foreign language question

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
1

<p>Okay so I've heard that UVA likes 4 years of languages, and I'm in my fourth year of french [I'm a senior btw] and it's getting tough. I have had tough courses throughout high school [as listed]
Freshman: (I was in a math & science center) Honors Bio, Honors Research, Honors Geometry, Honors English 9, Honors World History 2, Honors French 2
Soph: AP US History, honors english 10, honors algebra 2, honors french 3, art 1, honors chemistry, honors 20th century [semester course]
Junior: VCU [ap] Pre-Cal, VCU [ap] Chemistry, VCU [ap] Engineering, AP psychology, honors english 11, art 2
Senior: honors french 4, ap english 12, vcu calc, vcu phsyics, vcu engineering 201, ap art history, ap government</p>

<p>my cumulative is a 4.0224 [weighted]</p>

<p>i was just wondering if i dropped french and my gpa got higher would that be any more beneficial to me</p>

2

<p>I don't recommend it. not only is language viewed as important but taking only 6 classes senior year lessens your rigor</p>

3

<p>When you see us talk about "four years", we mean taking language throughout high school. We aren't saying you must get to the 4th level of a language.</p>

<p>Remember that you will have to demonstrate proficiency in a language at UVa. If you let a year pass without taking French, you probably won't do as well on your placement exam (or the AP or SAT II).</p>

4

<p>Don't mislead the person, Dean J, he/she wouldn't have done well on the AP or SAT II regardless. You have to be amazingly good at a language to score a 4 or 5 on the AP. I knew a guy fluent by birth in spanish who got a 4 on the AP spanish exam...</p>

<p>That said you do want to be able to do alright on UVa entrance language exam because that can get you out of a little of time I believe.</p>

5

<p>The primary focus of the statement was the placement exam.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I knew a guy fluent by birth in spanish who got a 4 on the AP spanish exam

[/QUOTE]
That's not surprising. There are people who speak a language (or dialect) while not knowing the grammar rules that govern the written language.</p>

6

<p>IMO, drop engineering. Think about it this way....most of the applicants to science engineering programs are extremely strong in math-science, but some are relatively weaker in the other disciplines. One way to stand out just a little from the math-science geeks is to show well-roundedness and strength in humanities. </p>

<p>concur with DeanJ: living in SoCal we have plenty of kids who speak fluent espanol at home, and easily score 700+ on the Subject Test just by showing up. But, the AP test also includes Castillan spanish so they don't necessarily socre a 5 on the AP. cc archives also has stories from kids in South Florida (Cubano primarily) that also struggle with AP.</p>

7

<p>His/her dilemma is does s/he continue French and risk a lower GPA or does s/he drop French and risk looking like a slacker. Dean J seems to suggest that s/he stays with French (and hopefully get an A).</p>

8

<p>You need to make French learning more fun, and take initiative outside the classroom. "Take charge of your learning," as one would say these days. </p>

<p>I took charge of my own French learning a few years ago, and sped ahead of my peers in reading and writing, who were handicapped by having to learn language in the classroom. (All of us were.) result: F-CAPE score of 696 (exemption cutoff is 470+ I think), and placement with some very advanced classmates. Now if I can just improve my listening comprehension and my reaction times, I may start speaking sufficiently natively-ish. ;) </p>

<p>But the thing is, screw the high school class. (As in, the grade matters, but generally the classroom is not the best way to learn a language.) High school language courses are basically to demonstrate your proficiency with things you should be constantly doing outside the classroom. You have to be very proactive, and the work may seem hard if you haven't been proactive the last three years.</p>

<p>For example, when I started learning French in Singapore, I actually flunked out and got 35% on my final exam the end of my second year. Upon arrival in the United States, I made such a commitment not to repeat the disaster again that I took it upon myself to learn as much as possible outside the classroom, and eventually became 2 years ahead of my cohort.</p>

<p>High school language classes seem terribly unfun. This is not surprising. But if you make a mental effort to start thinking in that language (at first yes, it will be pure translation) and perform constant analysis of everything you say, and French structures that your normal speech could be converted to, and do this daily outside the classroom, you will find such an improvement that your French high school course will suddenly be a piece of cake. And furthermore, you'll gain analytic <em>aptitude</em> for the SAT and ACT. </p>

