For those looking at elite schools: why do public universities have such a bad rep?

Parents Forum
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<p>We had an NHS meeting today and we were talking about where we're applying. A couple of the top ranked kids in my class laughed at the thought of going to U of Michigan, which is where I'm applying. I asked them what's wrong with it and they basically said, "Umm...it's a public school." As if public schools, even great ones like Mich, Uva, UNC are gross.</p>

<p>Where does this stigma come from, is it unfounded? It is because they're so large? I understand the Ivies, MIT, Chicago and the super-selective LAS deserve their respect. But outside of that I'm unsure how say a school like Vanderbilt is much better than Michigan? </p>

<p>Even in the movie the Internship this past summer, there was a scene where the smartest kid dismissed another when he said, "I went to college at the University of..."</p>

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<p>There is no stigma and your classmates are morons.</p>

<p>Next?</p>

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<p>People are very brand conscious, and they often discount their own state flagship U. Many years ago, a boy on my daughter’s school bus was bragging that he’d go to Penn (University of Pennsylvania), not Penn State. I remember this because my daughter was in third grade and asked why he thought Penn was better. Flash forward - he goes to Penn State honors college, and his Mom couldn’t be happier.</p>

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<p>Do you live in the northeast? If so, that may explain it – the northeast has a high density of well respected private schools, but the public schools tend not to show up as much on “top N” lists (even though they may be perfectly good schools for many students). New Jersey students seem to be particularly prone to wanting to go “anywhere but Rutgers”.</p>

<p>The comments would be more odd if you live in Michigan.</p>

<p>Note, however, that if you do not live in Michigan, the University of Michigan will be expensive for you.</p>

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<p>^^If he would have gone to Penn most of the country would assume he went to Penn State! I think kids in general don’t understand that what’s important is actually obtaining the degree…not so much where they land at 18 or 19. Most kids by the Christmas after their June high school graduations don’t give a rip anymore.</p>

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<p>Consolation is exactly right. The opinions of a handful of kids in the northeast do not a trend make.</p>

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<p>Go Blue, alopez14! U-Mich is an amazing school. DH and I met/graduated from there (long ago). It was a magical place. I went on to Harvard Business School a few years later and DS is now attending a New England prep school where many of his uninformed classmates are as short-sighted as your friends. We’d be THRILLED if he were accepted to U-M.</p>

<p>Consolation’s post bears repeating: Your classmates are morons.</p>

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<p>This does not necessarily apply to all students…including top students living in the NE. Especially those attending high schools which emphasize engineering/STEM or with a critical mass of parents involved/knowledgeable about US academia.</p>

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<p>Oh please, people in the NE know that UMICH is an excellent school. The public school in my town sends several every year. My cousin’s son, who went to a very elite prep school, chose UMich over WashU.</p>

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<p>Your classmates seem to be repeating something they heard once rather than forming their judgement from knowledge & experience.
Hence the observation that they are morons, is quite accurate.</p>

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<p>I agree with Consolation, but think it’s worth digging a little deeper.</p>

<p>Public universities see their mission as educating a much broader range of students than the “prestige” privates. There’s no question whatsoever that the academic resources of the top public universities-- like Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA, Carolina, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington – are as good or maybe even better than those at the top privates. But the privates accept a much smaller number of students, and a much more homogeneous group of students in terms of their academic qualifications. </p>

<p>Three things follow from that:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Students with high academic qualifications believe that other students at the privates will be their peers, and they are not so sure about the publics. They are afraid their classes will be taught to a lowest common denominator far below their abilities.</p></li>
<li><p>Students believe that the mere fact of their enrollment at a top private will communicate to employers and graduate schools that they are academically elite, while enrolling at even the best public does not convey that information efficiently. They are right about that, and wrong that it makes a big difference to anything.</p></li>
<li><p>Students believe, probably correctly, that there is more competition for faculty attention and access to facilities at publics. They will have to work harder to stand out and to get recommendations, etc.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>The fact is, however, that the top 500-1,000 students of the class at Michigan aren’t a heck of a lot different from the class at Harvard, much less Vanderbilt. And those students’ opportunities aren’t really affected by the fact that the bottom 1,000 students in a class at Michigan are easily distinguishable from the Cantabrigians. A student who would be successful at Harvard is going to have equivalent success at Michigan, provided he takes advantage of the opportunities Michigan provides.</p>

<p>A couple other things come into play. Snotty high school students seem not to want to go to the same college as classmates they don’t respect. So if they see a bunch of classmates headed to their public flagship, they feel diminished by association if they have to go to the same college. That’s sort of disgusting, but it’s a real feeling that gets expressed all the time.</p>

<p>Also, the current funding crisis throughout government at every level means that public universities are constantly crying poor and cutting back amenities, while the top privates are more or less rolling in dough. The publics are managing to convince lots of prospective students that their educational environment will be impoverished. That’s not really true, but there’s no question the better financial condition of the top privates makes a lot of things easier there.</p>

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<p>Those kids are idiots. UMich was and has been one of the best colleges in this country. Rankings often factor in endowments. UMich doesn’t have the deep pockets as others.</p>

<p>(disclaimer: UMich was #2 on my list of schools that accepted me – over some Ivies)</p>

