@ccprofandmomof2 I think my best advice is: If you love your scores, submit them. If you’re hesitant, then don’t. It will depend on the school you’re applying to: You could check the admitted freshman profile for your target schools. If you’re concerned and really want to play it safe, I’d submit the 1470 if it’s above the 75% mark at a school. (50% and above is probably fine too. I wouldn’t submit if it’s below that.) I don’t think this year changes what a good score is: the same standards will apply if you submit.
@siddrrsh Yes, doing research with a professor is excellent. Admission officers work for college professors. We’re trying to find them the best students to fill up their classrooms. If you already working with one, that’s fantastic.
I get the concern about other schools seeing Stanford on your Activities Page. But in my experience, you can’t do too much with that as an admission officer. Like, if I see you worked for a Harvard professor, and you’re applying to Stanford, I can’t assume that means Harvard is your top pick and you’re going to get in. (No one can expect to get in with 4% acceptance rates.)
If we think you’re compelling, we want you. And then we’ll make our best pitch at admitted students weekend for why you should join us. The best pitch I heard came from favorite colleague. I’m paraphrasing him but it was something like: “Harvard is safe, it’s like a Volvo, it will get you where you’re going. Stanford is sexy, it’s like a Lamborghini. It will get you were you want to go, and you’re going to have fun driving it.”
@socaldad2002 I’ve given you my best, candid answers in posts #53 and #93.
You asked: “So while some applicants might be excellent students for admissions, they might still not get accepted as they didn’t fulfill the specific institutional needs of the college?”
And: “Just to clarify, just because you say a student should be accepted, once it comes to committee or admissions director they can decide NOT to give this student an offer because they need to shape a class into certain buckets for their institutions needs?”
My answer to your two questions: No, I never saw a student get rejected because they didn’t fulfill an institutional need.
I presented my best students that I thought my colleagues would find compelling at committee and we voted. Some of those students were also recruited athletes and artists; some were first-generation and legacy. And those things were mentioned and were factors in the student’s favor.
I never said recruited athletes don’t have an advantage or that the process is completely objective. I’ve said the opposite: “The key to this process is making peace with the fact that this it’s subjective, involves a lot of luck, and has bits of unfairness baked-in for all sorts of reasons. But admission offices strive to be fair and objective and I think they do a good job of it given how hard the task is: Select 2,000 students from a pool of 50,000 absurdly qualified kids. It’s hard.” (Post #64.)
And I never said there is no shaping of the freshman class to meet institutional needs. I said that was above my pay grade. I’m just reporting my experience and trying to avoid speculating about things while still being as helpful as I can. I’m not withholding information. You seem to want the details on how rating, review, and committees works–that’s why I’m directing you to the Harvard materials. They lay that all out in writing. I think that’s the best source for the information you’re looking for.
@skieurope specifically mentioned parochial school, where there may be required (devotional) religion courses that are irrelevant to non-religious colleges but relevant to colleges affiliated with the same church as the high school. Imagine a student at a Catholic high school applying both to Stanford and other non-religious colleges and one or more Catholic colleges. Would you recommend that the student submit The Common Application with the religion courses to the Catholic colleges and then remove the religion courses to send it to the non-religious colleges?
Is there anything questbridge applicants should keep in mind when applying either through the college match or regular decision? What are you looking for in these applicants?
I attended a rigorous private school freshman/sophomore year and got a mix of A’s and B’s and took the most rigorous classes offered. I ended up realizing that I was not in a healthy environment because I was not treated very well by the staff and some of the other students since I was often the only minority student in the advanced classes. My parents helped decide to transfer to another rigorous private high school where I went on to get straight As junior year in the most rigorous course load. I know you said earlier how these top schools want near perfect grades, but how would Stanford view someone in my case with a gpa on the lower side (~3.6 UW/4.3 W)?
I saw that Stanford’s middle 50% for ACT dropped to a 31, so I decided to submit my 31. Should I consider going test optional and retracting my score or is it really insignificant?
And lastly going along the lines of the other questions, are stats just the gateway to being considered? In other words, do stats matter once an applicant is considered to be academically qualified for Stanford?
Excellent AMA and thank you for doing this. My question is about the relationship AOs have with high schools and their opinion of those high schools.
In my town, there are 3 powerhouse high schools who send quite a number of students to Ivies and T20s every year. The school my kid goes to is only about 6 years old, but already very competitive in terms of scores and ranking in the State. However, the counselors seem to be coming and going every year, and my D21 is on her 4th counselor this year. So I presume building relationships with colleges out of state is probably not happening in this school, because of the large turnover in the counseling office.
