<p>The IAM is attempting to stop outsourcing and sending jobs overseas but the overall national leadership has been described as inefficent and even corrupt (I have no idea if recentlyhowever-) but how many executives whose workers are represented by those unions have leadership that is above reproach?
Certainly the NEA is more efficent at increasing teacher pensions- here teachers retire at 80% of their working wages, here IAM retire at $70 for each year of service- so a hardworking machinist who was employed for 30 years might expect $25,000 in pension- however since most have been laid off for a period of time, it will be difficult to find those who have 30 years with same company.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Certainly the NEA is more efficent at increasing teacher pensions- here teachers retire at 80% of their working wages
[/quote]
It would be so much more impressive if the NEA were as concerned that 80% of American students had a first-rate education.</p>
<p>Majority of students who are failing in school system do not want to study as they fail to see the importance of education. The fault lies not wit the teachers but with families and students (most important) who do not care as they probably do not see why education is important. Since the money is not an infinite resource, there has to be limit. </p>
<p>"Many Americans have grown accustom to blame others for their problems and do not want to take responsibility. Majority of urban school districts parents fail to participate in PTA meetings even the one who are on welfare. They do not emphasize at home that education is important. Thus, nothing major will change. There may be bad teachers and teachers union may have a lot of influence but fault lies with families who do no put emphasis on education. Why blame others. How many families take time to read the books to children when they are young? How many families go to programs which are educational in nature. Politicians assume that somehow throwing money will solve all problems. It will not till families take ownership in educational achievements. This is the reason why many urban families are now moving into home schooling. Each family unit is responsible to give time to their kid. Otherwise, do not blame others for your misfortune. System is not broken; we have forgotten that a single family is the part of solution. It is individual family responsibility to educate the kids and give time in doing so and not their neighbors responsibility to raise the kids.</p>
<p>Majority of students who are failing in school system do not want to study as they fail to see the importance of education. The fault lies not wit the teachers but with families and students (most important) who do not care as they probably do not see why education is important. Since the money is not an infinite resource, there has to be lim</p>
<p>I call bull@#$%
I was in the school nearly everyday all day for 5 years trying to get my daughter an appropriate education ( I was either in her classroom or in other classroom supporting teachers and staff as a volunteer)
Despite this involvement- trying to get appropriate help from her teachers and later the principal and higher ups in the district- I eventually had to hire tutors and switch schools- but much damage was done. Give a student a crappy teacher for one year and possibly support from home can negate the damage, give them a crappy teacher for two or three years in a row? Then the damage is much more difficult to overcome.
My daughter worked damm hard- but she had learning differences and was eligible for extra help. However, even though the school recieved extra money to give her that help, it was not appropriate, it wasn't even in the area that she needed help in. Additionally, even though the federal law requires that her IEP be evaluated during the year to insure it is helping, she was not evaluated till the very last week of school, despite my pleading to teachers and the principal.
Even though she did not pass the state required testing that will determine whether or not she recieves a diploma, in 4th or 7th gd, no measures have been put into place to remedy this.
IF this is the kind of response that I received, as the chair of the PTA, as someone who met as the chair with the principal, who regulary speaks at and attends school district board meetings, who serves on special commitees and who has quit my paying job so I can be in the school regulary,what kind of response is someone going to get who is intimidated by the jargon of education speak, and who maybe doesn't even speak english?
no wonder we have a disproportionality gap.</p>
<p>PNy and EK:
I don't think you're actually in disagreement with each other. I think PNY was referring to the type of disfunctional families I mentioned in an earlier post, and EK was referring to the frustrations that many involved parents feel even within supposedly excellent school districts, where dealing with the government school bureaucracy is about as fruitful as calling the DMV. There's plenty of room for dissatisfaction with the status quo, in either setting.</p>
<p>This post's purpose is to provide a few links to research directly related to the voucher system in Florida.</p>
<p>Page 14 of the joint report of Marquette University and Black Alliance for Educational Options is particularly relevant:</p>
<p>
[quote]
According to the former chairwoman of the Escambia County (Pensacola) School Board:
Before the passage of Gov. Bushs A+ Education plan
many people had never
heard of Spencer Bibbs or A.A. Dixon elementary schools
To hear many
people tell it, the A+ plan was going to leave our public schools in crumbling
ruins. Some teachers and administrators called the program dangerous and
destructive, worrying that allowing students to leave failing schools would
condemn those schools to continued failure. But they were wrong.
