And, of course, the key point is those that can afford to be full pay, not those who are expected to be full pay, bc those 2 realities are definitely not the same thing. Meeting Your EFC when it is way more than your family can realistically afford, regardless of full pay or a percentage, puts people in a vastly different categories than those simply considering their choices.
^ It’s precisely because we cannot assess it that I’m not very interested in how many students are on full scholarship due to stacking. I understand that it must enter into some of these situations. How many? We don’t know. We probably can’t know. All I can see is the CDS section H data on the number of merit scholarships and average amounts.
Let’s try to imagine instead a typical full-pay student at Brown or Dartmouth. Maybe he’s an English or Math major from Connecticut, MD, or California. How likely do you think it is that he (or she) turned down a full scholarship from Prairie View A&M, Louisiana Tech, Coppin State, Liberty University, or Minnesota-Morris? I don’t think it’s very likely. I don’t think it’s very likely s/he would have even considered applying to any such schools.
If he’s from Maryland, it’s not unlikely he would have applied to UMCP as a safety or low match. In that case he would have been considered automatically for the Banneker/Key scholarship. And the fact that he’s now at Brown makes it fairly likely, I think, that he did not get it (not the “full ride” version anyway). If he had been offered such a prestigious full scholarship to a rather respected state school like Maryland, in my opinion it would’ve been a no-brainer to take it (especially if his family were at the lower end of the upper middle / lower upper income range).
To me the “full ride state school v. full pay Ivy” scenario just isn’t all that interesting. Where things get interesting is when the cost differences start to shrink. How about the full pay flagship v. full pay Ivy v. $15K merit discount to Rochester scenario? That, to me, is more interesting (and probably – though I don’t know for sure – more typical).
@tk21769, there are people who turn down a full-tuition scholarship to Duke to be full-pay at HYPSM, so I wouldn’t make assumptions.
The Duke Robertson scholarship is a prestigious and rare full ride scholarship (36 recipients from ~60K applicants spread across both Duke and UNC-CH). Nevertheless, yes, I can imagine a few people turning it down to be full-pay at HYPSM. If your family is wealthy enough, cost can cease to be an important factor. Maybe the number who turn it down to be full-pay at HYPSM is more than a few, and even includes some people at the lower end of the full-pay income scale (~$200K/year not $2M/year). I really don’t know for sure because I haven’t seen enough solid evidence to confidently navigate this space.
I’ve seen enough numbers, though, to suggest to friends that if their kid has Ivy-level stats and great ECs, they shouldn’t necessarily assume that a full-ride scholarship will be a cinch. Of course they won’t get one to any of the Ivies (which generally don’t offer merit money at all). They might not get it either from TOSU, UMCP, Penn State, one of the UCs, UVa, or a SUNY. So they still need to play the same reach-match-safety game everyone else does. If they are far from being able to meet their EFC, especially if that EFC is a full $60K/year, they may have to play it harder because their expectations are higher.
For D1, back then , It WAS a cinch, actually. All (or virtually all) semi-finalists from her state were offered the same deal, publicly And she knew she would be a semi-finalist by her scores.
Additionally, IIRC, the state U notified her of admissions (& with scholarship) much earlier than the private colleges did. Possibly admissions there was on a rolling basis. It’s quite possible that she had that admissions & scholarship offer already in hand before the application deadlines of the private colleges. In which case, if she was disposed towards taking it, she would not have needed to apply elsewhere.
But it was long ago, and she had no intention of taking the offer, so I no longer recall the precise timing of state U admissions vs private U application deadlines with absolute certainty.
Her state U no longer gives free rides, or free tuition either. But maybe some of the others I referenced in #181. if they are still playing, also have rolling (or at least early) admissions, and clear criteria for scholarship awards. In those cases other applications may not be necesary.
Of course where the award is less certain and the offer comes too late they would have to apply to other schools also. Moreover, lots of families will be like me and delude themselves into thinking they might get need-based financial aid from the privates, not having been through the drill before, hence apply to them anyway in the hope that the money will work out.
