<p>I have applied to both The Boston Conservatory and Emerson College. I've heard mixed reviews on both schools, but i would like to know which school is the best to attend. I want to study musical theater, but my most important concern is the acting portion of the major. Which one can i achieve more in?
Thanks.</p>
<p>The way you have framed your questions is a way that is just about impossible to answer. Neither school is "best to attend". Plus, there is no way for us to say in which environment you can achieve more in. </p>
<p>What I can tell you is that only YOU can determine which is best FOR YOU. Picking a college is about which school best meets your preferences, criteria, interests, etc. Ideally, you would have listed and thought about which criteria is important to you in picking a college and in picking a BFA program. Then once you found some schools, you'd visit them, talk to faculty and many current students (don't rely on just one person's opinions or experiences there) and it sometimes helps to then list the points about each school....could be pro/con or just any factors you have learned about each school. Then figure out which one's list more closely meets your own preferences in a college. For a BFA program, you want to closely examine the curriculum (here is where you can determine how much acting training if that is what you are saying matters a lot to you) and other emphasis, etc. </p>
<p>Just for starters, Emerson and Boston Conservatory differ in many ways. While both are located in Boston, Emerson is bigger than BOCO. BOCO is just a conservatory and so everyone attending is there for the arts. Also, there is very little in the way of liberal arts though they do offer some humanities courses but there is very little in the way of options in that regard. BOCO's BFA program is bigger than Emerson's. Emerson has quite a bit of liberal arts to their program. BOCO has a showcase, but Emerson does not. Emerson also has an Acting BFA and other theater studies and BOCO just has MT. BOCO has a little bit higher reputation in the MT world but not enough difference to affect your choice if you like Emerson better. BOCO has a senior emphasis in one area. Emerson has nicer theater facilities. Both programs have evaluative reviews to remain in the program. These are just a FEW differences right off the bat. You must look at each aspect and examine the curriculum and much else and see which aligns most with what you want in a college program. Have you visited? That will greatly help with your own impressions. Also, you have to see who accepts you because BFA admissions is such tough odds that sometimes, the decisions are narrowed FOR you. </p>
<p>For a long while, my daughter really liked Emerson but she had visited it before she had visited many other programs. As the audition season went on , Emerson moved down some notches in her preference list. She used to not love BOCO and then when she auditioned there and saw a show there, she liked it much more and I think even more than Emerson in the end, and would have considered attending depending on how her admissions went. She truly wanted some liberal arts though and BOCO did not fit that criteria but she just liked BOCO a lot anyway. The more and more she got to know schools, her opinions evolved. She got into BOCO, but with Emerson, she only got into the college, not the BFA program. For some reason, she had felt that Emerson might be "easier" to get into (but not easy by any means) in terms of the BFA program than many of her other schools but it did not turn out that way in her case. She is now at NYU/Tisch/CAP21. In the end, she opted to go the college and program that fit what she wanted in a college and now that she is there, it seems like the best match for HER. She was not looking for "the best" and I can't claim she is at "the best" but I can claim she found a place that truly fits her. That's what you need to examine for yourself.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>PS...what do YOU like about each of these two schools?</p>
<p>My recommendation is that you should audition for both of them if they are both schools in which you are interested. This field is very competitive. Wait until you are accepted to both before worrying about which you like better. You should probably also add some schools that may not be quite as hard to get into (percentage wise).</p>
<p>Well, I have prior Theater training and I want to continue improving my skills as an actress. I just wanted to know, from people who have or still attend this schools, if their theater portion is up to par. I heard many things about BOCO, such as how their theater training focuses more on presentational work, instead of improving the students skills. However, I spoke to a representative to another college and she told me I would get the most out of BOCO in oppose to Emerson.
