean that the cheapest school is not the right choice. It may well be. It just means you have to know the school and the kid to sort it out.
Many other factors have a big impact including:
- The students choice of major
- Degree of student engagement
- The supportiveness of the family
- Family attitudes about education
- The student’s fit at the school
- Access to tutoring support
- Course availability
- The quality of the students around you
- Greek Life, for all of it’s negatives, has a positive correlation to graduation rates
- Quality of and access to professors
- Quality of and access to TA’s
- Do they like the school?
My D13 graduated from a public HS where half of the grads do not go to college. She took as many AP and Honors classes as possible, to jack up her weighted GPA and class rank, both are (with the SAT) the main factors in admission to NC public universities. The AP/Honors classes were also (probably not incidentally) stacked with the wealthier kids at her high school. And she was able to place out of a semester at her university (though she is still somehow taking 4.5 years to graduate). She also reports HS AP classes are nowhere close to the same as true university classes. May be be a universal observation, just hers.
Still, AP and Honors may be necessary at public schools with wide ranges of student achievement. Especially for grads seeking to go to selective private colleges, who want to know the matriculates can actually do college-level work.
There are two conversations that seem to be intertwined here: the value of AP classes for most students that are applying to most colleges, and how AP courses are part of the intense pressure at the top of some high school classes and at the admissions office of most elite colleges.
These courses are very important to kids from average (or worse) high schools who want to measure themselves against the larger world. They can hack off course requirements that take time and money that might be in short supply. I think AP courses are doing what they’re intended to do for this group, both in helping the schools offer better material and getting the students a rolling start towards college.
But at the elite high schools and at the very top of most above-average high schools it’s really hard to get near the top of the class ranks without taking as many of these as possible. You can’t get the max grade points from the lesser courses even with perfect performance. And because the B in AP Calc is not always viewed the same as the A in Just Calc by a college, it raises the cost even higher. Finally, while colleges may say they don’t want the max possible, they all want to see some effort to take the hardest courses available at least some of the time.
I guess what I’d propose is to limit AP courses to two per year and make kids choose the ones that suit their interests rather than just whatever they can fit into their schedule.
I agree about the two conversations being intertwined, but I don’t see the problem as being as bad as this. In part, because each of our kids have taken about 7 APs total by the end, and they seem to need about this many to be challenged (and they aren’t off the charts students) This is because even in our “good” school few non-AP classes are very rigorous.
The second part is because our school doesn’t weight, the only reasons are to take APs is to demonstrate rigor for colleges and to challenge yourself a little academically. But since so many schools don’t rank any more, and so many universities redo grades with their own weighting, how many students face actual pressure to pile on 12 APs? I don’t doubt there are some, but the seem completely outweighed by the advantages in offering more challenging courses to interested kids across a wide range of schools.