<p>So I am currently being recruited by Indiana University as well as Harvard. Two very different schools! Although having a 4.0 GPA i would be a low band player at Harvard. Although the competition would be weaker, the playing time would most likely increase, and of course the academics would be far superior. But on the other hand, no matter what I would be paying a solid amount of money to go to Harvard. The question is, would this be worth it? When I am older I want to be in the FBI. I'm assuming, eventhough the FBI is very selective, a degree from Harvard would basically be a lock to get hired. On the other hand, IU is on the uprise and could be contending for a B1G championship soon. Also I would not have to pay a dime to go there. But is it worth the risk of not getting into my dream job later in life? I realize my chances of the NFL are quite slim so that is not even in consideration. Any thoughts on which school I should attend?</p>
<p>You’re a funny guy, Alex.</p>
<p><em>sad face</em></p>
<p>Go to Harvard…while Harvard does not give athletic scholarships they are need blind and give very generous financial aid based on your family’s need. </p>
<p>As an example: If you family makes under $60,000 per year you will go there for free if you can get in.</p>
<p>If you don’t already know what “need blind” is…it is that the University will accept you first without knowing whether you can afford to go there or not. THEN they figure out where your family stands financially to see what you can afford.</p>
<p>Harvard has the largest endowment fund (around $32 billion) which is where this money comes from.</p>
<p>Good luck</p>
<p>I agree with Marshack, do your due diligence to find out the cost to go to Harvard since that seems to be a hang up with you. If they are seriously recruiting you, I would have thought they would have discussed this with you already.</p>
<p>All other things being equal it isn’t a difficult choice IMHO. Harvard is a great school, great location, and their football team is pretty good. I’m a big believer in going where you can play.</p>
<p>Here’s what two Ivy football players told me after being graduate assistant coaches while getting graduate degrees at big-time schools:</p>
<p>“I would never let my son get a big-time football scholarship. Even though all the players graduate, it is football first, education second here.”</p>
<ul>
<li>This was from a former NFL player while he was coaching at one of the major conference schools that many would call an Ivy-comparable school that inhabited the bottom of its conference.</li>
</ul>
<hr>
<p>“The difference between football at (private university ranked in the top 25 or 35 academically in a major conference that was the league doormat) and the Ivy League is that the coaches at my school have total control of the players’ lives.”</p>
<hr>
<p>Both of these schools are considered to be far better than Indiana academically.</p>
<hr>
<p>Football at the big-time schools can really prevent an education, regardless of what the coaches will tell you (coaches when recruiting lie, whether they are in the big time or in the Ivy League, by the way). At Indiana, you’ll be mixed in with players who just barely met the NCAA minimum academic standards, aren’t capable of learning and don’t even care to. In The Blind Side, Michael Lewis said that after the final game of their senior year at Mississippi, some of the players simply packed up and went home. They were nowhere close to graduating.</p>
<p>The athletic academic advisor has to sign off on your schedule at a big-time school. They can stop you from taking a course or major if they decide it gets in the way of football. </p>
<p>In the Ivy League, we would have ignored or told off a coach if he ever tried to get involved with our course selections (and the athletic department will not be aware of your course selections), but I never heard of a coach who ever did so. Ivy football games are only on weekends, so classes are rarely missed because of games.</p>
<p>The football time commitment at Indiana will be brutal. Also, as far as I understand this (correct me if this has changed recently), the athletic scholarship will be one-year renewable, so the coach can dump you if he decides you’re not in his team’s future. In the Ivy League, your financial aid will not be contingent at all on your participation in athletics. Quit the team and your aid will remain the same. At Harvard, Yale or Princeton, you could be going for free or almost for free, depending on your income. The Net Price Estimator will give you a good idea of this.</p>
<p>By the way, if the NCAA goes back to the old guaranteed four-year scholarship system, or if you go to one of the few schools that offer guaranteed 4-year scholarships, scholarship schools could go back to running off players. “Running off” was getting a player to quit the team or leave school by nabbing him on a minor disciplinary issue, setting him up to flunk out or having other players beat him up or injure him. Read the book, “Meat on the Hoof,” to learn more about this. This is not fiction - coaches and players at big-time schools told me this went on.</p>