I just want to know from people who have attended these schools or know someone who does, if they felt they got the most out of them. I feel as though I'm leaning towards BOCO, but I feel I'll be well-rounded if I go to Emerson. I just don't want to have any regrets.</p>
<p>While it is good to think about these things, you'll have to see just where you get in because it is highly competitive and the decision may be made for you. Have you applied to more than these two BFA programs? I realize you say you have prior theater training but so does almost every kid who is applying. With such low acceptance rates, you just do not know what will happen and there is an unpredictable aspect to it. </p>
<p>For example, my daughter got into BOCO but not Emerson (for the BFA part). A friend of hers is at Emerson's BFA program but did not get into BOCO. Another friend is going to BOCO but did not get into any other BFA program (she applied to many). See what I mean? My D has another friend in Emerson's BFA who did not get into Tisch but my D got into Tisch but not Emerson. Another friend got into UMich but not Emerson. I could go on but I think you get the idea here. </p>
<p>Let's say you do get into both. It is very important that you visit and talk to current students in each program....more than one kid at each, too. You said someone at "another college" advised BOCO over Emerson but that person is not on the faculty at either. You need to investigate both schools directly with faculty and with students. </p>
<p>I can't imagine BOCO just focusing on presentations and not improving skills. The students take classes, not just put on shows. Students' skills must improve there just to pass review to stay in the program there. This statement doesn't seem accurate to me. </p>
<p>Also if you are looking into the acting training as very important to you......you mentioned that but not so much the singing/dancing......observe a class at each....talk to professors.....Also, perhaps you should look into a MT BFA program that is located in a drama school....CAP21 at Tisch is such a program. It all is about "fit". As far as being "well rounded"....Emerson doesn't make you more well rounded but it definitely has much more liberal arts than BOCO, though is not as well rounded of a liberal arts school than some others. In the end, you must decide what YOU want in a college experience....then explore a college in depth....and decide if the college and program closely fits your college criteria. It is about the right match for YOU, not which is the "best" necessarily. </p>
<p>I hope you do this exploration, visit, talk to students, have applied to more than two BFA programs, and also realistically understand the admit rates and that it is not that important to decide which school you like best NOW but wait to see your options in April. Though it is natural to have favorites, it is more realistic to know that in this competitive process, it will come down to the options and cards you are dealt and you'll go from there and perhaps even revisit a couple if you are lucky to get into several. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan's post about how selective some of these programs are, and how even many talented kids with previous impressive theater experience don't get into all or even some of the programs they apply to made me wonder:</p>
<p>Is there any "usual" or "average" number of colleges that it is smart for a prospective MT student to apply to? If so, how many, roughly? Back in my day, we applied to maybe four colleges or universities. Now, friends with kids who have been through the process (though not for MT!) tell me that the average kid applies to 8 to 10 colleges or universities. I am guessing that that would be the same for MT candidates? Susan? Anyone? </p>
<p>Is it also "typical" for a student who does apply/audition for, say, 10 MT programs to be accepted at at least a couple? Or can we not say that? I realize that so many factors go into this: how talented the applicant is, how well prepared, how the auditions go, and what schools the student is applying to. Hopefully, most students (or, at least, many) get adequate counseling and advice from people who understand the process, and therefore, choose a range of schools, from reaches to safeties.</p>
<p>Sorry for the convoluted nature of my question. Once in awhile, we hear here about someone who did not get into any of the programs to which he or she applied. I am trying to ascertain whether that is an unusual occurrence.</p>
<p>Anyone?</p>
<p>LD</p>
<p>Lisa, </p>
<p>I think I have written about this topic on this forum somewhere along the line but not really sure where that is now. </p>
<p>Let me try again. You brought up a few topics/questions. </p>
<p>Starting with REGULAR (not BFA) college applicants.....the answer as to how many apps to submit will vary on the type of applicant. For many students, about 8 or so is a good number. There needs to be a balance of reaches, matches, and safeties. For instance, 3 reaches, 3 matches, and 2 safeties is a good balance. If someone is going for highly selective schools where the odds for admissions are very low even for TOP students, sometimes applying to more might be appropriate....say 10 or so. I have seen kids apply to more than 10. My personal opinion is that once you get to 12 or more, the efforts for each college application, visit, level of interest displayed, is diluted. There is no way to put enough into each one, plus there is a delay in narrowing the focus and April of senior year is late to have so many still on the list. If someone is not going for reaches, or let's say is an applicant to either state schools or schools that do not have low admit rates, sometimes 6 applications or even less can work just fine. It is important that everyone still have safeties. Also, narrowing too far might not provide enough options in spring in case the student's interests and preferances have shifted. But the total number will vary per kid and their situation. There is no hard fast "rule" here. For many kids, about 8 is a good number. My oldest child, who was an excellent student and did have some highly selective schools on her list, applied to 8 colleges. I'm not sure the exact classification of schools on her list but it was approx. 4 Reaches, 2 matches, 2 safeties. She also was offered a free ride, plus Honors college at our state university, to which she had not intended to apply but since that app was free, as was the tuition, she also submitted that application. I think her results demonstrate a balanced list. She was admitted to 2 reaches, waitlisted at 1 reach, deferred than rejected at 1 reach, admitted to 2 matches, and admitted to 2 safeties, plus the state U free ride/admittance. She is attending one of her reaches (Brown). </p>