The trend we have seen happening is that about 4 kids get in to the Ivies a year and all those that do, get recruited for their sports. These are not the kids with the stellar gpa or test scores, and meanwhile the top students get rejected by the T20 schools year after year.
Are students from such a high school disadvantaged in the admission process?
“Grades: When I was at Stanford, if we unweighted your GPA, an A+, A, A- all counted as a 4.0. A B+, B, B- all counted as a 3.0.”
Well, now I’m rethinking if my daughter should even apply this year - she ended up with 2 B+ in core subjects last year (very close to getting A-) but the second half of the year ended up pass/fail with Covid so she was stuck with them as final grades.
It kind of makes me mad as a parent that a B- is regarded the same as a B+
I had heard U Michigan did this but I thought the elite schools would have more nuance with this.
@MichaelCShort This is one of the best AMAs I have seen here and I would like to thank you for sharing your time and expertise. You have provided compelling insights and examples that demonstrate that “holistic” review at top schools like Stanford is neither “random” nor “a crap shoot.”
" So why would you put this down on your senior class schedule you self-report on Common App?"
First, I appreciate you doing this.
Second, not to be argumentative, the “why” you would list gym, art, metal shop, religion, etc., is because that what the Common App tells you to do. The exact wording (emphasis mine): "Please list all courses you are taking this academic year. "
So it’s not the same as tbe activities section which says “Please list your activities in the order of their importance to you,” but does not say that every activity need to be listed. And I agree, don’t fill space just to fill space.
I will further point out that Stanford, unlike most colleges using tbe Common App, requires applicants to list 9th-11th grade courses and grades, which should be pointless when, as you say, “Admission readers will have your transcript listing all your courses–that’s the main document they will rely on.”
Now if your suggestion had been to list senior courses with the 5 core subjects first, I would agree.
And yes, don’t worry about a mediocre gym grade. ?
@MichaelCShort Thanks for the candid insights! I find them very reassuring as to the sanity of a process otherwise seen as insane and unfair.
I am curious to know - Do you think there have been significant changes in the evaluation process at Stanford since you last worked there? And if so, what would you speculate these are?
I have a question that is loosely related to Stanford but more environmental.
Some institutions appear to be making applications less arduous: no supplemental essay, test optional (pre-COVID), no fees. This results in a noticeable increase in applications, that over a few years appears as an increase in “selectivity” for the ranking services.
As an admissions officer, do you feel those types of process changes enhance the potential for a more diverse cohort, or are the ultimate members of the class very similar… just with more rejections from the process?
NOTE: @MichaelCShort will be available until the end of day today to answer all your questions. We will have him on for other AMAs in the future. Thanks everyone for participating and make sure you get your questions asked!
Are you a QB Finalist? I’ve worked with a few QB kids; the program is excellent. Same standards all apply for you guys. Here’s one piece of advice for Regular Decision: make sure you intellectualize your essays; connect them to a specific academic idea you want to study. Because often you all have strong personal stories, but forget to make an intellectual move.
For example, I call this the microscope move. Let’s say you want to study psychology. Pick a specific theory you find interesting–hedonic adaptation, recency bias, the paradox of choice–and use that as a lens to analyze an important personal moment.
Check out Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast Revisionist History. If he submitted any episode as a college essay, an admission officer would be dying to admit him. He’s always connecting interesting personal stories to academic ideas. My favorite example of this microscope move is Season 4, Episode 5: The Standard Case. He uses a Jesuit reasoning method called casuistry to make the case for exonerating a Yankee’s ace condemned for using steroids. It’s a beautiful example of how you can apply an academic idea to a fun, seemingly non-academic topic.
Another excellent way is a move I call origin. Trace just about any topic you’re passionate about to it’s origin and you will instantly intellectualize it. So if you have an obsession with . . . SPAM (I’ve never had it) you can write about it. But intellectualize it. What’s the origin story? Do a little research and you can tell the story about how Jay Hormel latched onto the name when a guest announced it at a New Years’ Eve party in August '45. Then you connect it to what you want to study: Chemistry? Launch into a discussion of how Hormel solved the riddle of nonperishable pork. If you’re into history: you march into World War II and Hormel’s discussion of his “Scurrilous File” where he “dumps the letters of abuse that are sent to him by soldiers everywhere in the world.”
