I was looking at the Forbes College List on the parents forum page http://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliesportelli/2016/07/06/the-full-list-of-americas-top-colleges-2016/#20c6bb7a69a4 and noticed that there are a LOT of schools mentioned frequently on this forum that are ranked low on the academic list. Examples: Otterbein is 549/660, Texas State is 593/660, and Wright State is 660/660. What does that mean for kids? Are academic classes super easy? Is that good or bad?
You are correct. And that is something you have to factor into your decision making.
On the plus side, if you are a strong student and have high test scores, it most likely will mean significant academic money for you which can greatly reduce the cost of college. Many of these schools also have honors programs you can participate in if you are seeking more of an academic challenge. I will warn you that some MTs, although academically inclined, can find the demands of the honors program hard to schedule with the demands of the MT major. But this varies from school to school. Ask how many MTs are in the honors program and how they make it work. I am a true believer that you can get a good education anywhere if you are a dedicated student.
If we are all honest, a degree in any other subject from Ottebein, Texas State or Wright State - or any of the many MT schools with lower stats - is not equal to a degree from Michigan, Carnegie Mellon or NYU or other schools who are known for their academics. But they do all offer fantastic training in musical theater. Just because they don’t have as strong of an academic reputation, that does not mean you cannot get a good education and learn a lot. These schools all have good things to offer both inside and outside of MT. But in the world outside of MT, your degree may not carry as much weight as a better known school.
Outside of academics, see what else the school can offer to you. For example, at OCU, our D has had the opportunity to dine with Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, meet Sister Rosemary from Uganda, interact with political and business leaders In Oklahoma and beyond and she has met a wide variety of other people who have had a significant impact on our world. Although larger and more well known schools also bring people of note to their campuses, I’m just not sure she would have gotten the opportunity to personally interact with them at a larger, more academically competitive school. It can be easier to get involved at a small school.
All that to say – just because the schools have lower stats does not mean there are not great opportunities available on campus. .And challenging classes to be taken. Really do your due diligence and find out what kinds of classes you can take, what outside opportunities are available to you and which MT program best suits your need. See where your fit in best.
I’ll to try to answer your question from my perspective and the perspective of my S who is an MT at Texas State. If my S was a business major, for example, he most probably would not have gone to Texas State. BUT, he is an MT major and Texas State has one of the top programs in the country so that is where he is. He is receiving top notch training to prepare him for his chosen career. So in that regard he is going to a top tier school. The key thing to him (and to me) was the quality of the MT program itself, the overall university reputation was secondary.
Outside of MT, he is in the honors program and got some very nice academic scholarship money as well, so that is a plus. The director of MT encourages all the MTs who qualify to apply to the honors college. I believe that all the freshman MTs from last year’s class were in the honors college and all made the Dean’s List. So proof that you can get the education and excel if you want to put forth the effort.
He does not find the core academic courses at Texas State super easy and he has taken both honors and regular core classes. Personal opinion here: There are probably a higher percentage of kids in the general population at Texas State that do not take their studies as seriously as the percentage at UMich. However, an excellent education can be had if you look for it.
My last personal opinion: San Marcos is a great college town and I have been very impressed (a little to my surprise if I am honest) at the quality of the university and the professors who teach there. No, its not Carnegie or Michigan from an overall academic reputation standpoint, but I have been very pleased with it from the perspective of my MT S and the training and overall university experience he is receiving.
As @vvnstar said: see where you fit in best. But I would not let the academic standing of a school dissuade you from going there if the training is top notch and the opportunities for your child are there.
I totally agree with all @vvnstar says above. My S is a junior MT BFA at Wright State. Yes, it is not academically selective for admittance. Yes, the academic classes are not “rigorous”. Yes, he is in the honors program, but after four semesters has yet to find an “honors” class that fits in his schedule (not happening this fall either).
On the other hand, he came to WSU with several AP classes that he received college credit for w/o paying and freeing up some of the Gen Ed requirements for other classes. He was a National Merit Finalist and will graduate with a Arts degree that he/we did not have to pay one cent for (yep, full ride). The MT program is highly competitive to get into, has a terrific faculty who teach their students in a caring, positive, highly-skilled environment, and its graduates do VERY well. Students have all the opportunities to mount original student-run works they can squeeze into their schedules - something that, surprisingly, has become the most valued part of my S’s college experience.