[T]he Escambia County School District responded to the threat of
competition. Extended reading, math and writing time blocks were instituted at
Bibbs and Dixon. Students were offered after-school and Saturday tutoring. A
major effort was launched to reduce student absenteeism. And, the community
became involved through mentoring and volunteer programs to assist teachers
in working with children to increase their performance.
With the recent return of this years [state test] scores and new school grades,
Escambia County schools have shown nothing but improvement across the
board. Last year, nine of our countys schools were given a failing grade by the
state. We should be particularly proud that all of them have improved their
scores this year
The opportunity scholarship program uses the most persuasive
tool we have as an incentive to get schools to perform money.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>emeraldk--so much of your experience with your public school resonates with me. It is harder than it needs to be to get what your kids should be getting in some public schools, even kids who have no special challenges. I am again facing the decision in a year with my middle schooler (has gone to public schools for elementary and middle school) --where to go for high school? She could probably get an okay education at the public high school, but it is run so poorly that it would require so much energy from me to keep on top of things, to go in and try to fix the inevitable problems that come up there, that I just don't want her to go there. And this is with a high achieving student who doesn't require anything extraordinary. It is even harder for kids who need a little more. My oldest went to this school, and it was just so unresponsive to my concerns, my kids needs, just so unbelievably frustrating for me as a parent, and I hear things have not gotten better. So, probably she won't go there, though I'm not 100% sure yet. It makes me feel bad too, because I believe in the idea of public schools, but you know, I can't fix the problems there. And this school is not the worst in the area by any means. I can't imagine what some kids have to go through to get a high school education. Well, actually I can, but it ain't pretty . . .</p>
<p>granted parent involvement is to be encouraged- but districts and schools may be seen as discouraging that. If they really feel that parent involvement is key- lets see more programs, especially in inner city schools like my Ds, that encourage and support parent involvement.
Not just the one day a year- AA parent/student day, to be held during "black history month", but more parent nights, where teachers are available and questions can be asked about how to help with classwork</p>
<p>My 10th gd daughter is currently taking a marine science class where a navigation project requires a level of math that is beyond her- I had no idea that it was such a problem until it was 2 days overdue. Then I looked at it and couldn't make head or tails of the math, even my daughter who a senior in biology at Reed and who has taken Reed calculus, had trouble with the type of problem.</p>
<p>Yes students need to communicate when they need help- but realistically, many of them wont' or can't, especially in high school.
Parents need to know what assignments are due, and where to get their student help if they need it- schools can facilitate this.</p>
<p>Isn't this why we spend the big bucks on technology and teacher training everyyear? So that teachers can learn how to use the latest program? It would be helpful if that would be utilized.
Even low income parents can access email at libraries for free- teachers can use email during the day- or even just post assignments once a week or even once a month- communication makes the difference.</p>
<p>In the past three years her schools have had three different programs to put information on the web. One was paid for by the school, the next and the one with the most information Edline, was paid for by the PTA, and the current one is being paid for by the district.
But it often isn't updated and mostly just used for attendance- I don't need the attendance, unlike some parents I know that my child is in class everyday- but I would love to see more about what she expected to do in class. Some teachers are very good about communicating- ironically those are not the classes that she needs help with- others are getting better- but it takes actually going to the building- which is hard for many parents to do, by the time their students are in high school, to get responses from the recalirant teachers.</p>
<p>To realize that this is the best high school( public) IMO in the city, is pretty depressing.
