Fordham vs. Villanova

Colleges and Universities A-Z Villanova University
121

<p>From the Forbes College ranking site:</p>

<p>“The rankings, which are compiled exclusively for Forbes by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for College Affordability and Productivity, focus on the things that matter the most to students: quality of teaching, great career prospects, high graduation rates and low-levels of debt. They do not attempt to assess a school’s reputation, nor are they a measure of academic selectivity and we pointedly ignore any metrics that would encourage schools to engage in wasteful spending.”</p>

<p>The focus is on affordability and levels of debt. They use only ONE source for their rankings;
The Center for College Affordability and Productivity… AND NOTHING ELSE.</p>

<p>USN&WR uses a mutiple of factors, is tested in almost 20 years of trial and error and has become the de facto ranking source. The Best Guides (Fiske, Yale, Princeton, etc.) all list schools that closely reflect USN&WR top 100 findings. Cost is an important factor in selecting a school, it should not be the only or the driving factor. This is how Forbes sells more issues of Forbes: they are VERY different from other ranking mags.</p>

<p>In this instance I concur with knight2011 100%</p>

<p>Use Forbes at your own risk.</p>

122

<p>From the Forbes site:</p>

<p>The rankings are based on five general categories: post graduate success (32.5%), which evaluates alumni pay and prominence, student satisfaction (27.5%), which includes professor evaluations and freshman to sophomore year retention rates, debt (17.5%), which penalizes schools for high student debt loads and default rates, four-year graduation rate (11.25%) and competitive awards (11.25%). </p>

<p>Only 17.5% has anything to do with affordability despite your rounding it up to 100%</p>

123

<p>1980;</p>

<p>We can go back and forth on this, but ask yourself this simple question:</p>

<p>If Forbes is balanced and indeed does take into account all that they claim, why is it that their results are so different, so out of alignment with all the other established ranking methodologies?</p>

<p>Consider but one of their factors; the service academies rank very highly in their evaluation, but according to the methodology you quoted: “post graduate success (32.5%), which evaluates alumni pay and prominence.”</p>

<p>ALL Academy graduates become 2nd liutenants/ensigns with a pay of about $24,000/year. If this is worth more than 1/3 of the ranking, how can West Point be ahead of so many schools whose graduates make much more?</p>

<p>This is but one reason why guidence counselors rarely, if ever, use Forbes for college advising.</p>

<p>But if you want to quote Forbes as a viable ranking, I again advise you do so at your own risk.</p>

124

<p>BTW Forbes rates Sewanee, Centre College, Wabash College, and Kalamazoo College higher than Villanova, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, Washington University in St. Louis, and USC. Interesting and surprising.</p>

125

<p>Good point Jenn.</p>

<p>I remembered another point why Forbes is unreliable and I take this from another thread on CC: Northeastern, a school for having one of the best co-op programs in the country, received a very low ranking -in the 500s- just because it has a 0% 4-year graduation rate. Forbes ignored the fact that Northeastern is a five year school because of the co-op program. It is this kind of flagrant oversight and dependance on one research source, which uses only surveys, that makes Forbes lose almost all credibility in college admissions.</p>

<p>So, do Villanova folks really think Sewanee, Centre College, Wabash College, and Kalamazoo College are derserving of a higher rank over VU? Still think Forbes is worth quoting?</p>

126

<p>Want more?</p>

<p>as 1980 noted" student satisfaction (27.5%), which includes professor evaluations.</p>

<p>Know what student satisfaction means to Forbes? from their website:<a href=“CollegeLifeHelper.com”>CollegeLifeHelper.com; THEY TAKE THIS FROM RATEMYPROFESSOR.COM!!!</p>

<p>This “Source” is so flawed, for Forbes to use this site is insane! By their own and carefully worded admission: “Some would argue that only an unrepresentative sample of students complete the forms. In some cases, the results for a given instructor might be biased because only students who are extremely unhappy (or, conversely, extremely happy) with a course or instructor complete the evaluation, while in other instances perhaps an instructor urges students liking the course to complete the evaluation, biasing results in the opposite direction.”</p>

<p>To take an on-line open survey forum, full of bias, unrepresetative responses and 0% control and QUOTE IT AS EMPERICAL FACTS should show anyone that Forbes publishes this ranking quick, cheap and dirty for one reason: to cash in on the popularity of USN&WR rankings, but without any serious work or research.</p>

<p>But hey, they say Sewanee is better that Villanova, so who am I to argue with such a stalwart in reliable research and journalistic integrity!</p>

127

<p>Sewanee is quite comparable with Villanova by many measures.</p>

128

<p>Your starting pay for academy graduates is about 20 years out of date:</p>

<p>Classes are small, with no more than 18 students. Cadets work their way through a core curriculum in which an English major has to take calculus and a chemist has to take a philosophy course. Since there are no graduate programs, faculty and administrators can focus on the undergraduates.</p>