A final note on this topic. One of the most common mistakes I see with college essay writing: Students think they can only write about what they remember. Somehow, even the smartest students, stop thinking like students. They turn into someone tasked with writing a letter or drafting an entry in a diary. Don’t rely on your memory. Do research. Learn more about a specific academic idea in your intended field of study you find important and interesting–and then integrate it into your essays.
The 3.6 will make it extremely difficult. But single-digit acceptance rate schools are a moonshot for everyone.
No, I wouldn't try to retract it.
To quote my favorite Stanford colleague: "Numbers matter more than you like, but not as much as you think." They are a necessary, but never sufficient part of your application. We do a quick check of your academics to make sure you meet the high bar for a school like Stanford. But then we focus most of our time on your activities and especially your writing.
Thank you so much for spending time helping everyone! My question is in regards to testing. College websites list their median range for SAT’s/ACT’s but oftentimes that does not corrrespond to the national range listed on Naviance. Which set of numbers should you follow? Also, if going by Naviance, should you submit if you are above the 50th percentile compared to the National scores or the scores of accepted students from your school? Some fellow students vs national scores are very different. Or do you have to make sure you are at least at the 50% mark for both?
Hi Michael and thank you for the really informative Q&A.
My son has an unusual, specific biology-related hobby that is not related to his first choice CS major (impacted at many places) but is research oriented. Do you recall instances where things like this help AOs to remember kids in review round?
My son got his first ACT score (33) very late this fall and missed the early round REA at Notre Dame. He has a 3.9/4.5 but we were advised not to apply TO early since that round is so competitive. What do you think about using the additional information to very briefly explain that ND is his first choice and he did not ED anywhere? Would this be an appropriate question to ask the counselor to run by the admissions office?
Do you have any advice about UC holistic admissions for high GPA, high income kids? What do you think matters most at UCs for these kids who don't contribute to diversity?
Based on my experience, no. I read plenty of powerhouse schools in Silicon Valley and the elite boarding schools of the Northeast. Was there some subconscious bias that I was reading a student who was number one at a top school? Maybe. But there’s definitely no guidance from the admission office telling admission officers to read these schools differently.
Of course, we would often take a bunch of students from some of these top schools. But it was because there were more compelling kids applying from a school like Exeter or Choate or Cupertino.
Some of these schools did have active counselors who wanted to talk and advocate for their students. If I did answer the phone or read an email, I didn’t give it any weight. If anything, I didn’t like that a counselor was trying to get an edge or influence the process.
Most admission officers read by school groups. Based on my experience, I’d say it’s easier to stand-out at a less competitive public than say a top private. But it’s too hard to parse the trade-offs into actionable advice. (I wouldn’t advise a parent, for example, to have their kid attend a weak public instead of going to the best school they could.)
I’m sure people will have different takes on this, but I’m just reporting my experience.
@denalibear I don’t think the bread-and-butter of the process has changed. Dean Shaw is still there. And the admission world is small. For example, the former Dean of NYU admissions was one of the top guys at Stanford. My sense is most of these top schools have similar processes. I’ve reviewed all the key Harvard admission documents–including the full trial transcript for the Harvard affirmative action lawsuit (where there are lots of great admission insights)–and it all confirms everything I teach and have said on this thread. (Harvard does seem to take interviews and rec. letters more serious and have a slightly higher standard for testing.)
But it was ten years ago, and that’s one reason I’ve pointed to the more recent Harvard Reading Procedures for the Class of 2023. I’ve reviewed that doc. carefully–to be clear, that is the key document they give to Admission Officers to train them how to read, it’s gold–and everything there looks similar to my experience. I’ve coached kids for the past ten years as well, and they’re getting into all the top schools. So I don’t think the fundamentals have changed.
We were trying to track down if Stanford counts freshman grades yesterday–I think they have changed that. When I was there, we didn’t.
@MamainMA I’d go with the numbers the college admission office reports for the admitted freshman student profile. There’s no hard rules for submitting test scores. I’m just trying to provide a helpful rule of thumb to consider during this strange admission cycle. And as a general working rule, I’d say it makes sense submitting scores that are over the 50% mark based on a college’s admitted freshman student profile. Definitely submit if over 75%. And don’t submit if under 25%. But it’s hard to give general advice when so much of it will turn on the student and the particular school they’re applying to–so again, not a hard rule. My best advice this year is if you love your scores, submit. If not, don’t, and don’t worry about it.