For those looking at elite schools: why do public universities have such a bad rep?

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@BossyMommy

If your search criteria include small class sizes, no D1 sports, no Greek system, no classes taught by grad students? You are SOL at just about every public university I can think of. In fact, I think St. Mary’s in MD is the only public small college that would qualify, and for OOS applicants, it doesn’t make any more financial sense to go there than it would to attend a private school.

</p>

<p>More candidates: [COPLAC</a> | Council of Public Liberal Arts Colleges](<a href=“http://www.coplac.org/members/]COPLAC”>Member Institutions)</p>

<p>Of course, there are also “directional” or “regional” public universities without PhD students that may also qualify, even though they may be large and not normally thought of as LAC-like.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@tptshorty

At orientation, HR told them their top salesperson was a grad from Chico State (which probably hads no D1 sports or Greek life).

</p>

<p>CSU Chico does have fraternities and sororities, but only 1% of undergraduates join them. The fraternities and sororities are not allowed to serve alcohol at their events on campus or in their houses, though they may have off campus events where alcohol may be served by a licensed, insured, third party vendor, with various restrictions: <a href=“Fraternity and Sorority Affairs – Chico State”>Fraternity and Sorority Affairs – Chico State;

<p>CSU Chico sports are in NCAA Division II.</p>

[anon94785555]

<p>Class size alone should not be considered for a college. It doesn’t matter if a lecture is 20, 200 or more students hearing a given professor talk. Look at the discussion groups, where the interactions take place. A top grad student who is close to his/her own undergrad experience interacting. Places like UW-Madison (with a 15th or so math grad school ranking) may have a large lecture plus small discussion groups and a math lab open to students 5 evenings per week.</p>

<p>Also notice the regional numbers at the elite schools- in the Northeast with such small states being “OOS” means far less than elsewhere in the country. </p>

<p>I suspect HS kids dream about going elsewhere. A wish to go where everyone else in their peer group doesn’t. If not Michigan then private (kids tend to not think of equally good public schools, little knowledge outside one’s own area).</p>

<p>It is a lot harder for parents with good students in the Northeast to college shop. So many competing small schools that can only take a small percentage of the top students. Most of the east coast colleges excluding HYP mentioned on CC are not on the radar of people who live elsewhere. Many are actually regional colleges by student population but because they have such a large student base from which to cherry pick they get vaulted into higher ratings.</p>

[sorghum]

<p>

@alopez14: Tell your classmates that Exeter (class of 2013) just sent seven kids to U-M, same number they sent to Princeton. Are your classmates that caliber? They might be better served doing some research before making judgments about you and your fine choice.

</p>

<p>I don’t get the logic. Are all Exeter kids brilliant, of some elite caliber? Maybe seven of the top Exeter kids went to Princeton and the bottom seven went to Michigan.</p>

[Magnetron]

<p>When I lived in the NE, there is a very real gap between Cornell/Binghamton and Columbia/Stony Brook. It was the perceived academic gap between Syracuse and Binghamton we found puzzling, especially when the data indicate the opposite.</p>

<p>Here in WA, for a 4.0/2400 kid from a public HS, UW would be seen as a great option.</p>

<p>

I just got some devastating news. My kid only scored in the bottom half of the top 1%. There goes his shot at Dartmouth. It’s UNH for him.

</p>

<p>I feel your pain. D got a 33ACT and Humboldt is one of her top choices.</p>

[sally305]

<p>

It is a lot harder for parents with good students in the Northeast to college shop. So many competing small schools that can only take a small percentage of the top students. Most of the east coast colleges excluding HYP mentioned on CC are not on the radar of people who live elsewhere. Many are actually regional colleges by student population but because they have such a large student base from which to cherry pick they get vaulted into higher ratings.

</p>

<p>This is SO true. It never ceases to amaze me how much love some of the LACs in PA, NY, MA, etc. get compared with their counterparts (which are in many cases better schools overall) in the South or Midwest.</p>

[higgins2013]

<p>Those Midwest “flagship schools” are having financial problems due to reduced state spending subsidies, including Michigan. More recruitment of full-pay foreign students occurring - look at UIUC’s enrollment stats for this Fall’s freshman class - coupled with extremely large lecture hall classes, TA-taught classes, delayed graduations due to inability to access classes, difficulty in attaining enrollment in desired majors, and often rundown facilities, and it’s no surprise that top students are motivated to go to top private colleges instead.</p>

[sally305]