Even though I like her school, and think her principal and many of the teachers are great or at least trying to be so, if I knew back when I took her out of private school in third grade, that it was going to be such a struggle- i would never have done it.</p>
<p>Just as in many cases we don't need new laws, we just need the ones that are on the books to be enforced, we don't need new technology, we just need what is there to be used :) please?</p>
<p>mstee and emeraldkity4,</p>
<p>With the various problems you are experiencing in your schools, have you ever considered homeschooling? Depending on which part of the country you live in, your children may still be able to participate in sports or other extracurricular activities at the high school. My wife and I both attended public school and assumed our kids would as well. We found that it takes less time to teach our children than to undo bad teaching and to supplement. We have homeschooled our two oldest through high school with excellent results and have two more nearing high school age. Nearly all colleges today accept homeschoolers.</p>
<p>I have thought about it quite a bit actually- but mostly for my oldest- she would have been a natural- I read Mothering magazine for years - read John Holt and even Unschooling magazines- but I have not ever been able to help my current teen much.</p>
<p>even when she was very young, the same things I did with her sister she wouldn't allow- like her sister learned how to read when she was 3, and all I did was scroll my finger along the words while I was reading to her.
When I did that with D2, she took the book and threw it across the room. Her temprament hasn't really improved that much, and I am sorry to say, we push each others buttons real well.</p>
<p>Our district has several alternative high schools and even a homeschooling support center, that would be a resource if I decided to go that route- that might be worth checking out, in case things take a sudden turn again.
Thanks for the reminder.</p>
<p>Emeraldkitty honestly I do not know much about you. You may be in minority who wnats to take care of your kids wducation system in a underperforming school districts. But I think given the conditionas as a praent you have the options to do so:
1. Move out to new school district. (too much cost involve)
2. Bring the books and encourage child to study and supplement your own (this is the best scenriro when you can not control other factors)
3. Demand the teachers that they do their share (It is a very good idea).
3. Blame others and just not do any thing (You do not seems to be one that)
4. Hit the jackpot and not worry about anything. (This is just a joke as I want to do myself that too).
5. Improve the bureacucry by being a active or may be a school board member.
I am sure only you can make a decision which suits your family needs.</p>
<p>FWIW (to go back to an old point) it's not true that every private school just funnels through, takes only the best students, and leaves the most difficult to be educated by the public schools.</p>
<p>Some schools (for example, church-related schools) may include educating special-ed students as part of their mission. Or is my son's current school the only one?</p>
<p>I accept it may not be common, but let's not write them all off as elitist.</p>
<p>(I specialize in comments made a day late and a dollar short)</p>
<p>Hoedown:</p>
<p>You are right everyone wants to take the best. This is human nature. There is a saying in my mother tongue " If one can not improve oneself then try to bring other lower to one's level." No matter what we try we can not make any system perfect. Remember in winner takes it all and and yesterday my Giants went home (ppor performace). Everyone said that they need to play better. Nobody said let us make sure that North Carolina play equally bad. This is life winner are alwys appreciated.</p>
<p>My oldest daughter attended private schools K-12 with a great deal of scholarship assistance from the schools.
Her school does take students with learning disabilties, although that is not their primary function.
Out of her class of 18- I would guess- from talking to them and to their parents, that at least 1/3 could be/were diagnosed with high incidence disablities- dyslexia, ADD, ADHD.
Even at her college, which isn't known for support for learning disabiltities, some of her classmates are dyslexic, have ADD or ADHD or even aspergers, tourettes, and other syndromes which don't necessarily impact intellect, but can impact performance.</p>
<p>I admit the private school and the college have significantly more money per student than the public school.
The private school now runs upward of $20K a year I think, has a full time learning specialist as other professionals who are available to parents and students for no extra charge.
