<p>Except if you have some integrity, cheating is always a big deal.</p>
<p>Revisit the third paragraph of post 7. This is frightening. Read the thread again. Cheating is dead wrong, accusing someone of cheating based on assumptions and tests "designed by a young TA" to prove to herself someone is cheating is frightening. You can derail a persons entire life by falsely accusing them of cheating. Read it again.</p>
<p>I agree with conan</p>
<p>
[quote]
They demonstrate such a superior understanding of chemistry that becomes immediately suspect because usually TAs know what level of understanding is achievable by honest studying. There was one guy I missed however. He was smart about it and I realized he had keys already at the very end of the class. So I decide to get back at him and keep things fair for everyone else. Time to prep to the final exam. He comes up and asks me how much the final matters. I say, not very much. He did so well in the class and he has nothing to worry about.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is not only frightening but extremely unethical. Apparently you can't do anything well in this world and not be thought a cheater.</p>
<p>Vicissitudes, I am hiimanalcoholic and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take my quotes out of context. My dislike of snitches does not mean I support cheating. I believe in minding my own business.</p>
<p>All I said was that you were of the group of CC posters who either condone or were apathetic to cheating. I think you aptly belong to the second group. I don't think I took your quotes out of context, but I posted a link to the thread so people can read the entire thread in context.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Revisit the third paragraph of post 7. This is frightening. Read the thread again. Cheating is dead wrong, accusing someone of cheating based on assumptions and tests "designed by a young TA" to prove to herself someone is cheating is frightening.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe you should read the post again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everyone who is honestly attending lecture and reading the textbook pretty much writes down the same stuff. Students with keys include extra fluff and so their quizzes stand out as if written with a highlighter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How can a student write something on the test that wasn't covered in lectures or in textbooks? Before you say "he did outside research" consider two things:</p>
<ol>
<li>The extra fluff corresponds exactly with the answer key.</li>
<li>How many students do you know who do outside research for a class anyway?</li>
</ol>
<p>This seems to me like a blatant case of cheating. Really there is no other explanation for it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Those with keys not only fill out the entire quiz correctly but also answer all or most of extra credit material. In result, they suddenly do better than my A students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm sure you have heard of tests in which the average is 15, 20%. And all of a sudden a guy gets 100%? When the next highest score is maybe a 35%? What's up with that? There are some tests that are designed to be hard, some questions designed to be almost impossible to answer.</p>
<p>But since you seem to be so frightened by being falsely accused of cheating, let's say that the guy really did legitimately get 100%. Have the professor make up another short test of similar difficulty and just take it again. No doubt the guy would get a good score if he were really innocent, and then he wouldn't be accused again because the professor would know he really studies hard.</p>
<p>You say cheating is dead wrong yet you are "frightened" by the TA's accusations in situations in which cheating seems to be the only explanation. So it seems to me like what you really want is for the TA to not accuse anyone of cheating at all, in which case no one will get caught. So you really don't care if cheaters are caught, so long as no one is falsely accused, right?</p>
<p>It sounds like you don't really think these assumptions made by the TA is correct. How about coming up with an explanation for these students mentioned in post #7 besides the simple fact that they just cheated?</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is not only frightening but extremely unethical. Apparently you can't do anything well in this world and not be thought a cheater.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>spe07, if the guy really did do well, why did he get a 28% on the final when every other A student did well? The only explanation is that he cheated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You can derail a persons entire life by falsely accusing them of cheating.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How? The falsely accused person will have plenty of chances to prove himself. He could talk to the TA, talk to the professor, talk to the ethics board, etc. Remember "innocent until proven guilty?" Nothing serious will happen unless there is substantial proof/evidence/reasons to believe that this guy did in fact cheat.</p>
<p>Let's look at the flip side: what if we stop accusing people of cheating because we're afraid of occasionally falsely accusing someone? Imagine a guy who cheats his way through med school and doesn't get caught. Do you really want someone like that to operate on you?</p>
<p>You've taken the entire thread out of context, since it was about snitches not our views on cheating.</p>
<p>It doesn't matter if he cheated, the action of the TA is still frightening and extremely unethical. The point, isn't that the student cheated, its that the TA branded him as a cheater just for doing well on a test and then "decided to get back at him", you cannot under any circumstance hold grudges like these when it comes to teaching. What if the student did great on the final, proving that he didn't cheat. The TA still went out of his way to attempt to "get back at a student", it really scares me that something like that could exist.</p>