<p>Now for BFA candidates....in my view, just about every BFA in MT program is a reach for anyone. Their admit rates being between 3-10% make it so. Therefore, even the most HIGHLY qualified/talented kids are not likely to be admitted to every school on their list but likely will get into SOME place. There are SOME BFA schools, though while still having a low admit rate, are a little less competitive in terms of their applicant pool.....still a reach in terms of odds but by the same token, kinda in another category, if you will. For some kids, they may want to add some of these. I know I will get myself in hot water with some people but I'll give you an example......CMU and CCM are more competitive to get into than Hartt, UArts, or Wagner, Marymount Manhattan, etc., though all have low admit rates and all are difficult to get into. What can happen is that very talented kids also apply to places like Hartt, for example, but if admitted to Tisch, UMich, CCM or some such, will often take that offer, thus opening up slots at places like Hartt to other talented kids who did not get into the so called "top programs". That is another way to kind of balance out the list. Another way is to add some BA programs in MT either by audition or not.....such as Muhlenberg, American, Indiana, James Madison, UNH type of schools. These are not easy to get into either but could be a possible backup for a competitive BFA candidate. </p>
<p>How many to apply to will vary depending on a student's talents/circumstances. I think for applicants who are truly competitive and have some sort of "benchmarks" or other ways of knowing this.....they may not end up adding the less competitive BFA programs or BA programs, though it does seem chancy and certainly goes against NORMAL college admissions standards to have reaches, matches, safeties, because the selective BFA programs are virtually all Reaches in terms of odds. However, those odds are increased by applying to SEVERAL. Speaking of personal experience, we felt our daughter was competitive in the BFA applicant pool though were VERY cognizant of how difficult the odds STILL would be and were concerned how she'd fare but felt that she likely would get into at least one but had no idea which and did not count on any individual schools realistically. She only applied to selective BFA programs, no back up BA's or "easier to get into" BFA's. She applied/auditioned to 8. That felt like a good number for HER but again, you have to adjust for each person. Most of her theater friends were also quite competitive applicants and most had a similar number of schools, give or take. For my kid, I think we did plan appropriately as her results were even better than we'd expect given the odds. She was admitted to 5 BFAs in MT, waitlisted at 1, admitted to one college but not their BFA program, and denied at 1. She ended up with options. I can't say what is a typical result. You can go to last year's big list of acceptances. Some kids got into 2 or 3, a few kids got into 4 or 5. A couple kids got into none or 1. I can't give you a magic number of how many to apply to because it is based on individual cases. The kids who got into none were likely not competitive for BFA admissions and should have had back up BA schools on their list. I have clients who I suggest to have some BFA's and some BA's or some BA's in MT by audition to balance their list. Sometimes their lists then need to have about 10-12 schools because of the different categories they are including on the list. I have clients with poor academics and so their lists must be built differently as well. My D has several very talented friends who did this process last year.....they ALL got into BFA programs.....I know of kids from that grouping who got into just one, two, or three....and then a couple, like my D, who got into five BFA programs. I don't know any who got into more (and these kids are all at top programs now). Again, look at last year's list on CC, which clearly doesn't represent ALL applicants but surely a nice cross section. </p>
<p>I hope this helps you some. When your D's time comes and you'd like assistance in assessing her chances and building an appropriate list, I'd be happy to help. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan, you are amazing. You never just dismiss any of my sometimes quite naive and even stupid questions. You always answer so respectfully and thoroughly, and I truly appreciate it. Because you are so nice about all this, I have yet another question: how do you, or other college counselors working with students applying to BFA in MT programs, assess what is realistic for that student as far as reaches, matches and safeties in terms of a kid's talent and experience? In other words, aside from a student's GPA and standardized test scores, how do you, as counselors, rate a candidate's talent and how it stacks up against the expected competition? Do you have to see the candidate perform?
Forgive me if this is a silly question. But I am honestly intrigued about how you ascertain level of talent in order to assess which schools' programs would be a good fit/reach/safety. I am sure a student's resume must help, but as we have talked about on this forum elsewhere, we all acknowledge that there are some very talented and thus, competitive kids out there who have not attended prestigious or well known summer programs, or even had much experience at their high schools.
