Guess you don’t have any pets! We live in a semir rural area. We have vets around here who take care of house pets, and we have vets around here who care for farm animals. There are also vets at zoos, and the like.
Animals also need good doctors.
I would echo that I would think long and hard about a vet degree. Remember that folks generally pay for vet services out-of-pocket without insurance, so there is a natural limit to what people can afford to spend, as much as they love their animals. I look at the facilities of most of the vet offices I’ve been to, and it’s clear the vets don’t have a lot of spare cash lying around. And I would also echo having her spend time shadowing or working in a vet office to get a real understanding of what it’s about.
^^^^ I have a friend who is a vet. She still loves her job and the money is ok, but she says they are “the forgotten consequences of a sagging economy” i.e. when the economy is hurting, people don’t bring in their pets for routine physicals and shots because it is expensive!
“If my daughter was thinking of vet/medical school, I would be looking at a biology or physiology undergraduate programme. Even biochemistry would be good. I’m thinking of courses that would be useful down the line in professional school.”
- I do not know about pre-vet, but pre-med could be any major, absolutely any one, any combo of major(s) / minor(s). I know people who were accepted to medical school(s) after conservatory of music. Medical school does not care about the name of your UG and abount your major, they care a lot about GPA, MCAT score, medical ECs and your personality. Just need to take all medical school pre-reqs (math, English, bio, physics, chem, orgo, some require anatomy and biochem) and get even better GPA in these than your general GPA and you are all set. My D. graduated with the Zoology major / Music minor and almost finished Neuroscience minor. Why Zoology and not Biology? Well, at her in-state public, Zoology was simply a very strong department which led to the fact that the most pre-meds were Zoology major. But there were other pre-meds with other majors.
Engineering is very challenging but possible. It is very challenging all by itself. On top of this general engineering challenge, pre-med has requirements of very high college GPA of at least 3.6+, substantial hours of medical ECs, preparation for the MCAT during junior year (few hours every day for several weeks) and traveling to medical school interviews during senior year. It has been done but it requires very fine time management skills including multitasking.
Following up on Posts #35 and 40, is OP’s daughter very comfortable around larger animals - horses, cows etc.? Not all vet opportunities are going to be clinics in affluent suburbs, tending to house pets. Kids who grow up around these animals and have experience tending to them are going to be much more at ease. I am not an animal person myself, and I always felt that animals I encounter can sense that. My sister teaches in the midwest and she says many of her students study pre-vet or something related to vet sciences. They’ve grown up in farm country, done 4-H, and at ease with the barnyard friends.
No, veterinary medicine is not a growing field at this point; with the economy in a slide for so long, it is actually a shrinking field – fewer people can afford to pay for care for their animals, and you have fewer people having large animals as pets (e.g., horses). Thus the need for her to soberly consider the realities of the situation and give herself options. Hard to plan your whole life at 16/17 years old … which is why we are talking to her about trying to keep doors open for as long as possible. She’s in the enviable position of pretty much being able to do whatever she wants … and she doesn’t have to decide now; but she needs to make decisions that keep as many options as possible open while she grows/matures/gains experience/decides.
The reality is that vets do not have the income potential doctors do; so they can’t realistically afford to take the same kind of debt load that med students might. If they do, they will never get out from under it. But some do, paying whatever it costs to go to vet school wherever they can get in … they graduate with $300K+ of debt, and then find themselves maybe earning $60k per year. Unsustainable. Article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/business/high-debt-and-falling-demand-trap-new-veterinarians.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 So yes, if vet school remains the goal, then UG needs to be debt free … and the more inexpensive it is, the less debt she’ll incur for vet school because we’ll be able to help.
She has no interest in being a doctor for people. She does have interest in engineering. That’s why that’s one of the UG paths she’s investigating. I don’t want to discourage her from following her passion, but she also needs to recognize that she can enjoy and love and work with animals even if she doesn’t become a vet. In fact, she might better be able to afford that horse she’s always longed for if her career is in something else.
