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[quote]
Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:</p>
<p>First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."
<p>Why get rid of just college? It use to be that 6th grade was the end. Why not roll it back to the good ole’ days?</p>
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<p>In our economy it is what is between your ears that counts. A sheepskin demonstrates a certain level of competency, and hopefully a minimum level of basic skills (the 3 R’s).</p>
<p>I think there’s a lot to this. I’ve had several German au pairs over the years who have tried to explain their education system to me, and while I don’t pretend to understand it (it seems more complicated than ours), there is a lot more differentiation. As one who was used to the American system, I thought it was odd and initially thought it was inferior. As I understand their system, there is much more differentiation in where you go to “high school” based on your ultimate goals, more post-secondary vocational training, a different number of years at univrsity depending on what you’re majoring in, etc. Now I think they might have it right.</p>
<p>mdoc: The problem with that level of differentiation is that there’s not room for people to switch tracks.</p>
<p>My old school system had a bunch of specialized vocational programs available to students, but everyone still had to complete a college prep curriculum, even if they were in one of the vocational programs. I rather like that system - it recognizes that people have different goals, but also doesn’t just close doors on you.</p>
<p>The article itself…it has some points, but I’m a bit suspicious of and cynical about people saying “Oh, well, college should not be for [some chunk of the population].” This chunk of the population rarely seems to include themselves, their children, or their employees. I’d be curious as to whether the author would hire a research assistant who didn’t have a degree and wasn’t pursuing one.</p>
<p>One person who took four years off between high school and college told me, “College is wasted on the young.” In some instances, I would agree with her; some HS grads aren’t ready to take full advantage of the college environment while others are. Another person took ten years to go through the Canadian higher ed system by alternately working in foreign countries for a year and then using that money to pay for a semester/year of college. She had such a broad range of experiences by the time she graduated and got a lot out of college as a result.</p>
<p>Personally, I was much more motivated during grad school having worked for three years exploring various careers. Once I identified what I wanted to do, I really focused on learning as much as possible about the field.</p>
<p>When I first read this…I thought the post was such an obviously ridiculous statement that I wouldn’t waste my time responding. I’ve reconsidered.</p>
<p>Education is not a measureable commodity that is sought soley for an “economic reward”. A “degree” is not the only goal. Human beings without degrees are not “stigmatized.”</p>
<p>There is an enrichment and value to higher learning, heck any learning, that simply defies those trying to devalue it. Life is a journey and if a breadth of knowledge and information is not your choice, it’s not your choice. If you’re a little young or immature to properly value an educational opportunity…you will be one day. It’s how wisdom is aquired.
But … if you don’t know…then you just don’t know.</p>
<p>It just bothers me when folks disrespect and devalue noble things.</p>
<p>I have a few acquaintances that think college is a waste because it’s “conforming” people, like another heated topic that shall not be named, as drones and plagued by professors who are out of touch with reality, thus forcing their bias on the so called “sheep.” Yea, deep stuff - they have a youtube account, rants and all.</p>
<p>Oh please, if you’re going to get rid of anything, get rid of eighth grade. Who would miss it? The kids are gaucky, and in between being youngsters and teens. They are all going through growth spurts, and are awkward. There is a lot of social drama. Eighth grade is the pits. Just skip from seventh to nineth.</p>
<p>Lol, thumper, you’ve got my vote! It does seem there are an awful lot of kids going into heavy and inescapable debt for some pretty questionable degrees (No offense, but what do all these communications majors end up doing?) I know, knowledge is never a bad thing, but I know too many kids (and parents) who spent alot of time and money to become bartenders, casino workers, etc. </p>
<p>Don’t think the European system would fly in the land of the free and undecided. But I would love to see more kids have access to shadowing and meaningful career exploration at the high school level. I admire people who actually know how to do things, think CC is a great thing for kids who have no clue what they might want to do when they grow up, and agree that learning is really a lifetime experience (looking forward to taking courses at my alma mater, tuition free for 55+, in a few more years…who says it’s no fun to get old?). I think a voluntary one-year service thing, on the order of the Obama proposal, would be a great thing and probably boost 4-year grad rates. Just my .02!</p>
<p>This article is a waste of time. I think the Wall Street Journal is the best newspaper in the country, but its editorials and op-ed pages are written by troglodytes. This op-ed piece is a good example, written for an era when people trained for a trade and stayed in it. Unfortunately, that time is far behind us. The people who will prosper in a hyper-competitive, global economy are those with education who can adapt to changes in markets, technologies, and political climates. Adaptability comes from learning different ways of thinking that one can apply to different kinds of situations. People who learn a trade by apprenticing will not be among those who prosper. But, as jessiehl implies, that may be OK for Murray as long as he, his friends and family remain firmly in the upper class.</p>
<p>[It appears incidentally that this is an article from August 2008. Why is this appearing now?]</p>
<p>I have always believed in a farm style middle school. Lots of projects, putting up fences, slopping the hogs, collecting the eggs, planting and canning and tying it all in to a little bit of academics including reading.</p>
<p>That said, I don’t agree with the european style of education. I have seen it up close and it is very rigid compared to the U.S. style that allows for growth and change and livelong learning. Interesting, the U.S. style is being adopted in places like Scotland…</p>
<p>The key is knowing that we as humans will be learning and changing for our entire existence or should be. The system should be set up to accommodate all ages of learners.</p>
<p>thumper, it’s seventh grade you couldn’t pay me to repeat, 8th grade was all right. I loathe the current middle school context - they kids don’t learn anything.</p>
<p>There were plusses and minuses to the German system. We had two 16 year old apprentice draftsmen (girl and boy) in our office. For one it was the inspiration to get back on the university track, so he could be boss. For the other, it seemed to just be as good a job as any. OTOH I had a friend who had gotten stuck being a bank teller who hated it. She had a talent and interest in languages. She tried to get her Abitur (high school diploma more or less) via night school, but found it too hard to do while working full time. And of course once you are at the university you are much more specialized than you are here.</p>
<p>I agree that the german system has its ups and downs. I’ve heard of people who decided too late that they wanted to go to university and basically got stuck.</p>
<p>So basically, the author is of the opinion that life is about training yourself for work, being productive, then dying… simply fantastic. In that case, yes, college is a waste of time.</p>
<p>Do we really want engineers who have no solid knowledge in math and science?
Do we want to be cut open by a surgeon who had not gone thru many many years of hard academics and training?</p>
<p>In regard to Grade school, most other countries do not waste first 8 years like american system does, they actually teach staff in 1 - 8 grades, while US schools concentrate the most of education in the last 4 years 9 - 12 grades - too little, too late. In some countries there are only 10 years of grade school, not 13, and they know much more after graduating. The importance in not how many years kids spend in school, but what and how they are taught. Busy work filling work sheets is not a real education. And most are not prepared for some challenging carriers, they would not even try to pursue. Everybody should be able to pursue any field of study after graduating from HS.</p>
<p>I understand, in theory, what but disagree that formal education leads to adaptability. It often leads to additional formal education to change careers when the first becomes outdated or unlikely to lead to continued employment! There are many people in the trades who continue to learn and prosper - electricians learn new technologies every day (wiring for solar panels for example) as do plumbers and mechanics. The application of their knowledge on a daily basis often forces them to stay on “the cutting edge”. Since these are essential services, it’s very unlikely they’re going to become obsolete in the global economy!</p>
<p>You need to learn from both, formal education and constant learning of new (or new to you) staff at work. It is a must, and everything is changing very fast. You are out if you do not learn, even after 30 years of experience.</p>