Lisa</p>
<p>NotMamaRose - After reading this forum for some time, I will echo Susan that some kids get into almost everywhere, others get into one or a few, and some people have auditioned 10 or 12 places and not gotten in anywhere. Because the odds are so bad, I recommend that everyone find a non-audition school with which your child could be happy. Make sure it is not a reach academically. Visit some of these schools to find what you like.</p>
<p>Lisa, your questions are most certainly NOT stupid. You are a wise mom to be reading up on this process and becoming more informed so you can be a resource or advisor to your daughter. None of us knew a whole lot about this stuff until we got our feet wet. We are passing it on to the next "crop." I also am now trained as a college counselor so try to respond to questions that are general and that many might be interested in. If people want ongoing counseling help and assistance with individual cases, then they can sign up for college counseling services. To do that, my email is: <a href="mailto:susant@collegeconfidential.com">susant@collegeconfidential.com</a>.</p>
<p>Regarding your most recent question....</p>
<p>You asked how I assess a student's chances for various schools, particularly in regard to their talent and background. First, there is the academic piece because kids still must get into these schools academically, and some are more selective than others in that regard. For EVERY student, I get extensive information via a very thorough questionnaire I have developed for them to do. I also find out their college criteria and preferences, as well as academic and career interests. When I have all that information, as well as any colleges they are already considering, I do an evaluation and then estimate their chances academically at the schools on their list, as well as put together a list of colleges that I feel would be most suitable for the student based on my findings from the evaluation and the student's college preferences and interests. Then for kids contemplating BFA programs, there is the whole talent element. This is truly more subjective, of course. First, I have many questions on the questionnaire related to this area. I also thoroughly discuss the options such as BA vs BFA and which makes sense given their intended interests and desires. In terms of talent, I can PARTLY evaluate to some degree, by looking at their background....training, roles, accomplishments, and so forth. While that is not the same as viewing the talent, there is at least a feeling of which "ballpark" they are in. The amount of training, experiences, which roles they tend to get, what achievements they have garnered says SOMETHING, not everything, however. There is a sense about the preparation, the passion, the commitment, and how they have fared in casting or other achievement areas...patterns, if you will. It gives a sense or ballpark for starters. No guarantees but simply an idea. I have seen great variation and just from that information, have some idea how competitive of schools they might want to shoot for, the necessity of back up options, non BFA options and what not. If necessary, I can view video tapes. Since it is not an exact science and even if I saw a kid in person, that would not tell me if they will get in or not when admit rates are so low but I can say if a kid seems like an appropriate candidate for selective BFA programs or not. I would not discourage a kid from trying even if not well trained or experienced but would definitely be realistic and suggest a balanced list of options. I have clients now who either do not have a lot of training or achievements and have helped them create a reasonable list, or have very poor academics and in that case, the list is radically different than some other client, and so on and so forth. Between the academic information, extracurricular and personal activities and accomplishments, awards, preferences and interests, theater training in various disciplines, theater resume/credits.....it is enough to build an appropriate college list. Video tapes can be another piece of information. Also, a student still would need to work with a voice and acting coach on their repertoire. A college counselor facilitates the entire process with regards to college selection, the admissions process, and the audition process, but is not dealing as directly with the actual training or prep for the auditions in the way that a voice or acting teacher will still need to do. I also discuss various benchmarks or ways of self assessing....what the student has accomplished either locally, in summer programs, in their state, etc. and encourage them to get fair assessments from professionals who work with them. Since there is no way to know who will get into which BFA programs, there is enough to go by to build an appropriate list. Even the most talented kids cannot be assured of admissions to individual programs. A counselor can also help a student and parents become more realistic in case they are not as aware the level of competition for such programs (some aren't). I hope that gives you some idea. Yes, it is trickier to assess "chances" with regard to the talent piece, than with the academic piece, given the subjective nature of it, but the most selective BFA programs are REACHES for ANYONE anyway, so are not so predictable no matter what. I can reasonably assess if someone's list is appropriate or not but the rest remains to be seen when we are talking admit rates in the single digits. I can evaluate the odds on the academic piece which is definitely STILL a piece of the admissions even for BFA kids and frankly some students no matter HOW talented, are not qualified academically for SOME schools that have BFA programs and I have had to have some kids alter their list on this one part alone. There are a lot of factors that go into this!</p>