UMCP is certainly a good option, and she may well end up there. But it is very, very competitive; she’ll be competitive for Banneker/Key, but there’s also a high probability she doesn’t get it. Oh, I’m sure she’ll get some $. But I will be very surprised if it is a full tuition scholarship. And room/board at UMCP is very expensive; certainly she could live at home, but going away is something she’d like to be able to do. So, we’re looking at schools where she might actually get that full ride … even with travel costs, it could be more affordable than UMCP.
In Texas, if your daughter is a NMF, consider Baylor and UT Dallas. She should consider A&M but note that the A&M NMF scholarship requires maintaining a high GPA, but A&M has excellent agriculture classes. Check out the degree programs.
http://aglifesciences.tamu.edu/academics/undergraduate/undergraduate-table/
I would be very hesitant about having your DD start out at CC. She is very accomplished, but I do understand your desire to limit the money spent on her undergrad is she wants to be a vet.
Community college is ridiculous for her (she can keep it as a backup financially and safety wise if the sky falls, but she shouldn’t have to use that) unless your budget is under $10K out of pocket living at home or you don’t want her living away … Montgomery College program is OK, but MD is not California, so the CC->UC path … not really.
… UMBC has very large scholarships and she is even a candidate for Bannaker Key at UM-CP. UMBC is a fine school … UDel has a fine honors program and merit aid. Salisbury would be better than community college.
UMD-CP is $25K a year total, including room and board. She could commute to there or another in-state option … The education is excellent, the honors programs are excellent, engineering is excellent.
Chemical engineering is not a good pre-vet major, only advantage is overlap between pre-med and early engineering classes, but it is really hard and would also likely not meet her interests if this ended up being her career. I would think biomedical, biotechnology, agricultural engineering … or say biochemistry … would be a better fit. If you are say mechanical engineers and she likes physics 1 mechanics, you could consider ME, EE if more electrical … possibly she could design some medical / vet equipment.
Case Western, Tulane, URochester all give good merit aid, which puts you in the $35K a year type price range.
What is her budget, exactly ?
Would also look at Pitt. Scholarship criteria have changed, but she would almost certainly be in the automatic range and I think they have several cross-registration programs with CMU.
Would second all of the advice about considering Vet School. In our area, the Vets are struggling as people don’t maintain routine health care for their pets in an uncertain economy. Also, very difficult to pay student loans on an average Vet salary.
Even with ACT, would advise daughter to take multiple subject tests in her strengths. High scores can strengthen a scholarship application.
Case Western will definitely offer a lot in Merit award, D’s was shy by $5k of full tuition, but it was many years ago. It is great school for both engineering and pre-med, not sure if they have any pre-vet advising though.
It might be a shame to make decisions about undergrad based on future grad school costs. It is hard to tell, which is your problem 
As you said, there are many ways to be around animals.
Does she feel pressure to choose a career before applying to schools? Can she just apply to schools undeclared, and try out some courses, explore without making it about a future job? Of, if she really wants engineering, could she apply for that but make sure it is a school she would still want if she changes her mind?
With her stats and ability, she could get into some really really good and interesting schools. I understand the financial challenges with college costs, but maybe some schools will offer aid in various forms that you don’t expect, including merit.
At many of the more selective schools (state flagship level and some private schools), students need to apply specifically to an engineering major or to the engineering division. Otherwise, if one enters the school outside of the engineering division, it may be difficult to switch to an engineering major (need a high GPA or competitive secondary admission process). It is best to check whether this is an issue at each school before applying and matriculating.
Engineering majors often have long prerequisite sequences, so even if entering the major is not an issue, the student needs to be careful to make sure that s/he is on track to graduate on schedule in the desired major.
My pet’s vet is a former large animal veterinarian from Wisconsin who changed gears mid-career and opened a private practice in the Boston area now seeing cats, dogs, and other small animals.
https://cvm.ncsu.edu/education/dvm/admission/eligibility/
The prereqs for vet school are listed at the above website for NCSU’s vet school. You will notice some of the classes are upper division hence not being offered at a CC. Beyond the class prereqs there is also a time committment and LORs from supervising vets. Three of my children were pre-vet, pre-med and a mech eng grad so I am familiar with what was required academically and EC-wise.