<p>I have done extremely well on tests where the averages we in the 30s and 40s (I was in the high 90s on a few of these). I cannot describe the anger and resentment I would hold if I knew TAs or Profs labeled me as a cheater just because I did well on these tests. And you can't ask students to retake a new test just to prove they are that smart, that idea is absurd and extremely unfair to the student.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You've taken the entire thread out of context, since it was about snitches not our views on cheating.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, you gave your input about cheating while talking about snitches. Anyway, I posted a link to the thread so let the readers decide for themselves.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The point, isn't that the student cheated, its that the TA branded him as a cheater just for doing well on a test and then "decided to get back at him"
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe you should read the post again. The TA did not brand him as a cheater just for doing well on a test. That's ridiculous. Look at the post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
He was smart about it and I realized he had keys already at the very end of the class.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The TA said that he had keys. How the TA knew this is another matter. But the TA didn't just accuse him of cheating because he did well on a test.</p>
<p>How is what the TA did unethical? All kihyle did was tell this guy the truth:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The final was worth only 17% of total amount of points, where usually finals are worth 25-60%, a fact I told to everyone else in the class who didn't bother to look it up in the syllabus. I've misinformed him only in that I never acknowledged that I knew he was cheating and not prepared.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>All kihyle did was let the cheater get what he deserved. If he really studied on his own and did well, he would have done well on the final. If he really did in fact cheat, then he would have failed the final. That seems perfectly fair to me. If you ask me the cheater was the one who was unethical.</p>
<p>How is it unethical?</p>
<p>
[quote]
So I decide to get back at him and keep things fair for everyone else.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You can't do that as a teacher, you can't show favoritism or do things to spite students. </p>
<p>Maybe you should read the post again:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also did not know at that time that it is the final exam that determined the disribution for the entire class, so even though it was only 17%, it did matter a lot for their final grade.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The TA misinformed the students, telling them not to worry about a final because it is only worth 17%, only to find out later that it did matter a lot. This is a major problem, again, unethical.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The TA did not brand him as a cheater just for doing well on a test.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From the context of this post, it is of my opinion that the TA did brand him as a cheater. Just because it was not stated in any official manner, the TA had it set in their mind that this student was a cheater. Clearly, they did because they were trying "to get back at him". </p>
<p>I'm not trying to say that the student was free of ethical violations in this case, but the fact is that the TA was far from being ethical as well. The student may have gotten what he deserved, but that doesn't change the fact that the TAs thoughts and actions were unethical. A mentality such as this just scares me. Not to mention the following quote:</p>
<p>
[quote]
They demonstrate such a superior understanding of chemistry that becomes immediately suspect because usually TAs know what level of understanding is achievable by honest studying.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I read that and can only think that whenever a student does well, a red flag is raised in the TAs mind. To me, that is just wrong.</p>
<p>At my school, professors will inform students that a certain test or paper topic is "hot". Giving away that test/paper or putting it in or taking it out of a fraternity/sorority cold test file is cheating. It means that a professor will likely use that topic again. Cold tests on the other hand will not be recycled and can be shared/filed.</p>
<p>I wonder if any other school does this?</p>
<p>I found most of the way the TA handled the situation with the student to be completely ethical. The only problem I have is with telling the students that the test doesn't affect their final grade much and it turns out to be a big part of it. Even if it was accidental, you shouldn't be deceiving students like that.</p>
<p>Post 47..."How can a student cover something in class that wasn't covered in class or in a textbook...? "Extra fluff?" "I realized he had the keys"...more like she assumed he had the keys. AAArrrggghhhhhhh. I give up. The responses and discussion by this TA are FRIGHTENING. This is my last post on this subject.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How is it unethical?</p>
<p>
[Quote]
So I decide to get back at him and keep things fair for everyone else.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You can't do that as a teacher, you can't show favoritism or do things to spite students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't see how the TA did anything to really spite the student. All the TA did was tell him the same she told everyone else, and didn't bring up the fact that she knew he cheated. Just like how if a TA knows that someone in her class is not studying, it's not the TA's responsibility to go up to that person and say "hey, I know that you are not studying. You'd better start studying," it's not the TA's responsibility to go up to the student and say "hey, I know that you are cheating. You should stop cheating."</p>
<p>
[quote]
The TA misinformed the students, telling them not to worry about a final because it is only worth 17%, only to find out later that it did matter a lot. This is a major problem, again, unethical.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How is this unethical? It was an honest mistake. The TA thought the final was worth 17%, so she told the class the final is worth 17%. Besides, if the final really mattered that much how did the cheater fail the final and still get a B- in the class?</p>
<p>
[quote]
[quote]
The TA did not brand him as a cheater just for doing well on a test.