<p>I agree that flagships in the Midwest are getting less and less of their funding from the state and also that they are attracting more and more international students. And yes, there are big freshman lecture classes (but there are at large private universities too, even the prestigious ones…). But I disagree with some of your other points. A number of state flagships have instituted “four-year promise” arrangements for students who want or need to graduate on time, as well as support for completing major requirements in four years. And judging by the constant construction going on at several of the campuses I have visited lately (Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin) there is major investment in facilities. I am not sure exactly what schools you are referring to.</p>

[Kennedy2010]

<p>Well the state of Illinois is in big trouble financially. UIUC may not be the best college to use in comparison to other public colleges. D would have paid more to attend UIUC than any of the private schools she was accepted to.</p>

[Consolation]

<p>

I don’t think a kid who evaluates the academic offerings and environment of his or her own state U and decides that a private U MIGHT be closer to what he or she is looking for is an ignoramus or a moron.

</p>

<p>Neither do I. But I do think that a kid who sneers at the University of Michigan because “it’s public” is, at the very least, pathetically misinformed.</p>

<p>

I live in the Northeast. There are dozens of private U’s that I would not have paid for my own kids to attend, given that there are cheaper public options in the region with stronger academics and better reputations.

</p>

<p>Me too. Even though my state U is fairly unimpressive, if the choice came down to paying $20K to go there vs paying $35-50K to go to many lackluster private schools, S would have been in the honors college in Orono.</p>

<p>But this is a judgement based on the individual characteristics of the individual schools, not a proclamation of blanket stigma</p>

<p>

Why is it that the crowd here that just loves Colleges that Change Lives (because a special snowflake deserves the rarified environment of an LAC to meet his or her need for seminars, small class sizes, etc.) loves to bash the kid from New Hampshire who might not be gung-ho about UNH? What is it with folks and your “I’m only an elitist when it serves my own purposes”.

</p>

<p>Very true.</p>

<p>Personally, I freely admit that I am an elitist and that I think prestige (among people who really know what’s what) DOES matter. I completely sympathize with a smart kid who does not want to go to college with the people who could barely cut it in his/her HS. I even sympathize with the kid who just wants to get out of Dodge. But I have no sympathy for a kid who thinks that some fourth rate private school is “better” than U Mich or UVA because “they’re public.” </p>

<p>And BTW, I have yet to encounter a kid in my part(s) of the Northeast who thinks that.</p>

[TheGFG]

<p>I live in the NE, and the University of Michigan is highly regarded by students at our high school, especially for engineering. One of D’s friends attends Cal Berkeley, which is also on the radar for kids here. Ignorant people are ignorant people; geography has little to do with it, especially in today’s world of universal internet access. Furthermore, the fact that kids here aren’t in love with our state flagship is also not due to geography or ignorance or snobbery. It simply isn’t that great of a place and its rankings relative to other state flagships confirm that concept.</p>

[QuantMech]

<p>The Times higher education rankings, released fairly recently, are here:
[World</a> University Rankings 2013-2014 - Times Higher Education](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking]World”>World University Rankings 2013-14 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>

<p>This ranking weights research heavily, but the quality of research at a university is not unrelated to the quality of the faculty members themselves and of the teaching there–and actually, the learning environment counts for 30% of the score.</p>

<p>The University of Michigan comes in at #18 in the world, well ahead of a number of the Ivies and many other private universities.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>As a career as a professor is more competitive than many, Ill point out that even at community colleges you will find those who have published recent research & whose degrees are from schools oft hungered after on CC.</p>

<p>Some profs may also prefer lower tier schools, because of proximity to other perks, like family & friends, recreation opportunities, etc. They might also enjoy emphasis on teaching undergrads as opposed to managing post- docs.</p>

<p>Many families will be full pay at any school, but they didnt get that way through careless spending and they often decide that a publically funded school is a “best buy”.
[Kiplinger</a> - Interstitial](<a href=“College Rankings | Kiplinger”>College Rankings | Kiplinger)</p>

<p>LACs can be attractive to some, especially those who want the personal attention that they maybe didnt find in high school, but attending a school where there are maybe 7-10 profs in a dept., ( or fewer) has just as many drawbacks as attending a large flagship where students are divided by interest groupings so as to make their numbers seem more manageable.</p>

[BossyMommy]