<p>What I do is find pet words and pet grammatical structures (for me, they include "il (<em>) faut (</em>)", "(<em>) tant (</em>), (*)-ion feminine nouns, etc. but you will have your own) and master those, or at least integrate them into your "cognitive concept". Then you pick a new set that you like and advance that way. </p>

<p>Did I mention: 1) French songs on Youtube? [check out French hip hop] 2) other French online media like tv5.org and 3) playing violent video games with French-speaking clans? </p>

<p>The third option really improves your use of location words and prepositions, and enhances your sense of "language space", because you have to constantly communicate to your team where you are, how the enemy is shooting from behind the third right pillar or from the north vent, or how you should nade the primary valve, how the squad should break into two groups (fireteams) and flank the North objective from opposite sides, etc. </p>

<p>Oh, I actually got to use the excuse that I shouldn't be stopped from playing video games because then that would deprive me of a chance to exercise the French language. ;) </p>

<p>That way, the French language stops being tough. :) Well it will still be tough, but it becomes an enjoyable challenge.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
There are people who speak a language (or dialect) while not knowing the grammar rules that govern the written language.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Forgive me, but I have to object here Dean J. ;) Orthographical rules aren't grammatical rules. Grammar purely governs the spoken system. I see people who are fluent in a spoken language but quite illiterate as people who have mastered that language -- for it is the spoken structures that matter. The written structures are artificial and can be learnt with due course. But the spoken rules are the only ones that become "instinctive".</p>

<p>Trying my best not to rant here, I'm basically trying to reassure those who are better at the spoken component than the written component that they have a way better leg up than those who have it the other way round. Especially with Romance languages, all it takes to be fluent with the written component is just to be skilled with mental translation and use of cognates with English (and avoidance of false friends), which is not quite the same as instinctively grasping that language. In French for example, I see no point in the passe compose direct object agreement orthographical rule -- that rule never makes it into the spoken language and was in fact invented by a 15th century writer (an inkhorn, so to speak). French children, despite their linguistic genius characteristic of all children, (my goal is to become as conversationally fluent as a French six-year-old, and maybe cognitively too) constantly stumble over orthographical rules that never make it into the spoken language at all. </p>

<p>The other downside to stressing orthography in language acquisition is that you have students paying way too much to orthography and not to pronunciation. But the spoken system is always much more critical! (The written system cannot exist without the spoken, but the spoken system can survive without the written.) Children start to become fluent speakers by the age of three or four, but they don't start learning reading and writing for years. Among applied linguists who have fieldwork in language acquisition, there are some who are clamouring (including UPenn's sinologist Victor Mair) that a language acquisition method that better resembles "learning like a baby" is far more effective than one that stresses orthography so early. [Four years IS early.] The nice thing about orthography is that you can acquire foreign language elements at all times of the day without having to speak to a fluent speaker -- you can look up encyclopedias, dictionaries and conjugation tables, etc. That's why early orthography is important.</p>

<p>But for some strange reason, even though that's the normal path all native speakers take, we don't ever watch Blue's Clues in the foreign language being learnt, or go through the acquisition path children would use. Ah no -- instead French language students in their third or fourth year indulge in the works of Moliere! And yet we wonder why children are so much more fluent than the adult students!</p>

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<p>Galoisien, I am correct and you should move on from this thread. I don't feel the need to share my background, but I will simply say that I know this topic quite well.</p>

11

<p>Oh I must concede then. ;) </p>

<p>I totally respect backgrounds, but I like ideas. :) ("....We are not afraid to follow truth where it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it"?) So if some part of my reasoning is misinformed, you must correct me. </p>

<p>Perhaps, it is how we define "grammar". It's just that I don't see any natural (i.e. nonartificial) system in a written language. A native English speaker who violates English writing rules [that have no impact on speech], I argue, has made an error, but not a grammatical one. Certainly not anything warranting an accusation like, "You don't know how to use English." (Extend this to any other language.)</p>

<p>Because I dig linguistics, and it disturbs me if I am erroneous or misinformed but I do not know in what way, surely you must then correct me? ;)</p>

