Florida Supreme Court Blocks School Vouchers

Parent Cafe
61

<br>


<br>

<p>Perhaps so, but you haven't given any examples. There is freedom of religious practice in Beligum, but no separation of church and state as it is understood in the U.S. Six offically state-recognized religions receive government funding. Ministers in these six religions may be paid by the state. Maintenance of church buildings, etc. is likewise subsidized. Unless you want to abolish the First Amendment, or at the very least completely rewrite 215 years of its interpretation, the foundations of the Belgian system are incompatible with ours.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24346.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24346.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<br>


<br>

<p>You view economic decay of inner cities as independent of white flight? I offer Detroit and Cleveland as Exhibits A and B. The two go hand in hand.</p>

62

<p>Hanna:</p>

<p>I am -in no way- able to match your wisdom of constitutional law. All I know is that vouchers have been declared illegal in a number of states and legal in at least one. This would lead me to assume -without legal foundation- that what dooms the vouchers are the details of each individual State Constitution. </p>

<p>However, I did not discuss the legal angle and constitutionality of the voucher system, but discussed that a hybrid system does work, and seemingly very well. Citizens in Belgium have a choice of schools offering a menu of religious or secular education. In this case, the debate about separation of Church and State is a mere excuse. The organizations that virulently oppose vouchers would have a similar attitude if private schools were forced to be non-denominational to accept voucher students. There are many private schools that have dropped a religious affiliation a long time. The issue is simply about the preservation of a cynical monopoly that fosters mediocrity over performance. </p>

<p>As far as flight by whites, it seems that you truncated my post or overlooked my first line, "That is one contributing factor."</p>

63

<p>Teachers are not the problems, nor are their unions. Even if you are in a private school without a union, part of your benefits and salary resulted from the fact that union teachers have fought and struggled to improve the working and learning conditions at schools. In some communities the Teachers Union is the only voice of reason against the absurd policies created by elected officials (from the local school board all the way up to the White House). God Bless Teachers Unions.</p>

<p>God Bless every union member and officer. Without them there would have been no benefits, no five day work week, no relief from the greed of the wealthy and powerful. and I'll say it again, God Bless Unions.</p>

64

<p>Unions are the ultimate economic dinosaurs, and the only place they maintain any viability is the public sector, where they are able to abuse political power in order to feather their own nests. You think Abramoff is scandalous? Look into the activities of your local teacher's union. Or big city police union, for that matter. Or the New York Transportation Worker's Union. The rest of our economy has moved on from the 19th century. But not the government employees unions, which keep us frozen in the past.</p>

65

<p>driver:</p>

<p>Can I interpret your response as implying that you do not think teachers' unions are helpful? Next time try to be more explicit with your opinions!</p>

<p>(Amen)</p>

<p>Mr. B: </p>

<p>I guess in this case the problem is the "greed of the wealthy and powerful" parents who would like to take their children out of failing schools just to improve the educational future of their children. How can such moral slime ever look themselves in the mirror?</p>

66

<p>A very interesting article I just came across....deals with France, Belgium, and unions! How a-propos! BTW, I would agree with Hanna that the Belgian example, which is a religio-political vestige of the 17th century, is not a model any sane person would want to follow. The Belgian political situation makes our red state/blue state divide look like a picnic. I have Belgian cousins too.
<a href="http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/brussels010606.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/brussels010606.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>pafather, I'm trying to stay true to one of my New Years resolutions, but next time I'll try to be more clear as to what I really think. ;)</p>

67

<p>I appreciate that people banding together have gotten results that an individual was not able to accomplish- but because unions are advantagous in some circumstances doesn't mean they are advantageous in all and for all.</p>

<p>There are teachers unions, and principals unions, but I haven't seen any unions advocating for students and families- when monies intended by voters to lower class size, can also be used to pay for "teacher training", that doesn't result in any discernible difference that I can see- just one instance where what benefits the adult doesn't benefit the child.</p>

<p>Incidentally in my years trying to get legal accomodations for my daughter- I was in the school building everyday- sometimes all day for a period of 6 years- I may not have the same knowledge of what happens in school that a teacher does, but more than many parents. Many things horrified me, and this is supposedly an "enlightened" school system.
I would vote for vouchers for private schools in a minute.</p>