Does S miss the challenging academic aspect? Yep, but mostly he’s too tired to care. Is he glad he has the freedom to make post-graduation plans from a debt-free position? You bet.
Remember too the criteria used to make this list… It was student success after graduation, student debt, student satisfaction , academic success and student awards like Rhodes scholar etc. that he school has won. I mean obviously the best and brightest students who are in STEM fields and law etc would obviously attend those top schools listed. Those schools are specifically for those areas. You just have to look at MT differently. I agree if your child wants a challenging academic environment AND the rigors of a strong MT program it might be tough to balance. Not impossible depending on the student. Honors programs might def be an option at some of the schools farther down in academic terms…
This is something we spent a lot of time thinking about. While my husband and I are totally supportive of the idea of a degree in the arts - we decided as a family that academics were going to stay a priority- and we focused in schools where that would happen. I think it’s like everything else in the BFA process- there is no correct answer, and you have to choose the path that is right for you.
Yes, it’s a very personal choice. D wanted strong academics as much as she wanted a good MT program. Actually, academics were probably even more important since in the end, her top two choices were NYU and Barnard. Her belief was that she was only going to be an undergraduate once and she wanted that experience to be top-notch academically. She believed that if she was in NYC at Barnard that she could cobble together excellent training by studying voice and dance privately and studying Engish and theatre at Barnard.
In the end, she decided on NYU and graduated as a VP major with minors in entertainment business and English. She is now 4 years out of school and is involved in entertainment and marketing rather than full time acting. She is going to apply to MBA programs this fall. Having an NYU degree definitely helps make her competitive for top programs.
Without really knowing what path her career would take, I am happy she graduated from a school that was a match for both her academics and talent. Other accepted schools were GW, American, Brandeis and Muhlenberg.
She also considered Skidmore, Tufts, Wesleyan, Vassar, Northwestern and University of Michigan.
Lots of MTs at Northwestern also complete academically-rigorous second majors in four years, so the balance can certainly be found for those who crave it.
Just a reminder - you can get good academics at schools with lesser reputations for academics. You do not have to go to Northwestern or NYU or Michigan to get great academics although certainly they offer a wonderful education. But those types of schools do not have an exclusive on rigorous academics. There are wonderful professors at many of the lesser known MT schools. And with effort on your part, whether it be with independent study, honors colleges or other means, you can challenge yourself academically anywhere you choose to attend. Another thing to consider: even if you attend somewhere that is supposedly not as academically rigorous, you may find classes your freshman year more challenging than you expect. You are transitioning to college and it may be a bigger leap than you anticipate. Not for everyone, but we know more than a few top students who were surprised at the rigor of their freshman year even at our local state university.
As far as the MT schools with less rigorous academic reputations, there can be advantages to some of these lesser known schools. At smaller schools, classes are typically taught by the professors, not by grad assistants which is a plus. Usually at smaller schools, you don’t have to worry about the large seminar classes with hundreds of students in them during your freshman year like you might at a large university. The low teacher to student ratio can make it easier to consult with professors directly versus a larger university with larger classes. And it is probably easier to craft a schedule that allows you to take more academically challenging classes if you so choose. And you will find like-minded students. There just may be fewer of them than at some of the top schools.
So - yes, there are amazing and fabulous strong academic schools which are wonderful choices for some people. However, going to one of those schools is not the only place you can be challenged with your academics. So if you love an MT program at a less than rigorous academic school, research it further to see what they can offer you in terms of a more challenging academic schedule. You may just find it has a lot more to offer you than what you originally thought.
Also, it is extremely hard to get into Northwestern, Vassar, Wesleyan (and I would add George Washington St. Louis), especially if you’re going to need a lot of aid.
Thanks so much for the input everyone. There seem to be so MANY decisions to make: big/small, urban/rural, bfa/ba, conservatory/not - it’s overwhelming!! We will just have to add more/less academic to the list
So assuming I wanted an academically oriented school for my kiddo - what would go on the list? Northwestern, Michigan, NYU, and Carnegie Mellon all got mentioned above - do their kids take more academic classes? What other places would people recommend? (Kiddo has strong stats - aide will not be an issue)
American, Muhlenberg, Elon, TCU, Syracuse, Penn State, James Madison, Illinois Wesleyan, Tulane all have MT programs and good academics
There are also Schools
That aren’t necessarily MT schools that have good theater programs and academics -places like Skidmore, Brown, Wooster,SarahLawrence, SMU Harvard, Yale,Boston University
Somewhere @EmsDad had a list which ranked schools by test scores. If I can find it I will post!