The public school may get $6,000 per student- the PTA does raise that amount by providing money for tutors and extra staff but still doesn't match what is spent at private. ( I do admit however, that especially paraochial schools are able to educate students on a bare bones budget and with larger class sizes- not for everyone- but it helps that they have a mission, and they don't need to be all things to all people- to appease the school board- the voters- the parents and the teacher union)</p>
<p>Contrast that with the psychologist at my younger daughters public school, who last year when I was trying to get her help, said she has a 3.7 gpa , she doesn't need help. But this year, when it was more obvious, wanted to take her out of her classes and put her in "easier" ones. ( midway through the semester)
Many kids can do more challenging work, they just need a little more support. The plus side is though, they will better prepared to go on, and they are more involved in their classes because they are more interesting.
Particulary in high school, we need the schools that can help the students feel vested in their experience- whether it is unschooling/homeschooling, being able to take rigourous classes that will prepare them for college & or courses that will teach them skills for the work force- we need to do a better job at making education meaningful.
For one of the wealthiest countries in the world, our dropout rate is embarrasing.</p>
<p>Xiggi -</p>
<p>Forty years ago you could graduate from high school, get a union job and earn a respectable middle-class salary while working hard. Today that's practically impossible. The reason is the replacement of industrial jobs (which are traditionally unionized) with low-end service jobs that usually aren't. Average real family income has barely increased over the last few decades despite tens of millions of women entering the workforce, simply because the union movement is in decline. The examples of corruption you present, while serious, are hardly a union problem alone. Need I remind you of the many cases of corporate and government embezzlement and waste?</p>
<p>As to teacher's unions - Yes, there is a problem with them. They aren't successful enough! Teacher salaries are disgustingly low for a job that requires a master's degress. That they remain this low is the main failing of the unions. The sensible thing for society to do would be to offer much higher wages in exchange for more accountability, but I've yet to seen any jurisdiction impelment this.</p>
<p>"The examples of corruption you present, while serious, are hardly a union problem alone. Need I remind you of the many cases of corporate and government embezzlement and waste?"</p>
<p>Indeed, there are problems at the corporate and government level, but that hardly constitute an excuse. We should all work together to eradicate abuses and corruption at all levels. What I fail to understand is why people are so lenient when the abuses happen at unions! I have posted a number of examples of corruption that are ALL easily verifiable. The most egregious pattern is that corruption is so ... predictable. </p>
<p>Regarding the NEA, I am still wondering why teachers believe this association is good for them and good for education. You claim that their objective is to raise the salaries of all teachers. Well, they sure succeed to keep the salaries of the inner-circle at a lofty level. The average salary of the NEA employes is double the salary of teachers. Yes, it does pay more to be an employee than an union member. </p>
<p>Further, assuming that organization represents the demographics of the US, we could expect that teachers are about 45-49% democrats and 28-33% republicans. So, how can this organization get away with spending 95% of its political budget on leftist causes? Speaking about budgets, how many teachers do have any knowledge, or even better have a say in the way the organization spends the dues of its members? </p>
<p>Like other unions, there was a time when they served a purpose. This probably was true for the NEA when it was founded in 1857. However, 100 years later, the organization had become the corrupt political animal it is today. A despicable and hopelessly putrid political machine that is failing not only its 2,700,000 sclerotic members but also millions of school children.</p>
<p>Oh, by the way, as far as "They aren't successful enough!" have you ever wondered what would happen if the dues were not mandatory or teachers had more choices?</p>
<p>pyroclastic, "Teacher salaries are disgustingly low for a job that requires a master's degress." Honestly, how hard is it to obtain a master's degree in education? Have you ever met anyone who flunked out of a graduate program in education?</p>
<p>In my area of the country (western suburbs, outside of Philadelphia) teachers salaries are way too high for their educational accomplishments. If the teachers are so good, then let them go out and make substantially more money somewhere in industry. I am not talking about the best teachers. I am sure there are some very excellent, young teachers who are significantly underpaid. But since the union members agree to have their pay based essentially only on years of service, rather than on quality, then I assess their pay based on the worst teachers, who are dramatically overpaid. If you could increase the top pay of teachers by 50 percent, base teacher's pay predominantly on performance, and fire the bad teachers, it would significantly improve the schools. But the unions would never allow it.</p>