68

<p>"I guess in this case the problem is the "greed of the wealthy and powerful" parents who would like to take their children out of failing schools just to improve the educational future of their children. How can such moral slime ever look themselves in the mirror?"</p>

<p>PAfather, I am not sure why some view this as a battle that could benefit the "wealthy and powerful." From everything I have read on this subject, the powerful and the wealthy OPPOSE vouchers. Most families that have made the choice to stay out of public schools do NOT need voucher to make their choice easier. They have the means to fund their decisions. It is also a given that families that pay for private schoosl are NOT really keen to see their schools transformed into a heaven for public school "renegades" and see their school have to deal with a new layer of bureaucratic burden. </p>

<p>On the other hand, the vouchers would benefit families that do NOT have that choice. </p>

<p>Further "parents who would like to take their children out of failing schools just to improve the educational future of their children" have done just THAT. The socially mobile have moved to better and newer districts to leave behind the world of failing and dangerous schools. There is a reason why private schools are rarely located in the new suburbans Shangri-La: there is no need for them as the public schools are better funded and have a LOT more. I am not sure if anyone who has taken his family from an urban area to a suburban area has ever been asked to wipe the slime from his face!</p>

69

<p>"God Bless every union member and officer. Without them there would have been no benefits, no five day work week, no relief from the greed of the wealthy and powerful. and I'll say it again, God Bless Unions."</p>

<p>No five day work week ... I wish your unions would stand for a REAL five day work week.</p>

70

<p>The Florida case was not about greedy unions or selfish parents, it was about a poorly written law that was passed and signed with political reasoning superseding legal reasoning.</p>

<p>Lowering class size is certainly on the wish list of every teacher union I have worked with. Teachers do not get to decide on moving funds from that noble purpose to any other. If I had that authority, the only program to which I would move smaller class size money into would be into getting a full time school nurse..ours only comes on Fridays.</p>

<p>I have also had the experience of teaching in a non-union public school setting...no breaks, no sick days, no benefits at all..pay was less, and there was no bonus for excellence in teaching there either. God Bless Unions, they represent a brighter future than returning to the wonder years of serfs and manors that some here would applaud. Those of you who feel you could do a better job, come on down and try...that's how I got here.</p>

<p>EK, I share your frustration, as a teacher who has identified numerous problems with students ranging from hearing and visual impairment to abuse..I know how hard it is to get the education bureaucracy to move. Depending on the Principal and parents, I have had mix success getting special needs students into the best class situations. I applaud you for taking an active roll, I have worked with parents who didn't want to get involved. </p>

<p>Once again, the Florida case was decided on its legality, if Jeb Bush had researched it better, I would think a better approach could have been designed.</p>

71

<p>"BTW, I would agree with Hanna that the Belgian example, which is a religio-political vestige of the 17th century, is not a model any sane person would want to follow."</p>

<p>What is so particularly insane about the Belgian system of education? Its cost? Its performance? Belgium is a country that is dealing with massive problems, but it seems that education is not one of the country's failures.</p>

<p>All I know is that my cousins were -and will be- able to receive a world-class education at a bargain price. I also know that they are laughing at the incredible obsession and frustration that takes place in the US during the transition from high school to college. Their process is a lot simpler. </p>

<p>PS I also know that I do not really want to compare what we learned in our respective high schools.</p>

72

<p>"God Bless Unions, they represent a brighter future than returning to the wonder years of serfs and manors that some here would applaud. "</p>

<p>LOL - Unions are built on a feudal system. Members pledge allegiance to their corrupt masters in exchange of promises of the spoils of war you call benefits. </p>

<p>Allow me to also add a comment here. This is not an issue about the merits of teachers. Great teachers who have devoted their life to education outnumber the bad apples by a large margin. I just happen to believe that great teachers could do even better in a system that would not be so protective of the mediocre and the crooks. </p>

<p>As far unions, while they have played a role in the past, their contemporary version is hardly that of a progressive movement. While I have a pretty good idea why teachers think they need an union, I do not think that many parents or students share their view. And the last time I checked, parents and students should be the beneficiaries of our education system and not the organization that are responsible for its failure.</p>