<p>"A big factor in its (West Point’s) top rank is that grads leave without a penny of tuition loans to repay. The Army picks up all costs and pays the cadets a stipend of $895 a month. On graduation, they start as second lieutenants, earning $69,000 a year.</p>

129

<p>“Sewanee is quite comparable with Villanova by many measures.”</p>

<p>That’s quite an admission considering how many on this thread equate VU with Georgetown, Boston College, ND and others…and that was my point. Glad to see it.</p>

<p>“On graduation, they start as second lieutenants, earning $69,000 a year.”</p>

<p>I stand corrected: I was ROTC many years ago and remembered starting pay for a second Lt.
Yet there are many schools ranked below the academies whose graduates make much more than $69K, notibly tech schools.</p>

<p>None of this mitigates the fact that Forbes is unreliable as a ranking source.</p>

130

<p>villanova is much better than sewanee…but if you feel so inclined to think not then you must also acknowledge that sewanee is better than johns hopkins if you are truly going to go off forbes rankings. </p>

<p>Forbes not only bases their information of nothing more than people’s opinions but also their list is just straight up laughable. No doubt Holy cross is a good catholic college but when HC alum quote forbes because it ranks them well its frankly just embarrassing. Boston college kids at least dont have the gall to quote forbes even though forbes has them ranked #26 (probably the best ranking a paper has ever given them.)</p>

<p>this is why forbes is a joke:</p>

<p>BC, colorado college, davidson, colby college and most of the academies rank above dartmouth, johns hopkins, tufts, georgetown and emory</p>

<p>and on what planet is Notre dame #12…maybe in college football thirty years ago. Upenn and dartmouth have some of the best business programs in the country. penn’s is probably the best in the world. Pre-med at both are extremely respected and are top 10 with duke, johns hopkins, and harvard. Engineering is very strong at dartmouth and is pretty darn good at penn. Notre dame’s strongest program is probably business and it cannot hold a candle to wharton. ND’s pre-med is very luke warm on par with lesser prestigious schools like u-washington, u-illinois, holy cross, and vassar…albeit these colleges have decent pre-med programs but they no doubt are rivaling the ivys or jhu, wash u in stl, etc.</p>

131

<p>Only six Catholic schools made it into the top 100 out of the 650 schools listed this year including The University of Notre Dame (No. 12), Boston College (No 26), Georgetown University (No. 38), College of the Holy Cross (No. 41), University of Santa Clara (No. 72), and Villanova University (No. 83). </p>

<p>Forbes isn’t ranking them based on perceived or actual academic standing but on 5 other factors:</p>

<p>post graduate success (32.5%)
student satisfaction (27.5%)
debt (17.5%)
four-year graduation rate (11.25%)
competitive awards (11.25%).</p>

132

<p>Forget Forbes. Most serious people do.</p>

133

<p>PARIS SCHOOL OF MINES;
2011 WORLD UNIVERSITY RANKINGS<br>
TOP 700</p>

<p>Here is a different ranking to consider. This is based on the number of CEO’s heading the Fortune 500 companies in the world. The majority were international schools so I listed the US and 2 British schools.</p>

<p>1- Harvard
5- Oxford
12- Columbia
13- Stanford
14- MIT
19- Northwestern
21- Chicago
15- Cornell
29- Berkley
30- Cambridge
35- Yale
38- Georgia Tech, Notre Dame
59- Dartmouth
63- FORDHAM, Johns Hopkins, Duke,
82- Princeton
92- Brown, U-Miami, USN academy,
229- Boston College, Boston University, NYU, Rutgers, Michigan, Vanderbuilt,
West Point, USAF academy
349- Emory, Georgetown</p>

<p>Sorry…Villanova and Holy Cross did not make this list.</p>

134

<p>One thing that came to my mind reading this topic: some posters are completely out of touch. My understanding is that USNews doesn’t care with research, nevertheless comparing Villanova to Rutgers, Penn State or Case Western is simply ridiculous as there’s virtually no research going on at Villanova, at least not in the sciences. Nothing at all. Rutgers and Penn State are the public research powerhouses of the North East, whereas Villanova and, to a lesser extent, Fordham lack serious research but focus on teaching. That’s the reason why these institutions are invisible on world rankings. Of course, from the top 40 national list, Wake Forest, Boston College or Leigh are also far from being superior research institutions, but at these are among the worlds best 500 research institutions. (ARWU). But you can’t make it to the national top 40 or 50 (USNews) without research. The research expenditure of Fordham was $7 million in 2010, Villanova’s was even lower, as it wasn’t even the list. </p>

