For All 2015 Applicants - A Note About Applying

<p>Hello to all the pFrosh out there!</p>

<p>I've glanced over a good number of the threads on this forum, and a lot of them are "Chance Me" posts. Many of these posts list academic history, test records, extracurricular involvement, and the like. However, for the fields "Essays" and "Recommendations", many of them are just "Good", or "Alright".</p>

<p>I would like to tell you that the essays and recommendations are a lot more important than many of these posts make them appear.</p>

<p>The way I see it, your statistics get your foot in the door. As long as you have a satisfactory base of academic history (2000+ SAT, good number of AP courses, depending on availability, extracurricular involvement, some kind of leadership position, decent GPA), you'll be set in that respect.</p>

<p>However, the essays and recommendations are what separate the men from the boys. When it comes down to it, Adcom doesn't see a difference between a 2200 and a 2300 SAT, nor one between a 4.5 and a 4.7 GPA, nor one between being President of one club versus two.</p>

<p>What Adcom does look for, however, is a sense of each individual. DO NOT slack on your essays. In addition, DO NOT take the recommendations lightly. These are very important, because these are the factors that are going to set you apart from the other exceptionally gifted academics out there.</p>

<p>So what's the point behind this post? Stop asking people to chance you based off of your statistics. Instead, focus on how you can make your essays great, or how you can get better recommendations from your teachers. Get feedback on your essays from your teachers, or your counselor, or your peers, if you feel comfortable enough sharing.</p>

<p>Anyway, good luck to all you pFrosh out there, and feel free to ask me any questions about Duke or the application process! I hope to see you join us here at Duke next year!</p>

<p>~Jimmy</p>

<p>All great points Jimmy. I simply can’t ever bring myself to respond to a “chance me” post, primarily for the reasons you described. I find it particularly amusing when potential applicants chance other potential applicants! But, I suppose for some students there’s some psychological comfort involved with receiving approval from peers on a web forum. As long as they see it as nothing more than that, let 'em have at it.</p>

<p>^ Really I think all the chancing is just something to take the applicants mind off the real decision that is pending. I hope everyone takes the chances they get very lightly, because they carry no true meaning at all. Were not an admissions committee. </p>

<p>While I do agree that there is a sort of “baseline” level for academics that gets you in the door, I dont think that means that academics are no longer considered at that point. A candidate with a 4.0 and 2300 looks much more impressive than someone with a 3.7 and 2200 at the same school, with the same rigorous course. It shows the first candidate can handle a heavy load better than the second and has more potential to succeed in a tough learning environment. </p>

<p>I am in no way downplaying the importance of essays or recommendations. Those are incredibly important. They give you a chance to show who you are. But in my opinion, ECs are what can set you apart from others. If I were an admin officer, I would rather see what someone did with four years of their life than see what they wrote in 500 words. But maybe thats just me. </p>

<p>Dean Guttentag himself told us a few months ago at the NC/SC open house that these essays are not meant to kill the applicants. He said that while they are perceived as “high-stakes writing,” they are really not. He said not to sweat it if you cant write a brilliant essay (that does NOT mean take it lightly though). They are just trying to get to know you.</p>

<p>Dr James, any suggestions on how to get better recommendations? Besides getting to know your teachers better and choosing the right ones, it seems kind of out of your hands. Im sure all future applicants would appreciate any advice you have on that!</p>

<p>NCBoy1:</p>

<p>I’m not saying that academics are no longer considered beyond the baseline, I’m simply saying that the differences between two applicants above the baseline are far less important than those between one above and one below. 4.0 GPA and 2300 SAT does indeed look a lot better than 3.7 GPA and 2200 SAT, but I’d say that that’s because a 3.7 GPA is below the baseline. If we considered a 4.7/2300 vs. a 4.5/2200, I see little difference, and I think Adcom would feel similarly.</p>

<p>I think Dean Guttentag’s words regarding the essays are definitely true, but it seems to me that his emphasis was on not stressing out over the application in general. He probably mentioned essays specifically because that’s one of the more commonly stressed-over aspects of an college application, but I would argue that his bigger point was to not kill yourself over the application in general.</p>

