Steve Jobs Blames Education Problems on Teacher Unions

Parents Forum
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<p>Steve Jobs on teacher unions:

[quote]
"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked to loud applause during an education reform conference.</p>

<p>"Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win.'"
...</p>

<p>"This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Houston Chronicle article: <a href="http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4560691.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4560691.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>It's only one of the problems with public education. I don't even think it's the major problem, although the lack of leadership among the Teacher's Associations & union organizations relate to the major problem, which is:</p>

<p>--that you can't "fire" students (or negligent parents, or parents with no sense of discipline at home). Many of the students in regular public schoolrooms do not belong there (yet) -- until they get their meds, get a grip on their anger, get treated for their ADD & Asperger's & Autism, get respect for any kind of authority, & get a meal. The social & psychological problems in the regular classrooms in which I visit & sometimes teach, are overwhelming, & thoroughly destructive to any kind of healthy academic environment. The students most hurt by it are those from good homes with intelligent & "together" parents. </p>

<p>Teachers have been told by principals, by parents, by school boards, & by their State Dept's of Education (in my case, probably in other states, too) that they must see to the nonacademic needs of the students, because, Who Else Will? </p>

<p>I need about quadruple or quintuple pay for this: psychologist/psychiatrist, social worker, professional mediator, probation officer, teacher, & unpaid parent. The teacher part is the smallest portion consumed by classroom responsibilities. How teacher unions can sit idly by and just "take" this is incomprehensible to me. They ought to be storming their State Dept's of Education, and having their Unions advocate for a radical change in classroom atmosphere, long before demands for pay increases per se. Neither the State, nor the taxpayers, will support quadruple salaries. </p>

<p>I think Steve Jobs is out of touch. I see many more teachers voluntarily leaving a broken system than teachers refusing to be fired for incompetence. (Unless it's incompetence in the non-teaching roles, since they are after all being asked to practice those professions without licenses in any of them.)</p>

<p>Further, you go into a classroom & there are few to no supplies. The teachers are expected to purchase classroom supplies for students out of their own meager salaries. Now that's a real motivator for professionalism.</p>

<p>(I do not belong to a union, because my role is not really addressed by unionization.)</p>

<p>An additional problem is the tolerance of chaos in the classroom. You see, we're not supposed to enforce any rules because it will make the students "feel bad." We're supposed to "understand." Maybe 15% of such "teaching" days actually consist of teaching. Unions have nothing to do with such situations, but very much to do with tolerance of those situations. Shame on them.</p>

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<p>BRAVO Steve Jobs !</p>

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<p>Epiphany, according to West's book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" the fault for most of that lies with the teacher colleges, which advocates new ways of teaching, and when someone goes old school, they're attacked by the system and teachers, such as the teacher that was featured in Stand and Deliver.</p>

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<p>I know that some teaching programs advocate this, Kamikazewave, but by no means most of them, let alone all of them. The bigger problem in my State are the political pressures which the legislature accedes to: those pressures include an emphasis on psycho-social roles for the teacher, an emphasis on political agendas within the curriculum (substituting various subjects, etc. for the hard core ones), unnecessarily duplicative credentialing & specialization, etc.</p>

<p>My own teaching program had no such nonsense in it. I used to be able, allowed to really teach, & boy did I love it. 90% of my students wanted to learn. Now 90% of them have other agendas.</p>

<p>Further, there's a great deal of pandering, which is publicly driven, not teacher-program or teacher-accreditation driven. There's an expectation on the part of many public school parents that the students will not be required to actually work, that the subjects will be easy, the assignments easy, & the topics all a part of their everyday lives. I recently taught in a classroom where the students were asked to write about what was important to them. Their topics: gangs, violence, drugs, alcohol, parental abuse, rape, & incest. Nothing about their future college or job dreams, prospects, their thoughts about even local or regional issues such as transportation or the environment. </p>

<p>Teachers are also given the impossible task of teaching to maybe 14 different cultures in one classroom, "honoring" each primary language & each primary culture (which I guarantee you, conflict with one another & often with overall classroom needs). I could go on & on; don't get me started.</p>

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<p>I was lucky enough to see Jaime Escalante (the real "Stand and Deliver" teacher) in person. He's an inspiring guy, but very far from typical (unfortunately). I've seen a LOT of teachers and administrators blame their students (Typical comment: "Hey, with the kids we get, what do you expect?") - Escalante's achievements are the rebuttal to that attitude.</p>