<p>NOTE: I expect a barrage of replies such as "How dare you insult my mother and say she is not a good teacher or that she is underpaid." I am assuming that all relatives of CCers are among the top teachers. Hence, under my plan, all would receive 50 percent pay raises. Also, before you attack, look into the typical teacher salaries in the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia. I have no doubt that in many parts of the country teachers may be underpaid.</p>
<p>Have you ever been in a classroom, I mean really been in one for any length of time? It is hard work, and the good ones make it look easy</p>
<p>You would play a football neandrathal millions to entertain you, but are aghast that someone takes on a job not for the money, but because they want to teach</p>
<p>Most teachers are good, most are trying, most go into the profession becuase they have a "calling, you might say</p>
<p>For the same amount of time in school, a person can become a lots of other things, but working with our children, the future, guess that isn't noble enough for you</p>
<p>Sure, some teachers, as in any profession, it is a "default" career, but of all the teachers I know, they have the noblest intentions </p>
<p>My Ds had some mean teachers, they had a lazy teacher, but all in all, they had great teachers</p>
<p>To demean the teachers of America is foolish</p>
<p>And how can you judge performance:</p>
<p>You have kids coming from tough backgrounds, and I don;t just mean innner city. For some of those kids to even stay in school with bad parents, having to work, and all kinds of issues, to me is success</p>
<p>Wouldn't you want the best teachers to take on the toughest challenges if they were willing to? Shouldn't working with kids that don't have the parents- ie foster kids, kids of dads in jail, homeless, those kids may not score well, now, bought the need the best and the most dedicated</p>
<p>working in a suburban, fancy shmancy school with all kinds of resources is fine, but to hurt the teachers that go into the Appalachian Mountains, the inner cities, to say they deserve less because they are willing to work with the toughest cases is very short sighted</p>
<p>Its like telling a cop, well, if you work a neighborhood that historically has less crime, well, you get a bonus, but you police that work in the tough nieghborhood, dealing with the gangs, the grafitti, even though your job is harder, well, cause you gots crime, we are going to pay you less</p>
<p>So, how do you determine TOP teachers, what is the standard?</p>
<p>Whenever anyone criticizes teachers unions, citygirlsmom accuses them of demeaning teachers.</p>
<p>"You ... are aghast that someone takes on a job not for the money, but because they want to teach." Whose post does that refer to? I guess I missed it.</p>
<p>"to hurt the teachers that go into the Appalachian Mountains, the inner cities, to say they deserve less because they are willing to work with the toughest cases is very short sighted."</p>
<p>Who proposed paying teachers less "because they are willing to work with the toughest cases"?</p>
<p>"Shouldn't working with kids that don't have the parents- ie foster kids, kids of dads in jail, homeless, those kids may not score well, now, bought the need the best and the most dedicated" (I assume you intended to say "but they need the best and most dedicated')</p>
<p>I definitely have compassion for kids who have a parent in jail, or no home, or bad role models, etc. In my opinion, such a child can hardly be helped at all in the public schools. Such a child can only be helped through programs that not only address their real, immediate physical and educational needs (i.e. learning how to read, write, do basic math) but also teach morals. And loud but misdirected cries of "separation of church and state" by certain individuals and groups preclude this from being possible in the public schools. My church very actively participates in the Amachi program that mentors kids who have one or both parents in jail.</p>
<p>I am not in favor of abandoning children in innercity schools or in tough neighborhoods. But unfortunately it is probably not possible for a SCHOOL to undo all of the bad that some parents do to their own children. Other programs are required to help such kids, and even then they will likely not do as well as other kids. Pumping more money into the schools does not help. And the activities of teachers' unions does nothing at all to thelp either these kids or the ones whose parents are actively trying to support them.</p>
<p>we definitely need to be more creative in meeting students needs-
denver is tying teacher pay to student performance kind of interesting
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20060105/edit05.art.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20060105/edit05.art.htm</a></p>