73

<p>Lowering class size is certainly on the wish list of every teacher union I have worked with. Teachers do not get to decide on moving funds from that noble purpose to any other.</p>

<p>we actually have site based management
principals write the budgets with the help of their budget commitee ( which I was on- I wasn't an employee but I was allowed a vote) I admit that lack of training of principals in writing budgets was a huge part of problem</p>

<p>I-728 allows principals the flexibilty to decide what to spend the money on- teachers tell principals what they want it spent on. Some schools particulary elementaries want smaller class sizes, some schools hope that additional hours spent on teacher training will be more beneficial-
personally I would like to see more hours in the classroom- even at my daughters school which has very dedicated teachers- every week at least one class is taught by a sub- sometimes more. For her 5th gd year she had rotating subs all year.
The district has had waivers( since 1997) from teh state for fewer in class days to allow more time for teacher training and collaboration. on average- for 10 months ( june - sept) students are in class 17.2 full days
I would like to see more time in classroom, with teachers, not subs
I also haven't seen any studies that show that more teacher training is benefiting students as much as time with their teacher would.</p>

74

<p>xiggi,
My comment really had nothing to do with education in Belgium per se, and more to do with the bizarre government, which seems to me to be a frozen-in-time post 30 Years War settlement.</p>

75

<p>Driver, thanks for the clarification.</p>

<p>The country, with its language, ethnic division, and the rapid changes in the wealth of the two main regions, must be one of the most difficult to govern. The last two governments were coalitions of six and four parties. In spite of this, the country was able to balance its budget for the first time in ... who knows how long. </p>

<p>My knowledge of the country is, alas, only superficial and may be a sbit suspect because of familial brain-washing. I probably look too much at the bright side and focus on the chocolates and beer. :)</p>

76

<p>
[quote]
What is the opposite of draining "public" funds away from public schools? Simple: it is the current system that drains private funds from private families which decide to send their children to private schools but still HAVE to pay for others.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you don't drive you still have to pay for the roads. If only the people who sent their kids to public school paid for the public schools, then they wouldn't be public because they wouldn't be able to function... the public schools work like any other public good.</p>

77

<p>
[quote]
LOL - Unions are built on a feudal system. Members pledge allegiance to their corrupt masters in exchange of promises of the spoils of war you call benefits.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A baseless slur like that could be thrown at pretty much any voluntary group. Yes, some unions have been corrupt. No, that doesn't mean that a group of honest, hard-working people trying to get a decent standard of living is bad.</p>

<p>Look at any introductory microeconomics textbook. In a monopsonic labor market (i.e., there is only one employer), because the monopsonist must pay all workers roughtly the same salary it will hire fewer people at lower wages than simple suppy and demand would suggest. If the workers secure the power to negotiate - leading to what is called a bilateral monopoly, with a single buyer and a single seller of labor - than wages and employment levels can reach a fairer level, reducing ineffeciency in the system.</p>

<p>What the pro-voucher people are missing is that the Florida Supreme Court struck the voucher plan down not because the court didn't like the plan but because they believed it violated the Florida state constitution, an interpretation of it that seems entirely reasonable to me. It doesn't matter if you pass a law to give out free candy to doe-eyed orphans - if it's unconstitutional the law cannot stand. If the pro-voucher people are so adamant they should try to change the constitution.</p>

78

<p>According to Mini's previous post,</p>

<p>"In its ruling, the Florida court cited an article in the State Constitution that says, "Adequate provision shall be made by law for a uniform, efficient, safe, secure and high quality system of free public schools."</p>

<p>If children were in schools that were FAILING, then it seems to me that the state had already not met it provision of "UNIFORM ... high quality system of free public schools" (unless all public schools in Florida are uniformly failing). How best to remedy this? (1) do nothing, so that all of the kids in the failing school had to remain there; or (2) allow some of them to opt out of the failing school to get a better education. </p>

<p>Even if you removed students who were predominantly above average at the failing school, this might decrease the AVERAGE performance of the school (because some of the better students would not be included in the average)but would it decrease the individual performance levels of the remaining students? I haven't seen any evidence that removing the students will decrease the performance of the remaining students. It is also possible that the performance of the students who left for other schools would have increased enough to have a net positive effect relative to any decrease in performance of the remaining students. If that is the case, then I would say the policy that led to a net increase in the performance of the failing school students would bring the school closer to compliance with STATE-WIDE uniform quality. I am obviously not a legal scholar, nor do I have all of the information available to review. </p>