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<p>I absolutely agree with Jobs that the principals need to be able to fire bad teachers, not pass them off to other schools or keep them on the payroll but find the least damaging teaching position for them to be in. Just for one example, one of the middle schools in our district had a math-science teacher who was running a florist business out of her classroom during class hours. She'd teach briefly, assign a worksheet for homework and tell them they could get started during class. Kids who had questions were out of luck since she was tied up on her cell phone taking care of her business. Students complained. Parents complained. The only thing the principal could do was move her out of math-science and into something more innocuous like computer typing. Interestingly, she and the worst teacher from the other middle school (also relegated to keyboarding class) were the union reps from those schools.</p>

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<p>I'm not "blaming the students," Mr. Dooley. I'm pointing out the realities of a failed system which is frankly at conflict with itself & cannot decide what it really wants to do. In my region, I would not be allowed to be a Jaime Escalante, because of various constraints & requirements & priorities. I would be fired quickly if I tried that.</p>

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<p>I wasn't directing my comments to you, epiphany, as our posts were almost simultaneous. I can assure you I've heard the "blame the students, blame the parents, blame the demographics" lines many times.</p>

<p>I do agree that there's a lot of wasted effort in trying to serve many masters and objectives. A focus on learning the material and ignoring all the peripheral junk would no doubt be most productive. Calculus is calculus, and your cultural or ethnic background should have nothing to do with anything.</p>

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<p>Suggesting that teachers would be better if they were more like Escalante is like suggesting that physicists would be better if they were more like Albert Einstein. The statement is true, but not in the least helpful.</p>

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<p>I guess I tend to disagree with that statement, Tarhunt. Einstein's success was based on his unique intellect. Escalante may be more charismatic than many teachers, but the key to his success was high expectations (even for barrio kids) and hard work. I think most teachers could emulate Escalante if they were inclined to try.</p>

<p>I'd add that I do think the seniority based system tends to create a feeling among employees that they have few choices. I.e., they are heavily invested in their current job, and have a great fear of leaving (perhaps a legitimate fear, based on economic consequences) and are not inclined to rock the boat.</p>

<p>The reality of the employment marketplace in this century is that jobs don't last forever, and it is quite normal to change employers fairly often and, at least a few times for most individuals, change careers. Employment structures that discourage this natural ebb and flow cause employees to remain in jobs they don't excel at, and prevent managers from moving less effective employees back into the market.</p>

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<p>BRAVO, Epiphany! What you said is exactly on point. I, too, teach, and I teach Honors and Regulars of Spanish III - these kids should want to be there. Yeah, right! There is an element of that, and it is just that element that is being hurt by all the other kids that are there just to get their distinguished diplomas, which their parents are pushing for. I still cannot believe that the quesiton i hear the most every year is "What do I have to do to pass? Not get an " or B, but just pass! No way would that have been asked when I went to school in the Dark Ages, when teachers were respected, especially if they were hard and demanding. Now, if I make it too hard for Johnny, I am hurting him from going to an ivy, instead of the parents realizing that if he can't handle this now, how can he handle an ivy??? And there is still that attitude that many parents have, that they had to work so hard htat they want it easier for their children. So, we are to make it easy enough for all the kids to get A's, and at the same time, make them ready for HYP. And so many parents don't think that school is the kids' job - so they text message their kids while they are in class, or call and leave messages, etc. So the kids don't think anything of doing that back, when they should be concentrating on their work. And we don't have unions, and teachers can be fired anytime, yet, we have low performing schools, as well. So unions are not sole solution to the problem. Quite frankly, the problem is that society overall has developed a sense of entitlement for nothing in return, and is happy to continue to complain about the shcools, but really does not want any changes made, because the changes that would have to be made would interfere with their sense of making things easier for Johnny. I think the only thing that many parents would be happy with is if we could somehow download the information and skills into Johnny's brain with a disc, so Johnny wouldn't have to do anything other than push a button and the material and skills would be there at his fingertips. Quite frankly, I don't blame the kids so much as I blame the parents. My best students had parents who were supportive of teachers who challenged their kids, not the parents who try to bail Johnny out of everything that he does that causes him to be unseccessful. Poor choices ar eapparently OK, because Johnny made them,a nd he is perfect, didn't you know????? It certainly could never be his fault - EVER! So they look for someone else to blame, and who is the easiest target? The teacher. Now it's the unions - before it was uncertified teachers - next it will be inexperienced. Who knows what else someone else will say? I love teaching, but many teachers, I included, are getting very frustrated about all the other things we are expected to do. Get rid of all the governmental red tape, surveys, etc., we have to do everyday, and just let us teach!</p>