<p>Here’s two articles about the one-year renewable scholarship - read them both, because they each cover different information:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/05/ncaa_scholarship_rules_it_s_morally_indefensible_that_athletic_scholarships_can_be_yanked_after_one_year_for_any_reason_.html[/url]”>http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/05/ncaa_scholarship_rules_it_s_morally_indefensible_that_athletic_scholarships_can_be_yanked_after_one_year_for_any_reason_.html</a></p>
<p>[Some</a> in Big Ten offering 4-year scholarships - ESPN](<a href=“http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7528614/some-big-ten-offering-4-year-scholarships]Some”>Some in Big Ten offering 4-year scholarships - ESPN)</p>
<p>PS: Yes, it is more likely that you get our dream job coming out of Harvard than Indiana, although no job, whether it be the FBI or a partner at Goldman, is a lock.</p>
<p>By the way, the current FBI Director went to an Ivy League school:</p>
<p>[Robert</a> Mueller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller]Robert”>Robert Mueller - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>dont feed â– â– â– â– â– </p>
<p>I checked his other posts, and he looks legit. It’s always possible he’s making all of this up, but even if that’s true, someone else can benefit from the material in this thread. My college roommate had to choose between full boats at big-time schools and the Ivy League at full pay, and chose the Ivy League, so there are kids facing this choice.</p>
<p>Earthpig</p>
<p>The information you present in post #6 is somewhat dated. NCAA rules have changed significantly since “meat on the hoof” was written in 1972. NCAA D1 athletes are required to maintain a full time schedule and make satisfactory progress toward a degree to be eligible to compete. Entering freshman make course selections and may decide their major prior to arriving on campus without input from the athletic department. After that football players at D1 schools make course selection while being advised by an academic advisor who is a faculty member from their major. Most D1 athletic departments have academic coordinators who check to make sure the athlete has registered for enough hours to be considered a full time student. The academic coordinator will receive periodic grade reports from faculty members during the course to identify those athletes who may have difficulty passing a course. Athletes at Ivy League schools are also monitored to ensure that they are compliant with NCAA regulations.</p>
<p>swimskidad,</p>
<p>Are you suggesting D1 football players (revenue streams) are in full control of their academic environment? In today’s world? Seriously? I don’t share that optimism. While it may not be as cut and dried as when “Meat on the Hoof” came out in’72, almost all college football players and revenue athletes today are led down a very specific path by the coaches and academic advisors. Deviation from that path will be met with resistance and possible indirect punishment. I even see it in non-revenue sports such as D1 baseball. There is a reason why most of these top tier athletes are not STEM majors, and the school doesn’t want them to be STEM majors. Challenging majors take time away from what the athlete can be doing for the University…making money directly (playing) or indirectly (practicing, training).</p>
<p>Check out “Beer and Circus” by Murray Sperber. At some Big-time U’s, the undergraduate experience now amounts to a four-year tailgate party with a hefty yearly cover charge. Athletes even more so, as they are part of the funding engine along with research institutes to keep the higher education money train moving forward. Top football/basketball coaches are the rainmakers not the university president. Guess who holds the power…those who bring in the money!</p>
<p>^while all athletes must be “full time” students, that definition does not mean that four years of full time student equals enough credits to graduate. I believe that a student can take as few as 9 credits (in a school where 15 credits per semester for four years are required to graduate), and remain eligible (wouldn’t bet the house on this info, however).</p>
<p>If someone is really interested, google the APR rate of various sports and schools. The APR rate is a calculation of graduation rates of athletes. While the NCAA sets minimum APR standards, waivers are often granted to schools before meaningless sanctions(e.g., losing a few scholarships) are imposed. Not surprisingly, the APRs at the Ivys are at the top end of the chart - many sports have perfect scores.</p>
<p>Stemit </p>
<p>In my previous post I was referring to the NCAA definitions of “full time student” and “satisfactory progress toward a degree”. </p>
<p>Fenway</p>
<p>“Are you suggesting D1 football players (revenue streams) are in full control of their academic environment? In today’s world? Seriously?”</p>