12

<p>Galoisien, Dean J's words were not playful banter. She's telling you as nicely as possible to be quiet. And she's not like the other students here who will embarrass the living daylights out of you. You know how I keep referring to your ill placed rants? This is one of them. Didn't you create a thread so you could put all your rants in that area? </p>

<p>Duylam, as Dean J said, UVa prefers 4 years of language but that's mostly for placement purposes. Will your admissions decision solely hinge on the fact that you didn't take 4 years of French? Of course not. There are many more factors than that and if you replace your French class with something else, it's not a big deal. And looking at your courseload, you won't need to replace it with another ap/vcu class. Someone said something about being well rounded and having humanities classes. You have those (ap art his, ap eng, ap gov) so don't worry about that. Try taking a class that will be a stress reliever/won't add too much stress. You might want to take a PE class; exercise really helps people in terms of mood and that extra few hours a week of PE will help your mental sanity if you start to get really stressed. If you feel that would really affect your application, just leave a note saying that, with your other classes, it was a welcome relief in the day from academics.</p>

<p>Also on your language issue, I took 4 years of French. I had the same teacher for the last 2 years of it and I hated him. I learned nothing except verb conjugations for 2 years. My school requires 3 years for an advanced degree so, when I was finished with my 3 years, I did not want to take that 4th year. My GC was like but many colleges prefer seeing 4 years, yada, yada, yada. So I took the 4th year. It sucked. And I wish I didn't take that class. I could have used that time for a class I was actually interested in. I didn't even bother with the placement test for French because I knew that no matter where I placed, I was not going to take French; I was sick of it. And the vast majority of people are not like galoisien. You really don't have to spend all day watching youtube videos and french online media. In fact, I would have LOVED to have that much free time in high school. I doubt you'll have enough free time to watch so much online, especially with your courseload. And I'm thinking there are other things you would much rather do. Whatever you choose, best of luck.</p>

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<p>Umm ... I didn't have that much free time in high school either. But SURELY the OP must have a playlist, no? Find a French song or two to put on there. Turn your gmail into French. Make a mental effort to start thinking in it. </p>

<p>OP, surely despite the sheer quantity of homework you may have, you MUST be interested in some form of relaxation, there are many ways to apply this to French language acquisition. I played video games like 2-4 hours a week. (Compared to say, 20 hours a week in the summer.) Partially because you need an outlet, and partially because I enjoyed talking in French. </p>

<p>The other thing that you can do is just French-based web research. Maybe philology, word histories and tracking Indo-European cognates between French and Hindi are not your thing. But there's the French Wikipedia, Le Tr</p>

14

<p>1) I absolutely agree with Dean J. Living in Canada, I had numerous French Canadians in my French classes, the trend was they could speak the language better than anyone else, but had a lot of difficulty with grammar. Being able to speak the language most certainly does not mean that you know the grammar. </p>

<p>2) There are some things that people just don't like to learn. Languages are one thing that you're either good at them, or you're not. If you're not, and don't need to take it, don't. If you do need to take it, galoisien had some ideas on how to make it fun, but that's an extremely tedious way to learn something.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
There are some things that people just don't like to learn. Languages are one thing that you're either good at them, or you're not.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I used to believe that you know. In sec 2 (just before high school) I got 35% in French. I thought it was my bane.</p>

<p>then <em>drumroll</em></p>

<p>MINDSET CHANGE! </p>

<p>And then the French language started becoming my friend. ;) </p>

<p>It's all about your attitude, and how you think. Don't let incompetent high school teachers ruin your passion for the subject. That would be admitting defeat too quickly. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Being able to speak the language most certainly does not mean that you know the grammar.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The thing is, what is grammar? I don't know anyone who speaks fluently without knowing the spoken grammar (written grammar is not really grammar -- it's just a set of orthographical rules, or part of style). People have this impression for example that people who use street language or use ebonics (African-American Vernacular English) are somehow being less grammatical, when they are actually being less formal -- they are using a different "register". Agrammatical people are Broca's aphasiacs, or adult immigrants using pidgin. Did you know in the 1960s, there was a (quite myopic) study that concluded that black children's language was so inferior that it affected their ability to think logically? </p>