@Sammy8028 Northwestern, Michigan, NYU students do take more academic classes than at some other conservatories. Carnegie Mellon students take almost no classes outside of the major. Other school with more rigorous academics/ where students take a larger number of academic classes that have MT programs include, American, Elon, James Madison, Penn State, UCLA, USC (Musical Theatre minor). Muhlenburg does not offer a Musical Theatre degree, but students can create one with a major in Theatre and minors in voice and dance, and it is also a more rigorous academic school. I am sure there are others I am forgetting, and that others will chime in! 
One of the things I like best about NYU is the blend between academic and artistic study. D really really wanted a BFA program (Northwestern is a BA - and an incredible program) and NYU was/is the perfect blend of enough academics to keep mom happy, and plenty of arts to make kid happy. D generally takes 2 academic classes a semester - and came in with a stack of APs - so has been able to explore interests rather than worry about gen eds. Her favorite last semester was Mythology (which she teamed with a class on theater in Ancient Greece)
University of Miami also has a relatively strong academic reputation. There are general education and foreign language requirements for BFA students. There is merit aid for academically strong students.
As far as state schools go, Indiana’s academic expectations are higher than those of your average bear. They have a terrific BFA MT program, and the academic requirements are closer a Liberal Arts BA than is the norm for other conservatory-style programs.
Rankings vary on their methodologies, for instance, there is considerable variance between the Forbes list and US News and World Report rankings. Here is some data I compiled last year which ranked schools with MT programs purely by SAT scores greater than 1100 (in ascending order. Some schools that don’t get mentioned much here on CC that are academically excellent and have MT programs include: Tulsa, Drake, Baylor, and Tulane.
1100-1199
Nebraska Wesleyan University - 1100
University of Arizona - 1107
Oklahoma City University - 1110
University of South Dakota - 1110
Webster University - 1120
Catholic University - 1125 (BA)
The University of Alabama - 1125 (BA)
University of Utah - 1126
University of Cincinnati-Main Campus - 1130
Ohio Northern University - 1145
James Madison University - 1150 (BA)
Syracuse University - 1155
University at Buffalo - 1155
Christopher Newport University - 1160 (BA)
Wagner College - 1160 (BA)
University of Alabama at Birmingham - 1165
Belmont University - 1170
University of Colorado Boulder - 1170
Indiana University-Bloomington - 1175
Texas Christian University - 1180
University of Central Florida - 1180
Pennsylvania State University-Main Campus - 1195
Florida State University - 1195
Drake University - 1195
1200-1299
Elon University - 1220
Illinois Wesleyan University - 1220
Baylor University - 1225
Emerson College - 1230
Pepperdine University - 1235 (BA)
Muhlenberg College - 1240 (BA)
American University - 1244 (BA)
Brigham Young University-Provo - 1255
University of Florida - 1265
University of Tulsa - 1265 (BA)
Boston University - 1285
1300+
University of California-Los Angeles - 1300 (BA)
Southern Methodist University - 1305
Tulane University of Louisiana - 1320
University of Miami - 1325
New York University - 1355
University of Southern California - 1380 (BA w/MT minor)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor - 1380
Carnegie Mellon University - 1435
Northwestern University - 1470 (BA w/MT certificate)
This thread from last year may be of interest:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1865863-school-selection-for-high-academic-achiever-advice-please.html
Other BA programs (strong theater programs, but not necessarily a degree in MT) to add to the list are Fordham, Oberlin, Williams and Kenyon.
@Reckless I don’t know about the other 3, but Fordham as you stated does not have MT. As far as I remember, they do not produce a musical in their season. Maybe that has changed. but they do have an excellent theatre program with a strong academic standard
@EmsDad I would question the Carnegie Mellon SAT as a reflection of the School Of Drama, but rather the average of entire university. Do you have any info on that?