Full-Ride at State School or No Aid at Ivy?

College Search & Selection
21

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I’m really just disappointed that a top-tier school might be out of reach, since academics are kind of a big part of my identity.


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Ok…you need to understand this. You’re a likely NMSF, is that right? Your score is high enough to make it in your state? Most any school that you’d go to with big NMF dollars will be “academic”. I’m not sure what you think goes on at schools that are “beneath” the top tiers. It’s not finger painting and basket weaving. If you have a serious major, you’re going to have serious academics.

Please understand that at the good schools, the top students are in those hard majors. The top students aren’t spread evenly across all the 100+ majors. No, they’re concentrated in about 10-15 majors. You’re choosing a hard major. Your classmates will be similar to you.

As a NM, you’ll have plenty of big merit opportunities. Apply to the schools that give big money.

And when others make comments about where they expect you to go, tell them you have a Gofundme acct where they can contribute so that you can go to a top school. That will shut them up.


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My friend is currently majoring in anthropology. I am hoping to go to school for computer science, but that might change since I'm not really sure what kind of career I want yet. <<<

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the last thing an anthro major needs is a bunch of loans.

22

Of course it won’t. I’m not really sure which U of M you are referring to, but pretty much all of the states that start with M have great to truly excellent public flagship universities. Just because a school is public doesn’t mean it’s lesser or not suitable for you. I work at a top-tier tech employer and we have TONS of graduates from public universities, especially the public universities in my state (UW-Seattle but also WSU and WWU).

They can still be. I think there’s the common misconception that if a university has a higher acceptance rate that it’s lower quality. But the quality of your education is only partially determined by your peers. It’s also determined by your professors, the resources of the university, its location, the courses and majors offered, the career services, the student activities, etc.

And besides, the quality of your peers might actually be pretty high. The University of Minnesota accepts 44% of its applicants, but on average, applicants scored between a 1270 and a 1500 on the SAT. Minnesota has nearly 35,000 students, and 25% of them is 8,750 - that means more students got a 1500+ on the SAT at Minnesota than Harvard’s entire student body. Nearly half of Minnesota’s students were in the top 10% of their high school class. University of Maryland has similar stats - a smaller student body, but there the number of kids who scored a 1470+ on their SAT is roughly equal to or greater than the entire undergraduate body at Harvard or Columbia or Yale.

I’m not saying that students who scored lower than that aren’t good peers to have who will challenge you, teach you new things, and be equally interested in academics. Because there are MANY reasons that a student who is very intelligent and intellectually driven may have scored lower on the SAT. BUT even just given those numbers, there are literally thousands of students on the campus of a public flagship who are also high-achieving students with goals and profiles similar to yours. In the honors program, you will meet many students who could’ve gone to a top-tier elite school but chose not to for whatever reason.

23

Presumably U of M means Minnesota in this case since a friend went to Wisconsin…

24

(Earlier, OP said he lives in MN.)

25

@Newb3476 the decision is pretty straight-forward. if your parents can afford to pay for the ivy and this will not strain the family budget unreasonably, then go to the ivy.

If your parents have low income then chances are you will get adequate financial aid at most ivies. Yes not all ivies are as generous, but most of them have need based aid. HYP are probably the most generous, followed by Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia and Brown, Cornell are the least generous (but still give out a lot of aid). If you end up getting really bad need based aid from the ivy and you will have to go into tens and hundreds of thousands of debt, then of course choose the state school.

No school, not even Harvard or Stanford or any other elite school is worth getting into a huge debt for if you have a perfectly good alternative where you can get a good education.

26

@Newb3476 You wrote: “I know people expect me to go someplace that’s hard to get into, so looking at a (very accepting) state school feels a bit weird.”

Your definition of “very accepting” is different than that of many others. If you chose to pursue computer science at the U (U of MN), you would be in CSE (College of Science & Engineering). Check out a few quick numbers about CSE:
https://cse.umn.edu/r/cse-by-the-numbers/

As of Nov 2016:
Average ACT = 31.7 (range of 30-34)
Average SAT = 1413.6 (1360-1490)
Top 25% HS class rank = 99.8%

CSE students are no slouches, and the college is well-regarded nationally, not just here.

Just sayin’.

27

If I remember correctly, each college at the U of MN determines their own cut off for the honors college. You may have to be at 34+ for an invitation to the honors college.