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<p>good point, Tarhunt.</p>

<p>The very point is that in a system which features an amazing confusion & abrogation of roles (students who do feel it's not necessary to be students, that they should complain to parents & administrators for being asked to be students; parents who want schools to be the only source of discipline & --judging from the sons & daughters of those parents in particular -- are eitheir incapable or interested in <em>home</em> discipline as a model; administrators who are not interested in leading -- in such a dysfunctional system, those roles are simply not being performed, but are either absent or being foisted upon the classroom teacher. "Students, parents, & administrators" are not making it possible for even the basically competent teacher to do his or her job.</p>

<p>I agree with Tarhunt. There should be no particular requirement that every teacher be a Moses or a Jesus. A professional teaching program, & a legislature backing up those professional standards itself, will enable the good but not "miraculous" teacher to start as basically competent & becoming increasingly competent throughout one's career. (The typical & time-honored pattern, which really is true for those who have an ability & an inclination to teach.)</p>

<p>Not only is the classroom teacher being asked to be Jaime Escalante, more importantly, and more inappropriately, the teacher is being asked to be Mother Teresa. I mean, Freud got paid, did he not? Social workers get agency salaries. Cops are on a gov't payroll. Psychiatrists charge a major fortune. But teachers are supposed to perform these roles for free???? WHERE are the teacher unions in this, and WHY do they not object to the inappropriate assignment of roles?</p>

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<p>Roger:</p>

<p>I'm not suggesting that everything is perfectly all right with modern education. I simply disagree, and strongly disagree, that telling teachers they should be more like Escalante is some sort of solution. Escalante is obviously a master teacher. It's not just a matter of setting higher standards. It's a matter of, first, inspiring kids, then giving them the idea that they can do what you want them to do, and mixing that in with first-rate instructional technique. Not everyone is good at that. If you want better schools, the system has to be better.</p>

<p>With your approach, a general could win any war by just being more like Alexander.</p>

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<p>My wife spent time in a classroom on last week that featured refugees from Somalia. They speak no English. The children had to be taught how to use a modern toilet. One little boy turned up missing and they found him in a janitor's closet, turning the light on and off and on and off. </p>

<p>The teacher had a good sense of humor about it, but that didn't change the fact that she spent a good half of her time just dealing with these children.</p>

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<p>the trouble with Steve Jobs' comments is that we also have bad principals who would fire good teachers bcos they didn't adhere to the bad principal's philosophy. For example, an elementary school principal in our distric was a strong advocate for programs for disabled students. While a good thing, her perception of GATE kids was typical: don't need no stinkin' GATE program bcos those kids will do well regardless. She even refused teacher requests to add depth and complexity for GATE kids in violation with State law. Fortunately, she retired.</p>

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<p>The problem with this argument is that there is nothing in epiphany's position that contradicts what Jobs said. Ephiphany could be completely correct and so could Jobs. IMHO the best solution is to offer higher teacher compensation as a quid pro quo for the elimination of tenure and other job security measures at the K-12 level.</p>

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<p>curious:</p>

<p>I disagree. The best solution is to increase learning productivity per teacher by using technology better. Around 80% of education costs are personnel related. Increase pay by 20% and total costs of education go up by 16%. In the long run, that model is not supportable, especially with an underfunded SS system and massive federal debt. And this isn't even mentioning that increasing pay now wouldn't pay off for many years. Increase productivity and you can pay fewer teachers more, attracting better quality people (on average) without setting up a system that is bound to fail when voters refuse to pay.</p>

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<p>Tarhunt,</p>

<p>I don't disaggree. Technology is seriously underutilized in education. But even if thats true, it doen't mean that the system would not be better off without powerful teachers unions and the associated work rule and firing restrictions that Jobs is objecting to.</p>

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<p>If you think you can get rid of those restrictions without offering some kind of quid pro quo great.</p>