<p>(disclaimer 2 & 3: I worked at UMich later, my kid will be applying there next year from a UMich feeder school – she’s likely to be admitted, IMHO)</p>

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<p>@alopez14: Tell your classmates that Exeter (class of 2013) just sent seven kids to U-M, same number they sent to Princeton. Are your classmates that caliber? They might be better served doing some research before making judgments about you and your fine choice.</p>

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<p>This is exactly it, I think. I had a quite a few of classmates in high school that chose to go to out of state public schools because they didn’t want to go to the same college that their high school classmates were going to. In most cases, these out of state schools were ranked as high, or even lower than our state flagship, and were definitely not as prestigious. So I don’t think this sentiment has much to do with prestige, at least amongst people from my high school.</p>

<p>I’m not sure if I’d call this behavior disgusting though. Most of the people I knew that went to these out of state public schools weren’t so popular in high school. I don’t know for sure, but I think their feeling was that they’d have a fresh start if they went to a college where they didn’t know anyone, or something like that. Of course it’s certainly possible to go to your state flagship and not interact with anyone from your high school.</p>

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<p>ChoatieMom, I personally know Exeter kids who went/go to UofM and OP if you attend UofM or are applying and get accepted it’s quite an honor. Lots and lots of high caliber qualified kids get turned down.</p>

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<p>The public flagships of the Northeast and other parts of the country are not as elite as some of those in the Midwest. It’s a different mindset. Just ignore those kids- they won’t be in your life next year. Wisconsin students tend to think of UW as the go to school for the best students, I expect Michigan students generally have a similar mindset for Michigan (and students from each state ignore the other- that lake is a huge barrier). Some of the smartest families in states with elite public colleges don’t feel the need to ignore excellent Honors opportunities to only apply to HYPSM(IT). Let them settle for some private school that may not have as good a department in your proposed majors.</p>

<p>Four years from now they may be hoping to get into one of those public U’s for grad school.</p>

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<p>The OP is a Michigan resident, and as such, there is little reason for him to need to go out of state to get an excellent education. My suspicion is that the kids dismissing his desire to go to UMich are doing so because (1) it is just BSU and “everybody” goes there and (2) they don’t need the great tuition break that UMich will give him.</p>

<p>OTOH, there are few students who have the advantage that the OP has, i.e. living in a state with a “great” flagship state university. Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina, California, and Wisconsin are the only BSUs that I would consider to be worth attending from OOS. The OOS cost for most publics is close enough that you are paying about 80% of what the cost would be to attend a private university or LAC. But if you are in-state with the availability to attend one of these great schools, that is a great deal.</p>

<p>I love the way CCers jumped all over the OP’s question based on the assumption that he and the other students must be from the Northeast to continue the stereotype of snobbish stupidity that they are so fond of.</p>

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<p>Actually, the in-state and out-of-state list prices for state universities vary greatly. For example, the out-of-state list price for Minnesota may be lower than the in-state list price for some other state universities. Someone looking for a small school with engineering will find South Dakota School of Mines and Technology even cheaper. Of course, students looking for need-based financial aid may find that it is not abundant at out-of-state state universities other than Virginia and North Carolina.</p>

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<p>A big exception here is the University of Michigan which isn’t “crying poor” or cutting back. The state of Michigan underwent a huge financial crisis 30-40 years ago and slashed funding for the University of Michigan then, not recently. The university needed to find its own way financially, and it did. Legislative appropriations now make up about 4% of its budget, probably the lowest for any public university in the country (though UVA is close). In financial terms it is virtually a private institution at this point, but it remains public in the sense that it’s governed by a Board of Regents directly elected by the people of the state of Michigan, and it continues to give deep tuition discounts to state residents, even though its annual legislative appropriations cover only a small fraction of the value of those discounts. Michigan may be hurt somewhat, however, by a public perception that erroneously places all public universities in the same boat financially.</p>

<p>Evidence that Michigan isn’t cutting back: it has announced a goal of meeting full financial need for all students, including OOS students. It currently meets full need for in-state students, something few public universities do. At this point UVA and UNC Chapel Hill are the only public universities that meet full need for OOS students, but they enroll far fewer OOS students than Michigan, and Virginia is retreating on that commitment because it found it too expensive. Michigan and UVA are moving in opposite directions on that score.</p>

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<p>Depends how you measure. Michigan actually has the 6th or 7th largest endowment of any college or university, public or private, in the world. This was a key part of its finding its way toward financial independence from the state. But it’s true that on a per-student basis, its endowment is still smaller than many elite privates. Michigan’s endowment has been growing at a faster rate than any other, however, so it is gradually closing that gap, and it has a big capital campaign on the horizon that should propel its endowment even higher. Raising enough capital to meet full need for all undergraduates is a central goal of that capital campaign.</p>

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<p>This++</p>

<p>Esp. the Northeast… Even in the South there are the flagships and big time schools and they are generally well respected (Alabama, Georgia, UT, TAMU, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, and the like). But there’s something mysterious about the NE, where the concentration of good private schools seems to have warped people’s preferences.</p>

<p>Here in the Midwest it’s not like we all wake up every day dreaming our kids will all end up at Northwestern or Chicago or WUSTL… Some do, but the majority end up in the great flagship state schools (IS or OOS) and are in good shape.</p>