<p>DS is just starting his sophomore year at a Research U as a physics/math double major. He did physics research during the summer which is publication worthy but ran out of time during the summer to actually write the paper. It was just him working under a grad student under a very prominent professor, and DS did the actual work that will be written up. It is not earth shattering material, just some necessary supportive type of research. </p>
<p>DS now finds he has no time to work on writing the paper. He is taking 17 credits of upper level math and physics classes (including Honors Real Analysis) and on a varsity sports team. The grad student has now stated that he will write the paper as I expect he will be finishing up this year and is anxious to get his CV ready for the job market. DS was never expected to write the entire paper as I believe the grad student was going to write all the supporting sections. </p>
<p>DS does plan to pursue grad school in Physics but in a different field than the research is in. I have suggested that he drop one of his math classes (he's taking 3) and do a research course which would give him the time to finish this up, but he likes his classes and doesn't want to do this. </p>
<p>So should we encourage DS to find the few hours here and there to write his portion of the paper, or just let the grad student do all the writing? Will that determine who is the first and second author? Would that matter for an undergrad, early in his career?</p>
<p>In my experience in the chemistry field, the answer is: it depends. Different departments - and different professors in those same departments - have different protocols for determining who writes the paper and who is “first author.”</p>
<p>When I was in grad school - my advisor wrote the bulk of the paper, we students wrote up the experimental section and contributed to the results and discussion. First author was always my prof (hey, he was going for tenure at the time.) However, in that same department, some profs had their students write more of the paper and they COULD be first author, but only if they actually wrote the majority of the paper.</p>
<p>When I worked in industry, the person who wrote the article was ALWAYS the first author. Didn’t matter who physcially did most of the work - he who writes the paper gets the authorship. It always seemed fair to me, because scientific writing can be a brutish process: lots of writing, lots of editing, lots of frustration. The editorial process itself - once the paper is submitted and accepted for publication - is the very definition of tedious.</p>
<p>Of course, grad schools do look favorably on publications. It’s your son’s schedule and his priorities, but I would advise him to engage as much as he can with the process. It may not be “worth” it to be the first author, but it’s at least worth serious consideration.</p>
<p>It’s likely that the grad student would be first author either way. I would encourage S to bang out whatever he can regarding his work, even if it is just sketched out. Also, he should ask to read through the paper before submission to make sure it accurately represents his results. If there is no way he can do this, I would NOT encourage dropping any of his current courses. It’s just not that important.</p>
<p>Conventions differ depending on the discipline, but in the life sciences the authorship order would be: Grad student, summer worker, principal investigator. In some cases, the undergraduate student would simply be acknowledged at the end of the paper as “fine technical assistance of ___ is gratefully acknowledged”. Although your son no doubt worked many hours on his project, the grad student probably spent quite some time training him how to use equipment, answering questions and specifying the needed experiments. It would be very unusual to expect an undergraduate working on a summer project to take the lead in writing up the work. Perhaps he would submit write-ups for the materials and methods and results, but the final draft would be the product of the first author. He will have many more opportunities for first authorship of papers, so being second author on this summer project will not affect him in the future. However as his career progresses, it is VERY beneficial to clarify authorship issues prior to initiating a collaboration or project. Unfortunately, unreasonable people can be found in every profession.</p>
<p>Oh, and I agree with Planestate - no one really expects a summer student to even BE first author on a manuscript, unless the intended journal is lower-tier.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info. That’s helpful. My experience in paper writing and authorship was post-UG so didn’t know how things worked as an UG. </p>
<p>This project was basically analyzing reams of data from an outside agency and DS wrote the program to do this and then ran the analysis. In fact, he has to show the grad student how the program works before the grad student can write it up.</p>
<p>@scout: I don’t think it’s destined for any hot journals :-)</p>
<p>Sounds like the thing for him to do is to try and stay engaged in the paper writing process, even if he doesn’t write any himself, as that will be an education in and of itself. However, I won’t suggest he do anything drastic to make extra time.</p>
<p>My experience is roughly 25 years old and is in mechanical engineering, although with an advisor who is a metallurgist. He and I had this discussion once. His opinion was that the lead author is the person who is the “intellectual owner” of the majority of the contents. The last author is the owner of process that made the work possible–the professor who wrote the proposal to obtain the funding to establish the lab, pay the students, etc. Thus, the first and last positions on a paper are the positions of prestige. Other authors are added with placement according to proportion of intellectual ownership.</p>