<p>To answer your point about the ECs, yes they are very important. But the reason I argue that the essays are more important than the ECs is because simply having an association with an organization does not show much. When I look at the “Chance Me” threads on this forum, I often see long lists of many different organizations for each individual. But to me, they aren’t ultimately that different. The reason behind this is because an EC, much like the GPA, is a relatively shallow point on an application. If I were Adcom, I’d focus less on what you did and more on how what you did changed you.</p>

<p>This is where essays step in. Anyone can list a bunch of ECs. But as I, and as I imagine, Adcom, see it, your essays are where you show the impact your ECs have made on your character.</p>

<p>Think of it this way. Let’s say there are two essays sitting side by side. One lists the many different ECs the applicant did, and how he accomplished many different feats in each different organization. In addition, he lists the many awards and honors he has garnered at the national level in each activity. The other focuses on only one EC and provides an anecdote about how the applicant worked day and night on his entry to the regional science fair. Even though he didn’t win, he learned a lot about his work ethic and interest in science, and is nonetheless proud of his entry.</p>

<p>Essay 2 would stand out to me, far more so than essay 1. That’s because the second gave me a sense of the applicant’s character and personality, while the first only listed glorified statistics.</p>

<p>The most important thing in an application is to convey a sense of yourself as an individual. The only venue through which you can do this is the essay, and if you get one, the interview. (Of course, the interview isn’t formally considered in the application process.) That’s why essays are so important. Everything else is either a statistic or what someone else thinks of you. The essay is the only aspect of your application that carries your own voice.</p>

<p>Now the recommendations question. Sorry for the long post, by the way. . . I guess I just have a lot to say.</p>

<p>As you said, getting to know your teachers better and choosing the right ones is one way to do so. But it’s also important for your teachers to get to know you better. A lot of people think that this means staying after class to talk and the like, but it needs not be. My biggest piece of advice regarding teacher recommendations is to be unique in class. Speak up often. Try to develop a more personal relationship with your teachers. A good way to do this is to maybe try and inject a bit of humor into class discussions; I did my best to do that. You want your teachers to see the real you, and let’s face it, most people aren’t only stiff, rigid, academic machines.</p>

<p>Another thing that you can try to do is to ask your teachers to cater their recommendations towards a certain facet of yourself. For instance, if you want to make sure the recommendation conveys your admirable work ethic, or your constant optimism and bright attitude, or your willingness to put in extra effort towards success, ask your teachers to focus on it a bit! That way, you know what’s going into your recommendation.</p>

<p>One thing to NEVER do is to ask to see a recommendation. Some teachers will offer to let you see. . . one of mine did. But never ask to see a recommendation. This will make the teacher think that you don’t trust them to write about you well, which is not a feeling you want the teacher to foster while recommending you.</p>

<p>Hope I helped, and again, sorry for the incredibly long post!</p>

<p>~Jimmy</p>

<p>Thanks for this whole thread Jimmy, Im sure it will help many future applicants. Wish it was up a few months ago before I applied!</p>

<p>I think we had a bit of a miscommunication on the GPA - I was talking UW while I believe you were talking about weighted. Anyway, we were both assuming a .2 or .3 difference, so it doesnt really matter.</p>

<p>Also, on the EC front, I think I came off wrong. Adcoms couldnt care less about a laundry list of club presidencies and random service activities. What I meant was developing a certain, unique activity (or a few activities) that you are interested in, not just trying to build the biggest resume you can. It’s those unique passions that make many people stand out, and can serve as a real bonus to your application. </p>

<p>All in all, this is great advice. Guys, if you have yet to apply to college take a minute to read this thread!!</p>

<p>No problem! Yeah, the GPA miscommunication is apparent now that you mention it. . . oh well.</p>

<p>Anyway, for the ECs, you’re absolutely right that Adcom doesn’t want a laundry list, but rather some unique, well-developed passions. That’s exactly why the essays are so valuable. . . they supplement your EC list.</p>

<p>See, no matter how genuine your ECs are in terms of carrying out your passions, they will always look like a laundry list on a resume. That’s because your resume doesn’t offer much insight into the substance of each entry.</p>