<p>I forgot to mention that I know many kids already in BFA programs and I know what they had done before they got there and there is that level of comparison....it is not exact but just another piece. Even my own daughter self assessed with regard to others she knew who were attending these programs and if she had either similar accomplishments or level of talent. This stuff can't be predicted with accuracy but enough that a reasonable, balanced, and individualized college list can be built for any student.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Thanks so much, as usual, Susan. I have a much better sense of the process now, and see that having someone like you help us assess when the time comes will be a big asset. </p>
<p>One more question (isn't there always "one more?"): do some BFA programs in MT decide, based on auditions, that a student who wanted to be in MT might find a better fit in a straight acting program at the same university or college, or do most colleges consider kids only for the program for which they are applying? (Hope that makes sense.)</p>
<p>Also, can a student who is intent on pursuing a career in theatre apply and audition for two programs at one institution: a BFA in MT and a BFA in drama/theatre?</p>
<p>Just wondering ....</p>
<p>Lisa</p>
<p>Some schools DO consider kids from the same audition - Otterbein and OCU are two that have been mentioned on CC - there may well be more.</p>
<p>Some allow you to audition for both, but they require separate auditions - and due to the timing, require separate dates. CCM and UMich are 2 that I know fit in this category.</p>
<p>There is also another factor in choosing schools to try for, that many people may not want to admit to and that is financing. We have never been well-to-do, but a little over a year ago my husband had a lengthy life threatening health situation. That pretty much took care of expensive educations for our boys, we were just trying to keep our heads above water. When I sat down with my MT S and explained that he wouldn't be able to try for the big schools he took it real hard,
and said what if he could get a scholarship, then I told him that we would not be able to travel to even get him to these auditions. But he's a good kid and came around, so our choices are limited to our geographic area. Being in the midwest we don't have as many choices, but there are a few, and we have to hope that in this diminished pool of choices that one will want him and hopefully offer some scholarships, he already has an academic scholarship to one so that's a big relief.
By the way, husband is doing well now.</p>
<p>Srw, I am sorry for your husband's illness and am relieved to hear he is doing well now and wish for continued good health. You are right that finances ARE a consideration for many in choosing colleges. One thing to point out is that sometimes what seems like an expensive college MIGHT be doable because either you will qualify for need based aid which then brings a more expensive college down to the level of a less expensive college (sometimes private institutions may have more money to give) and/or talent based scholarships will be won. So, sometimes it is worth a try to see what happens on the financial front. My daughter has received both need and talent based aid at each school to which she applied. Some have been quite substantial. We can't afford college either but are taking out lotsa loans! But you are right to point out that the price tag is a factor for many families. One way also for you to save on the audition expenses is to go to Unifieds in Chicago....one trip. </p>
<p>Lisa....about your question whether you can either apply to both the BFA in MT and in Acting at a particular school and/or if you can be considered for either......</p>
<p>It varies from school to school. Some examples.....I think for Emerson you must specify which program you are going for and will only be considered for that program (though you can conceivably be admitted to the college without the BFA program as my D was but NOT as if you can be put in acting if you don't get MT, etc. at that college). At some schools, the audition form asks if you don't get into musical theater (which is what you have applied to and are auditioning for), would you accept the BFA in Acting. For instance, I recall this question at both Ithaca and Syracuse and my D wrote "no". She has a friend from our state now at Ithaca for Acting who had auditioned for MT but was willing to accept acting and he did not get MT but got Acting and chose to enroll. At CMU, you choose which to apply for but if you apply for MT, they WILL automatically ALSO consider you for Acting (in other words, you don't fill in yes/no if you'd consider acting) and in fact, my D auditioned for MT there and was put on the Waiting list for the BFA in Acting. By the way, they took about 9 for MT and 18 for acting, so there are more slots in acting there. At NYU, you audition for either MT or Acting insofar as that an acting applicant doesn't sing at auditions and you do specify your first choice studio there....but if you are applying for MT (CAP21 at Tisch), you can and are encouraged to specify a second and third choice studio in case they want to accept you but not for MT (MT has less slots and a lower admit rate there). You are allowed to say you'd ONLY accept CAP21, in which case that is all you'd be considered for. Giving a second/third choice studio does NOT lessen your chances to get into CAP21 but merely opens up the possibilities if you are not accepted to CAP but they still want you for acting. For instance, my D gave Playwrights Horizons as second choice and Stella Adler as third choice, though her desire/experience strongly is toward MT. She gave these there just because if MT did not happen and she did not know what options she'd be given in spring as to other acceptances, she'd leave acting open and decide when the time came. As others have stated, CCM and UMich have separate auditions for Acting or MT. My D did not apply to CCM and was only interested in MT at UMich and just did that audition. My D really only wanted MT. But as you can see, you can leave the Acting option open at several schools. I have clients now who are very happy to accept either MT or acting at some of their schools. BOCO and Penn State only have MT, not Acting, by the way (those were two of my D's schools). I hope that gives you some idea.</p>
<p>Susan</p>