<p>
[quote=The Language Instinct, Steven Pinker]
The myth that non-standard dialects of English are grammatically deficient is widespread. In the 1960s some well-meaning educational psychologists announced that American black children had been so culturally deprived that they lacked true language and were confined instead to a non-logical mode of expressive behaviour. The conclusions were based on the students’ shy and sullen reactions to batteries of standardised tests. However, if the psychologists had listened to spontaneous conversation, they would have rediscovered the commonplace fact that American black culture is everywhere highly verbal; the subculture of street youths in particular is famous in the annals of anthropology for the value placed on linguistic virtuosity.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The</a> Language Instinct: How the Mind ... - Google Book Search</p>

<p>If you study Broca's aphasiacs, you truly discover what</a> it means to be agrammatical. But the French Canadians you speak of probably do not know how to distinguish in writing the vast number of homonyms there are in the French language, or they engage in ne-dropping, or they don't use the literary rule of making your past participle agree with the direct object in a passe compose sentence, etc. But writing systems are generally artificial. Turn their spellings into phonetic transcription, and suddenly all the problems disappear!</p>

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<p>Dean J thanks I'm in the 4 year which is also the 4th level & to db123 THANKS i have been thoroughly stressing about french class. But I have a direct question to Dean J. At a view of my highschool courseload do you think it matches to what UVA considers as a "rigorous" courseload?
Galosien I'm going to have to agree with you on a few things. Languages aren't a hit or miss subject; you can get better. Also I don't have time to do the things you do <wish i="" did="" though="">. Right now my life consists of work, family and school. But UVA only sees the things on paper so tough cookies for me.</wish></p>

<p>Thanks to everyone who has given me their opinion. I appreciate it. <i love="" the="" heated="" discussion="" btw=""></i></p><i love="" the="" heated="" discussion="" btw="">
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<p>
[quote]
At a view of my highschool courseload do you think it matches to what UVA considers as a "rigorous" courseload?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can answer that. Yes. :) I took about the same as you senior year (7 APs) and that was considered "rigorous".</p>

<p>I don't know if Dean J will answer that question though. There's some things she chooses to answer and some things she doesn't. For the most part, it seems that on things that are on an individual basis (like evaluating chances and such), she chooses to keep mum.</p>

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<p>thanks a lot db!!!</p>

<p>haha my mind has been waiting for a justification for what my heart wants.</p>

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<p>Duylam -- do you <em>really</em> spend all your waking life that you are not sleeping over pure schoolwork or jobs? Most of us have an idea what a tough courseload is like -- some have it tougher than others, that's for sure. </p>

<p>But I really doubt you get zero hours a day for relaxation. </p>

<p>There are so many ways to infuse a language you are learning into your life. The idea is that if you can't bring yourself somewhere to be immersed, bring the immersion to yourself. "Je pense donc je suis". You can walking home from school and have the time to think in French. I don't know what your particular job is, but whether it's assisting a researcher by preparing microbial slides or washing dishes, you can still practice the language, and create constructions to express your current thoughts. Or while repairing cars. Or mowing the lawn. Or feeding the pet. Or wiping off the milk moustache off the baby. </p>

<p>Perhaps I'm being hard because you happen to be dropping a subject that I love -- but I also once loathed it. How is it getting hard? Is it getting boring? Is the teaching going awry? Have you decided that learning French isn't turning out to be all that you imagined?</p>

<p>Most of all, have you tried talking to your teacher? I think your teacher wants to find ways to make the study of his/her language motivating too. </p>

<p>The toughest subjects are nevertheless the most fun, and the most motivating. That's the spirit that most AP students take in stride, right? ;)</p>

20

<p>Ahh you make me feel bad. When i relax i try to get away from anything school related and you're right if I was more studious i should make that effort. but!!! i don't haha. No you're not being hard and you're right some people have tougher classes than me. It's getting hard in the sense of all the work my teacher gives me and I also have to relearn the things I've forgotten over the year and I have to learn what the class is going into. </p>

<p>bro I don't see a future for the French. Mandarin for the win!!! hahaha <i am="" taking="" mandarin="" classes="" btw=""></i></p><i am="" taking="" mandarin="" classes="" btw="">
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