<p>No. I am suggesting that NO athlete participating in a D1 NCAA sport is in full control of their academic environment. All athletes must meet NCAA eligibility requirements and are carefully monitored by their athletic departments. This would include Ivy League football and baseball. For more details about this I would contact your S athletic director.</p>
<p>I know several physicians who have completed their undergraduate pre-med (i.e. STEM) degree while playing football for D1 teams. I also know a current pre-med student who plays for a D1 football team which was recently ranked in the top 20. He has not been punished or sanctioned for selecting a STEM major. I also know a faculty member at a D1 university who has advised football players about course selection. This was done without any input from the coaching staff.</p>
<p>“Almost all college football players and revenue athletes today”- specifically which schools?</p>
<p>“are led down a very specific path”- which path?</p>
<p>“by the coaches and academic advisors”- see above.</p>
<p>“deviation from that path”- how specifically does the athelete deviate from the “path”?</p>
<p>“will be met with resistance”- how?</p>
<p>“and possible indirect punishment”-what specific punishment?</p>
<p>This discussion would not be complete without discussing another football player from a top 20 team. Barret Jones earned an accounting degree with a 4.0 average and a masters degree with a 4.0 average. He did this while starting for 3 national championship teams. As far as I know he was never “punished” for his major or course selection.</p>
<p>swimkidsdad,</p>
<p>You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I’ve seen and heard way too much to convince me otherwise.</p>
<p>I see the big time D1 football player student athletes role at most (not all) universities much differently than you. I hear the stories from families I personally know about how they are treated, the options put in front of them, and the punishment (playing time, scholarship reduction, locker room privileges, travel privileges) that are used as leverage against them if they do not do as suggested. Yes, it is the school’s way or the highway. I see this clear as day in D1 football and I see it in other sports too depending on their competitive level. Coaches want to win (now) because they can make more money at the next gig or get their contract extended. The school’s administration is complicit because the money keeps rolling in from alumni, brand marketing, radio & TV shows, and the whole local economies of these schools. It is big time business. BTW…Notre Dame just extended their contract with NBC although I would not put Notre Dame in the same bucket as some of the other schools. Notre Dame would be the exception to the rule.</p>
<p>Academic advisors strongly suggest to football players and baseball players (that I personally know) to take this course and this major because it will be easier for you. When my son was recruited for baseball at an ACC school 4 years ago, the coach came right out to tell him that he can’t be a baseball player and engineer on this team. We had a similar discussion with an SEC baseball coach although he was much more subtle. If that isn’t letting the cat out of the bag, I’m not sure what else I need to tell you.</p>
<p>I think it is great you can point to exceptions to the rule (Barret Jones). I wish that young man well, and maybe there is hope that this whole dysfunctional system will be fixed. As long as there is big time dollars at stake, coaches’ careers on the line, and the NCAA involved; it isn’t going to change. I would strongly urge the OP who started this thread to go to Harvard if it is an option. Stay away from big time athletics unless you want to play professionally.</p>
<p>Fenway</p>
<p>“I see the big time D1 football player student athletes role at most (not all) universities much differently than you.”</p>
<p>I never stated the role of student-athletes in any of my post. I was simply describing the process by which D1 football players select majors and course schedules.</p>
<p>“Coaches want to win (now) because they can make more money at the next gig or get their contract extended.”</p>
<p>At high profile football programs (i.e. top 20 teams) coaches must win a certain number of games per year or they will be fired. If they are fired from a high profile coaching job it is very difficult for them to find a similar job that will pay them as much money.</p>
<p>“the punishment (playing time, scholarship reduction, locker room privileges, travel privileges) that are used as leverage against them if they do not do as suggested.”</p>
<p>In order to win, which high profile coaches must do to keep their jobs, football coaches will determine playing time and spots on the travel team based on which athletes give them the greatest chance to win and not on which course a particular athlete is taking. Preventing football players from watching game film and using training facilities is also counterproductive to winning football games. All D1 football scholarships are full scholarships therefore they cannot be reduced. Asking a good football player such as Barret Jones to leave simply because they selected a course that the coach didn’t like is also counterproductive. Coaches can only offer 25 new scholarships per year and have a max team roster of 85 scholarships. Therefore they can only loose less than 4 players per class per year to remain competitive with other teams. Injury, red shirting and off the field problems will account for most of the 4.</p>