<p>Thanks for that link, ucbalumnus. For me the value on my own college education came in part from institutional reputation (which I didn’t appreciate until after graduation, when multiple job interviewers would say, “since you graduated cum laude from SmallNESCACCollege, we know you are capable…” I’m in my 40s and still hear it as I look for freelance work!) but also from the small classes and close relationships with faculty. My eldest daughter would likely thrive best in a similar atmosphere, so we are looking mostly at small LACs.</p>

<p>Other posters, keep in mind that many preferences are not based in snobbery, but in actual tangible differentiating factors.</p>

[TheGFG]

<p>You’d have to pass 100 on the list to reach our flagship, so a smart student not wanting to attend means he knows what’s what.</p>

[Bay]

<p>I can think of some reasons why some may “look down” on publics, but they don’t necessarily apply to all publics:</p>

<p>-Huge class sizes</p>

<p>-Limited funding</p>

<p>-There is a more “public institutional” impersonal feel to the campus. The administration doesn’t know who you are and doesn’t care.</p>

<p>-No recommendations may be required, so students of dubious moral character and those who cannot get anyone to give them a recommendation are admitted.</p>

<p>-ECs are not generally valued as much as in privates, so more “study drones” or couch potatoes go there.</p>

<p>-Diversity may be lacking if affirmative action is prohibited. Lack of geographical diversity is almost assured.</p>

[TheGFG]

<p>Facilities may not be well-maintained.</p>

<p>Have heard rumblings that this year students at the flagship are having lots of trouble getting internet access on campus, and when they do it’s very slow. Some are going home at night so they can get their work done faster.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>My daughter attending a public U has lived off campus since freshman year, but I dont think it was because of server speed.
That would be a hassle.</p>

<p>

Particularly significant increases came in states such as Massachusetts (16.8 percent) and Washington (12 percent) where recent budgets have left public colleges struggling. (The positive picture is far from universal, of course; Louisiana subjected its public higher education system to yet another cut, of 17 percent, in 2014 and West Virginia and Wyoming imposed cuts of 5 percent or more)

</p>

<p>States are finally starting to increase spending for education. YMMV.
[State</a> funding upturn: familiar pattern or newfound importance for higher ed | Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/22/state-funding-upturn-familiar-pattern-or-newfound-importance-higher-ed]State”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/22/state-funding-upturn-familiar-pattern-or-newfound-importance-higher-ed)</p>

[ChoatieMom]

<p>

I don’t get the logic. Are all Exeter kids brilliant, of some elite caliber? Maybe seven of the top Exeter kids went to Princeton and the bottom seven went to Michigan.

</p>

<p>The logic is this: Students at the most elite high schools do not consider U- M to be a shabby choice. And don’t underestimate the bottom of Exeter’s class; it’s none too shabby either. Even at these schools, U-M is no one’s safety.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Bay

I can think of some reasons why some may “look down” on publics, but they don’t necessarily apply to all publics:

</p>

<p>Many private schools, particularly non-elite ones, also have the same “features”. Even elite private schools sometimes have some of these “features”.</p>

<p>

@Bay

-Huge class sizes

</p>

<p>Present at many non-LAC private schools, including Harvard, Cornell, Princeton, Stanford, etc.</p>

<p>

@Bay

-Limited funding

</p>

<p>[Is</a> Your College Going Broke? The Most And Least Financially Fit Schools In America - Forbes](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/sites/schifrin/2013/07/24/is-your-college-going-broke/]Is”>Is Your College Going Broke? The Most And Least Financially Fit Schools In America)</p>

<p>

@Bay

-There is a more “public institutional” impersonal feel to the campus. The administration doesn’t know who you are and doesn’t care.

</p>

<p>How do the really big private schools like USC, NYU, BU, etc. compare?</p>

<p>

@Bay

-No recommendations may be required, so students of dubious moral character and those who cannot get anyone to give them a recommendation are admitted.

</p>

<p>Presumably, there are private schools that do not use recommendations.</p>

<p>

@Bay

-ECs are not generally valued as much as in privates, so more “study drones” or couch potatoes go there.

</p>

<p>ECs tend to diminish in importance when one gets away from the super-selective schools which have numerous applicants compressed at the top of the academic credential scale.</p>

<p>

@Bay

-Diversity may be lacking if affirmative action is prohibited. Lack of geographical diversity is almost assured.

</p>

<p>Most schools tend to attract a disproportionate number of students from their region. While the super-selective schools can have their pick of top-end URMs, there is (by definition) a shortage of URMs to go around the various schools, so some of the schools are going to come up short on URM enrollment.</p>