<p>Unless the focus of the paper is a novel method for data analysis (which was your S’s focus, if I’m reading this correctly), the graduate student probably has priority. I he were my kid, I’d advise him to cooperate with the grad student to the extent possible, and smile if he gets second author. He should keep his eyes open and look for opportunities to be lead author in the future. I worked in two labs where it was not unusual for undergrads to have such opportunities. Having publications when applying to grad schools is a definite plus.</p>
<p>Same in my field as well. Our norms are typically first author has played the biggest role, often conceiving of the idea and not infrequently (though not always) writing the first draft. There is no special prestige for last author. For us there is a LOT more to do in terms of writing after the first draft. Who is the first author varies considerably by individual and project and dynamics of the group. </p>
<p>I’m guessing your student isn’t going to be first author anyways and likely isn’t in a position to do a great first draft if he’s not written a paper before. It would actually be less work overall for the team for the grad student to do the first draft but given your student has already done a ton of work on the project, and can be involved in subsequent drafts and revisions that come in the review process, he is an author regardless. I also doubt whether he’s first or second will make any difference at all to his application (his letters will be more valuable in explaining the role he has played on the work he has done in the lab).</p>
<p>SteveC: I like those definitions. I think we would all be pleased if he was named as an author at all. DS has no clue about any of this, hence my ‘suggestions.’</p>
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<p>This hadn’t occurred to me but I can see that that could definitely be true. Maybe they’re happy that DS doesn’t have time to ‘write’ his part :D.</p>
<p>As someone who has mentored more than 20 undergraduate researchers to date, albeit in a field other than math or physics, more senior scientists (grad students, post-docs, research associates, professors) almost always do the final writing on papers for publication. </p>
<p>I have published with many, many undergraduate authors, and although I expect the students to write up their work, I have yet to have a student write something that is publication ready. Some of these undergrads were very, very good and wound up in tippy-top graduate programs with prestigious fellowships. But as undergraduates they were, well, undergraduates.</p>
<p>Learning the jargon and the rhythm of professional writing is part of the learning process, and a sophomore in college usually isn’t “there” yet in terms of being at the “big kids” professional level. Actually, most first and second year graduate students probably aren’t there yet either. That is why graduate students have to write proposals and have qualifying exams and so forth.</p>
<p>If your undergraduate is enjoying his classes, let him be an undergraduate. A graduate program will appreciate the fact that he had a research experience and that he was able to make enough of a contribution to be an author. There is plenty of time to learn what is expected at the professional level.</p>
<p>Medical/biological sciences here: authorship is basically as described by SteveC. The two ends are the most important, and as you work toward the middle, less important. First&second author, most intellectual input(& sometimes work); faculty members tend toward the last (“most senior”) position. I’ve actually seen people fight over the last author position.</p>
<p>For your son, I would expect him to write up, at most, the methods (i.e., a description of the program he wrote) and a draft of the results. Leave it to the grad student & prof to write up the rest.</p>
<p>In my grad school department (biomedical field) the first authorship went to the one who did the bulk of the research AND wrote the bulk of the paper. If those two tasks were somehow done by different people (which almost never happened), the one who wrote the paper trumped the other person.</p>
<p>I think it would be a nice boost for his grad school prospects if he could earn a first authorship, but not at the expense of keeping his grades up. Also, if he is thinking seriously about sacrificing and doing the write up, I’d talk to the professor first and make sure that it will result in a first authorship - that it won’t automatically go to the grad student per some lab policy.</p>
<p>^Is the analysis your son did the majority of what the paper is about or just a portion? It is extremely unusual for an undergrad to get first authorship, although it does sometimes happen.</p>
<p>While writing up research is good experience, I wouldn’t jeopardize classwork to do this–especially in a theoretical field. Just be sure that the prof knows that your son performed the analysis independently. Writing an entire paper is a significant time sink; maybe he could just write the methods section and/or the results. That won’t merit first authorship, but it would be good experience and it requires a lot less time than writing the background and/or discussion section. </p>
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<p>I assume what you are getting at is that since the prof’s rec carries a lot of weight, is it worth investing more in the research experience…Sort of, but in the long run he’s better off investing in his classes, especially in a theoretical field and especially early in the undergraduate years.</p>
<p>^^ What little I understand of it, I think his work is the majority of the paper.</p>
<p>I think the original plan was that he write the methods/results and the grad student writes the background, conclusions. I think I will make him sit down and do those portions over Xmas vacation. I don’t think it will take too long once he buckles down. </p>
<p>Fortunately, sounds like grad student is involved in other things at the moment and not chomping at the bit to get this done. And the Prof, well… I expect he is otherwise occupied between now and December.</p>