<p>“When my son was recruited for baseball at an ACC school 4 years ago, the coach came right out to tell him that he can’t be a baseball player and engineer on this team.”</p>
<p>This school was Georgia Tech? No? I didn’t think so.</p>
<p>I will finish this by mentioning another football player- Nick Stoner. He is a wide receiver and a mathematics major. He plays for Indiana University. Apparently this school is also the “exceptions to the rule” which is good news for the OP.</p>
<p>swimkidsdad,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We disagree on how this process works at most D1 football colleges. I’m fine with that. You’ll sleep fine tonight and so will I. You think the player has control over their schedule and majors. My experience is he doesn’t have as much control as he should. In fact, most have very little control over this, and it is strongly suggested by the academic advisors (proxy for the coaches) that they take courses that will make it easier for them to play their sport.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The coaches will work you out of their system and way of doing things. College football depth charts are long. They will bring up somebody who does what they are told rather than deal with someone who doesn’t unless they have talent that can’t be replaced.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, it isn’t GT. We figured out pretty quickly that my son was a talent stretch for the ACC/SEC, and finding the field was going to be a huge challenge. Given those circumstances, my son’s logic was why invest the time into a sport when you may see the field when you are a junior while maintaining a competitive major. I had to agree with him.</p>
<p>There is no question there are exceptions such as Nick Stoner. I have one that lives across the street from me. He played baseball in a top 5 school, and graduated with a Biology degree and scored high on his MCATS. He is playing minor league baseball right now. He told me it was a absolute battle in college, and has shared many stories about it. It just doesn’t work out for most people, the top coaches are extremely resistant to folks doing their own thing.</p>
<p>Again, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.</p>
<p>Fenway,</p>
<p>Out of respect for the OP who started this thread we should probably limit our discussions to football programs.</p>
<p>“In fact, most have very little control over this, and it is strongly suggested by the academic advisors (proxy for the coaches) that they take courses that will make it easier for them to play their sport.”</p>
<p>First off if we are discussing course selections for football players at major D1 programs we must include Alabama. No exceptions for this school. Next name on the list for Alabama is Greg McElroy. He completed his undergraduate degree in business in 3 years with a GPA of 3.85. This didn’t seem to bother his coach who helped him get a job playing in the NFL. Other programs include Michigan. Jack Kennedy is a quarterback from Michigan who majored in mathematics and physics. The schools in the state of Florida that have won national championships have had many scholarship football players who are now MDs.</p>
<p>“College football depth charts are long”</p>
<p>Including special teams each team has 3 players per position on average.</p>
<p>“They will bring up somebody”</p>
<p>No. Successful coaches will play the best player if possible. They do not check a player’s course schedule before deciding whether or not to put him in for a particular play.</p>
<p>Finally from the Univ. of Alabama student-athlete handbook:</p>
<p>“Athletic Academic Advisors in the Center for Athletic Student Services are not the student-athletes’ primary advisors concerning course selection. Students at The University of Alabama are assigned a divisional advisor upon entering the University. As professional educators, divisional advisors are knowledgeable about the degree requirements of their particular programs of study. Therefore, student-athletes are encouraged to develop and maintain close ties with divisional advisors who assist them in registration and class scheduling. However, it is important to note that each student-athlete retains sole responsibility for becoming familiar with all policies and procedures governing completion of the degree program in which the student is registered.”</p>
<p>For the sake of the OP I think our side discussion on this topic is done. Anyone reading this thread can draw their own conclusions from our discussions. If you must have the last word I will not comment on your next post. I may however give my advice to the OP about his original question soon.</p>