28

@Newb3476 There’s been some good, pragmatic advice being offered so far. Couple of other considerations:

  • Validate your definition of "middle class" before deciding you won't qualify for aid. For example, Stanford covers tuition costs for families with income <$125k. So I'd reiterate what others have said...research the Net Price Calculator, National Merit programs, and financial aid guidance for your wish list of schools.
  • Where do you want to live when you "grow up"? If you want to stay in Minnesota, UofM will be very well known and respected. On the other hand, if you have your heart set on living in Boston, you may want to focus on schools that are more well known + have bigger networks in that area.
29

‘In State’ in MN also means U WI as long as you complete the reciprocity paperwork.

Studying CS and being NMS/F, you may want to take advantage of merit opportunities. Visit campuses near, and look up those far that provide very good merit. See what your comfort zone is for many of the college situations - big town/college town, small school/big school, state flagship, differences like that. Keep an open mind. Having high stats is a help in keeping financially feasible as long as you select the schools that are a fit for your circumstances.

30

Computer science? Go to state U. Save that money for grad school. Only Wall Street and a handful of consultants care about Ivies. Maybe MIT and CMU would be differentiators among computer science types?

FYI, my son’s experience experience shows that Ivies have an easier shot with Wall Street-type jobs. But he encountered many from state U and LACs along the way. A surprising mix!

Get great grades and you will have opportunities knocking on your door.

31

a lot depends on the state school, but a full ride at WISCONSIN ??? – heck yes. your friend made the right choice and should not look back.

and a similar deal at Minnesota or a reciprocity state school of similar caliber will likely be the best move for you IMO.

32

IDK what WI offers for NMS. But do look around! Sometimes high stat kids can at least get some options/choices to mull over.

33

Do you know your family’s income? Do you know your EFC? Have your parents given you a budget?

In many cases, Ivies will be cheaper than your state school if your family makes 160K and under. That’s upper middle class by any definition. If your family makes 75K and under, you get a full ride. Of course, the trick is getting in.
You also have three excellent colleges in Minnesota (Carleton, Macalester, St Olaf). Not far, you have Grinnell, a top college with great endowment, which they use to provide excellent financial aid and to ensure students are never bored on campus, really strong academics, especially for STEM. Run the NPC.
Then, you have UMN Twin Cities and U Wisconsin.
All of these will provide a very good education. Visit those that aren’t far, fill out the “request info” form, etc. Show interest.
Once you have your two safeties and 3-5 matches (from the list above? Or others?) you can add as many reaches as you wish and can afford.

34

Of course it depends on the applicant and if there are any ‘hooks’ for specific IVYs, but @MYOS1634 totally unrealistic to weigh in the few ivy slots and the number of students wanting to get those. To me it seems like spending way too much time on a ‘reach’ - a reach due to supply/demand of very highly qualified students accepted.

Since student is NMF/S, should definitely look to see what the schools that provide specific merit for that - available info on CC threads.

Student needs to see what schools are a good personal fit.

If not totally sure on major (right now I understand CS), but seeing a school big enough to accommodate change in major.

Some majors, many schools are good. For example, what is the goal for career? If thinking going on to professional school/graduate school, what are the best ways to do this? Also good info on CC. A BS in CS can have an individual obtain a good career job; many times opportunities to progress on to MBA, graduate technical degree, etc go along later. However those wanting to aspire in a field where you would need to go on to school - have to make certain decisions early on to help with the process.

Is family and student comfortable with having student be a distance from home? Sometimes a great fit will be far away, but that is also something to determine - weigh in on spread sheet.

One wants to include enough on the vetting process, but not too much, and not too few. Be sure to have applications and scholarship applications in to the financially secure places (at least 3), so that when it comes down to the finish line of selecting a school (and a school selecting the student), one can determine what the best decision is.

Use your time well in HS, but pace yourself on the college search/visit/application process. Don’t spend time talking with classmates that are throwing around ‘prestige’ names and where they are going; just let your process work out the way best for you. You can do well where you go - you just want to have the chance to get the best fit for you.

There are summer programs at various colleges for various things. Maybe if a program/school far away really interests you, and they have a one week or longer summer program, the money would be well spent - because it can either eliminate the school from consideration, change the direction on major, etc.

I would recommend you look into http://site.eng.ua.edu/ CS in included in the college of engineering. They offer 3 one week sessions of this program. They don’t really ‘advertise’ it because all the sessions fill up; program has been done for over 25 years. DD was in the program before her HS senior year, and decided which field of engineering. If you attend, you can see the differences between CS and EE (H is EE, so he is knowledgeable on both hard ware and software). Nephew went to another school (instate tech school for him and he was CS - he didn’t have the aptitude/interest in the hardware side of EE). A friend’s DD is EE - she is soaking up both, and has a very good job lined up (she attended a very high ranked/competitive to get in program).