We are NC residents (actually moved here from CA) for NCSU’s pre-vet and vet school program and UNC’s med school. Son is graduating in May from med school. Daughter has been out of NCSU for a few years now. Other son graduated 3 years ago with a mech e degree. Daughter was an animal science (pre-vet concentration vs. industry) major with an equine science concentration (for those with large animal interests.)
Many of her fellow grads did not go on to practice but rather some work for the CDC, USDA and private firms such as GSK, B and D and others. Some are fulfilling their military service obligation for the scholies they received. But here in NC large animal vets are in high demand. So rather varied employment after vet school.
As far as NCSU their undergrad program is intergreted with the vet school with prof crossover as well as research opportunities both in the lab and in the field. NCSU has 7 or 8 field labs with allow for residential living. The Equine unit houses a foaling barn which provides housing to the students, no charge as long as student does 10 hours a week. The equine unit is a breeding and training program for race horses. Truly interesting. There is also a Dairy unit, small ruminent, water fowl, swine…you get the idea.
http://harvest.cals.ncsu.edu/ncars/index.cfm?pageID=2625
Son that was pre-med was an econ major and was easily able to complete his pre-reqs. I think it would be difficult to fulfill the acaemic pre-reqs and ECs necessary for vet school as an engineering major. Vet school needs little math, engineering needs calc through Def EQ. Vet school wants animal nutrition and all the pre-reqs necessary to be eligible to take animal nutrition. Physiology and anatomy labs for animals can be time-consuming. And yes the pre-reqs for med school are not nearly as specific as vet school to make a competitive candidate.
Your daughter’s stats sound like she might be eligible to be a NCSU Parks’ scholar.
https://park.ncsu.edu/
https://park.ncsu.edu/apply/
https://park.ncsu.edu/apply/selection-criteria/
She also needs to maintain a high GPA and the time investment to be a competitve vet school applicant. Engineering can impede a high GPA, same is true for med school.
At NCSU the biocem major is just a few classes different than the animal science major. Which also overlaps within a few classes of a microbiology major and a genetics minor is buried within both if classes are chosen carefully. That allows a great back-up degree(s) while applying to vet school. Sometimes you don’t get in on the first, second or even third time.
NCSU’s vet school is difficult to get into, right behind Cornell and UC Davis sometimes even more. But it does provide a great pre-vet foundation that will allow for admittance to other vet school’s even from OOS. The grads end up at FL, Auburn, Tufts, Mississippi, and others.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask me for more specifics if necessary.
Kat
https://www.ncsu.edu/academics/departments-a-z/
https://bio.sciences.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/undergraduate-degrees/microbiology/
https://bio.sciences.ncsu.edu/undergraduate/undergraduate-degrees/genetics/
The animal science and biochem degrees are in the College of Ag and life sciences. The microbio and genetics programs are in the College of Sciences.
However you might have your daughter take a look at all the possible science programs. My daughter was also very interested in the crop and soil science and wildlife programs. Son also liked the entomology program. Other son that was a mech e was also very interested in the new nanoengineering and nano science programs at UNC Greensboro/NC A&T.
UNC Chapel Hill might also be an option for her with her stats, all UNC schools are limited to 18% OOS but her stats would make her a competitive candidate.
Kat
You should check on Purdue. They have a program (new this year?) where you apply as a senior in HS, then do 3 years of undergrad, then start vet school in the 4th year. So graduate in 7 years total. It is for “high achieving seniors”–seems to me your D would qualify. I don’t know about cost, although Purdue is a place that does give merit money to out of state kids.
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Apply to “lower-ranked” universities (in terms of engineering) out of state who are likely to offer her bigger $ – U of Alabama, Mississippi State, Auburn, etc… Trade off here is the much greater distance from home (travel costs, and is she really ready to be that far away?), and the fact that these programs are less well known so might be less challenging (that might be a good thing, as far as maintaining GPA goes) and give her a less marketable degree. Example, MSU only requires a 23 ACT/1060 SAT for admission to engineering. On the other hand, she might be a “big fish” in these programs…
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You have some mistaken premises. These programs won’t be “less challenging.” They will be tough.