<p>With the essays, however, you can really dive into how an EC answered a passion of yours. That’s why I think the essay is more important. Without it, your lifelong passion realized through one EC will look like nothing but a label.</p>

<p>~Jimmy</p>

<p>This thread is making me think more and more about how much better I could have made my app…I wish you had posted this a few months ago!! Haha oh well, nothing I can do about it now. </p>

<p>I completely agree with you on the fact that the essay compliments the ECs. Now that I think about it (and I literally just got on my Common App and read my Activities section), my ECs all sound laundry list in a way. I think they are pretty darn unique, but your right. With that limited space its hard to make them sound like they actually are. Given I had that short answer question to elaborate on one, but still, 150 words is nothing. </p>

<p>I didnt elaborate on any of my ECs with my main Common App essay, as I was trying to not be repetitive, but maybe I should have at least touched based on a few. I instead wrote about my cousin (who struggles from Aspergers) and how he has changed me.</p>

<p>I still think that the essay can provide a nice boost if well written, but for the most part will not be the reason you are rejected (Im assuming that it is in coherent english and does not sound like a 3rd grader wrote it, because then it might kill you). It is an excellent way to gain an edge, or an excellent way to make up for a lacking part of your application, but I still think that the bulk of your decision will rest on the other parts. But, thats just my opinion (how I would judge an app if I worked in admissions), and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree :wink: . That is, unless you are secretly an admissions officer, in which case I will shut up and admit I know nothing :)</p>

<p>The essay does not have to be about the ECs. Granted, if your ECs mean a lot to you and you can write a good essay by elaborating on one or two then by all means, do that. But in a broader sense, the essay is meant to let you showcase an aspect of yourself that you think is important. Whether it’s an event that has defined your development, a part of your personality that plays a large part in shaping who you are, or an EC that embodies your ideals and passions a personal statement is just that, a statement of who you are as a person and what you think is important to tell someone trying to get to know you as a whole. So don’t feel pressured to try to retouch your EC list or somehow incorporate them by force into the essay. There are other ways to show that your ECs are more than a laundry list such as achievements or awards attained while doing those things, time commitment, duration of involvement, or even a supplemental recommendation from a supervisor/faculty adviser. </p>

<p>In any case, however one does it, the personal statement needs to convey depth of character that may be hard to express elsewhere on the application.</p>

<p>NCBoy1:</p>

<p>Haha don’t worry, I’m not an admissions officer lol. But yeah I agree with you that an essay won’t get you rejected. I see it more as a reason for acceptance than denial. As in, it won’t ever hurt you (unless it’s straight-up insulting), but it can give you the edge for Adcom to say yes.</p>

<p>And don’t worry about not elaborating on your ECs. . . your essays don’t have to do that. They are intended to give a sense of you as an individual. If explaining EC involvement is the best way to do that, then so be it, but there are other essay topics that would do as well a job, or better, than ECs.</p>

<p>SBR:</p>

<p>I didn’t say the essays had to be about ECs, I simply said that if one wants to focus on ECs in one’s application, the essay should be used to show the impact of ECs on that person’s character. This is because any list of ECs will inherently seem laundry-listish. Looking over “Chance Me” threads, I don’t get any sense of each individual based on their stats (including EC list). That’s why it’s important to make your essays count.</p>

<p>~Jimmy</p>

<p>

I’d advise you not to throw out hard numbers with regards to GPA. I know someone with a 3.7 GPA who is the current Valedictorian of his high school. GPAs are taken in the context of an applicant’s high school. Otherwise, good advice.</p>

<p>

Should read 3.7 **UW **GPA</p>

<p>Thank you for that good advice JamesDaAZN! :slight_smile:
I have a question about Teacher Recommedations here- <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/duke-university/1036489-robertson-scholars-program-submit-commonapp-dec-1-too.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/duke-university/1036489-robertson-scholars-program-submit-commonapp-dec-1-too.html&lt;/a&gt;
It would be great if you could provide some insight into the Teacher Recommendations question as the deadline’s looming up!</p>

<p>Harambee:
Oh, I was talking about weighted GPA. 3.7 UW isn’t bad. . . my UW was just a bit over that and I was Salutatorian (2/500). But you’re right, it’s in the context of the high school and the courses offered there.</p>