However your parents do need to be a bit realistic about the limitations of student loans - there are finite amounts the student can take as FR/SO/JR/SR. The student loan won’t cover the total cost of room/board. Your parents may not be knowledgeable about the entire process - and most are not. Maybe when you do gather more facts/information, a realistic budget can be set up for you.

UA scholarship for NMS/F is currently 5 years of tuition, first year room/board, and some other things. Other schools/programs may offer more and have a solid program on what you want to study. Engineering at UA (which includes CS) with your stats has an automatic $2500/year scholarship that ‘stacks’ - as long as application is timely.

I personally know some of the schools mentioned in post #32; even with huge endowments, I suspect they will be un-affordable w/o parents willing to sign for parent plus loans.

I know my student is thriving with other students at her campus/program that is well suited to handling a pool of high stat students. DD was not NMS/F, but is now one year away from finishing her engineering degree.

You do need to be very careful in educating yourself and using your time carefully - because you are dealing with the time window for obtaining the great merit on new college student entry after HS. If the chosen school doesn’t work out for you, you will have very limited financially affordable options at that point.

Larger schools often do have honors programs - and some honors programs at various schools have different level of difficulty on acceptance to. DD was in honors program (at UA the general honors program is almost automatic with meeting the criteria - but you do have to apply to Honors College), but decided to double major in her field of engineering (3 extra upper division classes) so she stopped her participation with honors college this semester, but not penalty and no problem.

Some small schools have honors programs that actually make the school be better for particular students, because it can keep the high stat student more academically stimulated.

Feel free to PM if I can be of more specific help.

35

I would echo what has already been said but would add something else. While true, that after OBTAINING your first position it doesn’t really matter where you attended your undergraduate. Your social circle, life-long relationship as well as your world perspective is influenced by where you went to school. I don’t remember whether you said if graduate school is in your current plans but if they are not I would suggest that if you do get admitted to an ivy you should seriously try to take that opportunity.

36

Unfortunately many students from an upper middle class families are in your situation. While I strongly disagree that where you went for undergraduate doesn’t matter, graduating debt free is priceless. A person who was able to get into a top tier school would do just fine in life even if he / she will ended up attending a state school. Good luck!

37

@MYOS1634 My family’s income is above the financial aid cut-off for most Ivies, but my parents will not be helping me pay for college in any way, unfortunately. :frowning: The University of Minnesota is a safety school for me, but based on information I have gotten from my guidance counselor, I feel confident that I could get a full-ride scholarship there. According to her, I may even get money back each semester as there should be some left over. As much as I would love to go to an Ivy, I’m just not sure whether it would be worth it when we’re talking about the difference between a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt and actually being paid extra to go to a state school.

38

You cannot take that much debt. Only your parents can.
Why won’t they help?
Do they understand it’s almost impossible for a student to ‘pull themselves through school’ nowadays ?
I wouldn’t trust your gc regarding such large scholarships. Recently full rides have been cut. Email UMN to ask.
Look at the yola list too.

39

@MYOS1634 Sorry, I didn’t give you all the details in my last post. My parents are about to retire, and they cannot afford both college and their retirement. If I list the University of Minnesota as my first choice school, I am guaranteed a number of National Merit scholarships which would cover my tuition and part of room and board, and I am in the running for a couple of other scholarships which would cover the rest. (If I did not get these, I am close enough to the school that I would be able to commute.) In addition, my grandparents have put away a small college fund through the state of Illinois which will not apply at a private school (or at least, not enough to make any kind of dent in tuition) but will apply at a state school. This is the money I would be getting back if I went to the University of Minnesota. Since I am planning on going to some kind of grad school, I thought it might be a good idea to save this for further education.

It’s just hard for me to tell how important an Ivy League education is. I get the impression from a lot of posts on this site that it is embarrassing to go to a state school rather than an Ivy, and that people are sometimes “looked down on” for doing so. If that’s the case, I think I would be willing to take on the debt for a better school. I’m just trying to get some perspective from people who are no longer in high school, since I feel like it can be hard to see the big picture in the frenzy of trying to get into a prestigious college.

40

Do not fall for any snobbery with UG w/o or with little debt. Advanced degree if interested can go to a ‘better ranked school’ - one with more name recognition, networking, etc.

In engineering circles, it just doesn’t come up. One is looked up to based on performance and ability.

Parents can give you the big picture based on their careers and financial picture. Some parents can afford to spend money on their students’ college selection. We paid for opportunities, but DDs were able to go to in-state schools to programs they wanted to pursue.

With NMF/S, will have other merit options to consider. You will have to decide which is the best match for you after studying the possibilities, applying, and visiting.