Who cares WHAT minimum score a school requires for ADMISSION into eng’g. I can almost guarantee you that if that person can’t cut it, he/she will be weeded out the first semester or two. The school isn’t going to cheapen its program so that a modest stats student can thrive. One reason that southern public schools have such minimums is that these are holdover guidelines (and some laws) that prevent them from raising the bar too high in order to exclude AA students. The average AA ACT score in the United States is about an ACT 17…so if a southern public were to require - say - an ACT 28 minimum to get into eng’g, guess which group would be largely shut out? Do you want that? So…schools like MSU have low minimums.
You may be shocked that Bama has NO MINIMUM to get into eng’g. If you can get into the school, you can try eng’g if you’d like. Of course, the reality is that those with low test scores often don’t try eng’g or if they do, they are often weeded out after taking Calculus, Gen Chem and/or Physics.
The degrees will NOT be “less marketable” (who the heck told you that???) MSU has a very respected eng’g program, as do the other mentioned schools.
Rankings for eng’g are almost worthless. This country and each state needs a huge number of engineers graduating each year. So, each state has a vested interest in having at least a few, but often SEVERAL or MANY very good eng’g programs. The state of Calif ALONE has about 25 very good eng’g programs (I guess you might say that some provide “less marketable degrees,” but you’d be wrong). As a Calif native working in the aerospace industry I regularly saw eng’g grads from CSULB, CSUF, UCLA, UCB, Santa Clara, Cornell, Purdue, UMich…all get hired at the SAME PAY RATE. And those who got promoted didn’t get selected because of their schools’ names, they got promoted based on their performances.
Anyway…if the state of Calif alone can have around 25 or so very good eng’g programs, can you see how rankings are meaningless? Makes little to no difference if a program is ranked number 25 or 125.
so, don’t be afraid to have your DD apply to some schools that give large merit for stats. Visit these schools and you’ll be impressed with their facilities. Bama has a new Science and Engineering Complex which added 900,000 sq ft of new STEM academic space. Truly amazing with all the state of the art equipment and labs.
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Wants to be a vet, but recognizes the reality that getting into vet school is a gamble, so she wants to have a marketable undergrad that gives her other options as well. She’s considering engineering … chemical or biomedical, thinking it might be easier to get the pre-reqs for vet school done via those curricula. S
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Either one is fine as a pre-vet or pre-health major. ChemE is more marketable since a grad can walk into an $85k per year job upon graduation, while a BioMedE grad may need to get a grad degree first.
Both likely include most/all of the pre-vet pre-reqs, so that won’t be an issue.
Eng’g is one of the hardest majors to get a high GPA, so that may be a consideration. However, it can be done if very diligent.
Don’t expect any merit from VT. VT is stingy with merit…even for high stats females in eng’g. Many schools want mroe females in eng’g, but don’t seem to want to offer money for that. I don’t know if it’s because many good students start in eng’g but end up changing their majors…or what. I guess a school may not want to award an incoming frosh a half tuition (or whatever) scholarship for being a female in eng’g and then have her change her major and then can’t afford the school.
How did your DD do on the PSAT? If she makes NMSF/F, she can get larger awards.
Mom2collegekids is right about Alabama’s engineering school. It is very challenging … but very rewarding, too.
My son is a Bama grad (economics and political science with minors in math and computer-based honors). His best friends were engineering majors. One is from the Dallas area who had a 36 on the ACT and nearly a perfect SAT. She, like my son, was a National Merit scholar. She turned down the likes of VT, Duke and Rice for Bama. Won all sorts of prestigious national scholarships including a Goldwater and later, a Mitchell. Got her undergrad degree paid for. Got her masters in engineering paid for – and she did that in Ireland. Now she’d at Stanford getting her PhD – again paid for. One of my son’s roommates has a chemical engineering degree. He works in consulting in New York City. Another is getting his PhD in chemistry from Stanford. Another is in his third year of med school. And, one of his fraternity brothers got a very nice engineering position in KC, long before graduation, too.
Mom2collegekids has a son who got his chemE degree at Bama. He is in med school.
I also have a younger son at Alabama Huntsville, which has an outstanding engineering school. The city is also home to NASA, Northrup Grumman, Boeing and lots and lots of engineering firms. As my son puts it, you can graduate into a job there. He has several friends who will do so,
I will echo that VT does not offer much in terms of merit money – we live in VA.