<p>[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2011/national_university_rank.php]National”&gt;http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2011/national_university_rank.php]National</a> University Rankings 2011 | Washington Monthly<a href=“I%20don’t%20care%20with%20the%20rankings%20itself,%20but%20it%20features%20the%20research%20expenditures.”>/url</a> In comparison, Rutgers spend $291 million, Wake Forest $200 million, Georgetown $141 million, and BC $41 million on research. Villanova as national top 40? Hardly. Apples and oranges. </p>

<p>(Be as it may, I would say that Fordham has more national name recognition. I’m dare to say it has some international too.)</p>

135

<p>I came across this thread as part of research I am doing to help my grandson’s friend who is looking at Villanova and Fordham. A few observations.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The character of this thread has the quality of what Freud called “the narcissism of small differences” where people with minor differences between them can be more combative and hateful than those with major differences. </p></li>
<li><p>Most of the discussion of these differences has been on input measures (selectivity, SAT scores, student/faculty ratios, etc.) and not on output measures (students who go on for advanced degrees, national fellowships won, leadership of alumni in science, medicine, law, business and public service, etc.). Because of this, there has been little discussion of the historical and regional dimensions that contribute to a college’s reputation (e.g. Fordham because of its location in New York, a major urban area, and its relative longevity as a top university may have a reputational advantage). </p></li>
<li><p>I find disturbing the blanket statements of partisans like Nova2011 when he/she says things like “Villanova is a much better school than Sewanee.” It reveals a level of naivete and ignorance unbecoming a serious college student. In this instance, if we look at one output measure - Rhodes scholarships won - it is Sewanee 26 to Villanova’s 2. Remember too that Sewanee is a much smaller school. Clearly something very powerful is going on academically at Sewanee. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>We can do better people. Let’s try harder.</p>

136

<p>Gah, this thread has degenerated. Very few people are going to miss a beat for anyone choosing one school ( Fordham vs Villanove) over the other.</p>

137

<p>I am a current Villanova student who is actually looking to transfer to Fordham! It’s not that I don’t like Villanova, but it’s just not for me.</p>

<p>With that said, nova is definitely what most would consider to be a ‘jock school.’ Basketball definitely runs the school and during the season that’s pretty much all you hear about. Plus, anyone who is on a sports team (which is quite a lot of people) are very prevalent around campus. Not that that’s a bad thing, because it’s not, but if you’re not too into sports it might be hard to connect with some people.</p>

<p>Also, in regards to the core curriculum, IT REALLY SUCKS. I knew going in that there were certain courses I had to take, but if you’re going into the liberal arts college (which you would be as a poly sci major) the required courses are excessive to say the least. There are so many that you have to complete that it kind of takes the fun out of taking classes that you know you will be interested in. You’ll be required to take science, math, and diversity classes (multiples of each) even if that’s not your intended major. Of course they want you to be well rounded but that comes at the expense of having extra time to take classes in things that you plan to utilize in the future.</p>

<p>Location; How you feel about Villanova’s location is good or bad depending on how you look at it. Fordham is definitely in a more urban area (which is something that I love personally) while Villanova is located in a very affluent area on what is called the “Main Line.” The area itself is not very college friendly (with only a couple of bars/restaurants which are impossible to get to without a car which you can’t have on campus until junior year.) But, it is safer than the schools in the city like Temple, LaSalle, UPenn, and Drexel. Everything else (like Philadelphia, and neighboring towns) is easily accessible by train. There are 2 trains on campus which is very convenient (definitely a plus!) but $7 for a one way to a trip to center city definitely adds up. </p>

<p>Finally there is the financial aspect…I am currently a freshman so I’m not sure how true this is, but I’ve heard from upperclassmen that nova tends to give pretty generous aid to get you in, then reduces that aid the following year. I’m not sure how true this is, but I definitely had to fight for them to give me additional aid in order for me to come here.</p>

<p>Sorry this response is so long, but just a few more added pros and cons about Villanova:
Pros:
There is a huge emphasis on community service which I find to be a really great thing.
Villanova has so many opportunities to get involved (through clubs, student government, intramural and club sports) that you’ll definitely find something that you love to do
Classes are relatively small and teachers get to know your name which is nice.
Professors are always accessible and extremely helpful when you need them.</p>

<p>Cons:
The buildings around campus as well as the dorms (with the exception of the Nursing school, Business school, and junior apartments) are pretty dated. Dorm rooms are small as well (compared to some of my friends’ who go to other schools) and you better get used to communal bathrooms. I’m not sure how Fordham’s rooms look but yeah…there’s that.
The people here are pretty cliquey. It’s like high school where everyone has their group. Most prevalent are the sorority girls, jocks, and frat boys. You’ll find somewhere you belong regardless of who you are, but just be aware of that.
If diversity matters (which I thought didn’t for me, but I was wrong) just know it’s called “Vanillanova” for a reason. </p>