[/quote]
From the context of this post, it is of my opinion that the TA did brand him as a cheater. Just because it was not stated in any official manner, the TA had it set in their mind that this student was a cheater. Clearly, they did because they were trying "to get back at him".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe the TA branded him as a cheater, but my point was that it wasn't only from "doing well on a test." She apparently had many other reasons to believe that he cheated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I read that and can only think that whenever a student does well, a red flag is raised in the TAs mind. To me, that is just wrong.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Obviously that's not the case, or else every TA would think every A student in the class might be cheating because they are doing well.</p>
<p>I read that and think that whenever a student does ABNORMALLY well, such as getting a 100% on a test while the average was say, around a 40 or 50%, that it arouses suspicions of cheating. Not that the TA accuses the person of cheating, but that suspicion is aroused. And I think in these cases the suspicion is well-justified.</p>
<p>Okay, I agree with most of what is being said by the TA but the one thing that still bothers me is the keys. You said that you told the class at the beginning of the year that the keys are not allowed and that's fine but I don't think that you have the right to inforce that rule if the past quizzes were obtained legally.</p>
<p>If a test was handed back to the students 5 years ago and I got my hands on it knowing that the test would be similar this year I do not feel as though I am cheating at all. If the prof plans on reusing the test each year he should keep the written tests and not return them to the students. </p>
<p>On the other hand if the test was stolen or illegally obtained then it should be considered unusable and anyone caught using it should be severely punished.</p>
<p>Students should be able to use anything available to them to study for tests and exams and if the Profs are unwilling to change the test each year the students should not be held accountable</p>
<p>
[quote]
Students should be able to use anything available to them to study for tests and exams and if the Profs are unwilling to change the test each year the students should not be held accountable
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep. And the key word is study. Not cheat, but study. </p>
<p>For example...
I am making this up BTW...</p>
<p>One of my cousins goes to University a full two years before I do. My cousin decides to save her old math tests, notes, and books for her cousin merlin. Because her cousin merlin is slow in math. If her cousin merlin used the old notes and things to get a fair head start on studying, then it is not cheating unless cousin merlin blatantly uses them on a test.</p>
<p>If someone like a TA saw cousin merlin studying really hard at the tutoring lab and called her out on using old notes and things for studying, then the TA would meet an untimely demise in the form of getting complained about to the head of the math department.</p>
<p>There are not any hard core rules and regulations over what a students studies nor how hard a student studies and what they use to study. The only thing which is unethical is to just plainly cheat and not work as hard as you can. I mean, if you work as hard as you can and if you walk into your test with like a blue book and some yellow number two pencils and your pocketbook- then that is it. What you do on that test is all that matters. How hard and how far gone you had to get to study for it is not a TA's business. </p>
<p>The only thing which iks a TA's business is if they see cheating for sure and that is it. If some one like a TA tried to mess with me like how the TA in this thread messed with that one science student and basically the whole science class- then I would make sure they got fired.</p>
<p>It doesnt really matter if a prof is lazy if he says that the rule is you cant use old tests than you cant thats the honor code for the class. Professors have the right to set their standards as they choose. If they find a student that has been using past tests after they explicity said it wasnt allowed then it is cheating and the student should be punished.</p>