<p>I would agree that if the Florida state constitution does not allow students in failing schools to choose other schools then it should be changed.</p>

79

<p>"A baseless slur like that could be thrown at pretty much any voluntary group. No, that doesn't mean that a group of honest, hard-working people trying to get a decent standard of living is bad."</p>

<p>Baseless slur? Who do you think you are kidding here? What part of my quote was a slur ... or baseless. </p>

<p>Yes, some unions have been corrupt? "some" must be the understatement of 2006. Let's stick to the teachers unions. It makes no sense to bring honest unions such as the Teamsters in this dabate. Please DO note the sarcasm. </p>

<p>No, that doesn't mean that a group of honest, hard-working people trying to get a decent standard of living is bad.?</p>

<p>Is the standard of living in discussion here. It's all about entitlements and self-preservation. </p>

<p>PS Feel free to name an union that remotely fits the rather pedestrian standards of honest workers striving to obtain decent wages. I'd be glad to search their past history and evaluate the honesty of their leadership, as well as analyze their agenda. Do not bother about the NEA as it is too darn easy!</p>

80

<p>If this does not make you vomit ,,,</p>

<p>
[quote]
On the heels of a scandal involving the misappropriation of more than $5 million by officials of the Washington, DC Teachers Union (WTU), another scandal has been uncovered involving the fraudulent conversion of almost $3.5 million in union funds for the personal use of former United Teachers of Dade (UTD) president Pat Tornillo.</p>

<p>In late August, Tornillo resigned his long-time position with UTD and pled guilty to stealing union funds, promising to pay back $640,000 while facing tax charges and penalties of about $400,000, and up to 30 months in prison. A forensic audit conducted by the American Federation of Teachers (AFT) detailed how $3,356,744 of UTD funds was “either misappropriated, diverted, and/or used for the personal benefit of Mr. Pat L. Tornillo, Jr., Mr. Murray Sisselman, Elizabeth Du Fresne and other individuals.”</p>

<p>While not reading “like the manifest of a pirate ship”--which is how one reporter described a listing of the expensive clothing, silver, artwork, and electronics items purchased by WTU officials--the forensic audit suggests Tornillo and his colleagues used teacher union dues to lead the kind of carefree, luxurious lifestyle the UTD teachers who furnished those dues can only dream about:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>travel, often involving cruises, to Russia, China, the Orient, New Zealand, Puerto Rico, St. Kitts, St. Barts, and Paris;</p></li>
<li><p>use of paid UTD staff to carry out household tasks and duties at the Tornillo residence, and for a personal assistant to Tornillo’s wife;</p></li>
<li><p>personal expenditures of $677,793 charged to UTD credit cards and not reimbursed, including $71,430 to Seabourn Cruise Lines to Southeast Asia, and $20,056 to the Mandarin Oriental Hotel in Miami;</p></li>
<li><p>payment of all Tornillo’s household utilities, insurance, and services, including gas, water, electricity, cable television, telephone, gardener, appliance maintenance plan, pool maintenance, and exterminator.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>As well as seeking restitution of the misappropriated funds, the AFT has instituted a number of reforms aimed at restructuring UTD in a way that would allow it to repay all outstanding debt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Antonucci also reports that the Lamoille Union High School District in Vermont placed teacher Wayne Nadeau on paid leave in September, pending a final school board decision on his employment.</p>

<p>At the National Education Association’s (NEA) national convention in July, Nadeau was elected to a six-year term on the teacher union’s Executive Committee, securing votes from more than 4,700 delegates, who apparently were unaware Nadeau’s teaching license had been suspended for 20 working days earlier this year for having sex with a teacher’s aide in his classroom.</p>

<p>When Nadeau’s admitted involvement in the incident was revealed in Vermont newspapers shortly after the convention, the teacher union initially supported him. For example, NEA spokesperson Kathleen Lyons pointed out Nadeau had been disciplined and that “Having an affair is not a disqualification.” But, under pressure, Nadeau resigned from the NEA Executive Committee in late July.

[/quote]
</p>