Well there is a related thread here on CC that generated over 20 pages of posts in just 2 days of being posted because a student wanted to go to a school on scholarship vs. go into debt at an Ivy and the parents wanted the opposite.
It seems most of the sentiment is for a student to go full tuition/ride vs going into debt at HYPMS.
It really depends on what you want to study. If your intended major is in STEM, I’d choose the flagship honors program. If you intend to major in liberal arts or get a job on Wall Street or Capitol Hill, then go for the expensive Ivy degree.
I know of many people who went to 2nd tier state schools, joined a fraternity and became successful startup owners through their fraternity contacts.
Is it worth the difference? In-state UVA or paying full freight for Rice, Cornell or Duke? My son is interested in engineering (possibly mechanical and a minor in business) and has also rec’d sizable scholarships at Purdue and Case Western. Money is a factor…he would have to take out loans for about half of the four years. Help…!
If he’s interesting in working as an engineer, there is absolutely no difference in the quality of the education and career prospects between UVA (or for that matter, VT) and the other schools where he will need to take out loans.
Actually I would favor VT for engineering for the breadth of courses, but ABET accredited programs should be relatively equal. And HE could not take out those loans without you co-signing. He is limited to $5500 in direct loans as a freshman.
Yup – HE would be repaying loans upon graduation…that dear old mom and dad co-sign…
So – forget the highly selective schools? Thanks for previous comments…any other thoughts?
@yankeed I was in Cornell’s mechanical engineering program for one semester and decided it wasn’t worth the ridiculous amount of debt. I go to a SUNY school now and the programs are pretty much identical, except Cornell’s is far, FAR more focused on business and entrepreneurship, and I now pay absolutely nothing. If you have any questions about Cornell, feel free to message me! The school was fine, the program just wasn’t right for me.
@yankeed, IMO, no.
In my opinion, no. Rice/Cornell/Duke (full freight) are not worth nearly $40K/year more than UVa (full freight but in-state).
Would Case Western or Purdue be worth some price premium over UVa for an engineering major?
Possibly. Did UVa offer any FA at all (merit or need-based)? How big is the net price difference? Has he compared the mechanical engineering programs in detail (course offerings, class sizes, internship opportunities, post-graduation outcomes, etc.)? Has he done overnight visits to these schools?
IMO, I’m not sure if engineering at CWRU or PU (and I would differentiate between the 2 as one is a big state school while the other is a smaller private with a reputation for being full of quirky geeks) are worth more than UVa. IMO, where you want to work after graduation should be a factor in the decision if the cost is close.
Possibly also industry as well.
Personally, I don’t believe that taking out more than $30K in loans is worth it if you can attend UVa without taking out loans.
Our son is facing a similar decision, although we are still waiting on most of his reach schools. He’s a self-motivated and intellectually curious kid so he applied to a long list of schools. He has been accepted at UCLA ( lowest cost), Grinnell, Macalester, and Brandeis. Still waiting on Ivy’s, a few other reaches, Oberlin and UC Berkeley.
He likes art/design, economics, history, playing rock music, geography, and philosophy. He likes the atmosphere at a big school like UCLA, and we would save about $8k/year if he goes there vs. financial aid at Mac (still waiting on some of the aid packages). However, from what we hear, it is difficult to take courses across the schools at UCLA - so we are concerned about whether he’d be able to explore the interests that are not in the school of arts/sciences i.e. studio art, computer science.
Anyone have experience in this area?
thanks for all the great posts…lots to think about! He’s now been offered Monroe Scholar at William & Mary…also in-state tuition. How to sort through this??
It will be pass substantial aid. By way of example, at Yale, family income at 80k, you will pay literally nothing on tuition and R/B of 64K–including RT airfare and laptop.
My experience coaching teenagers for 17 years is to go where your heart tells you, regardless of the $$. I went to from lower-middle-class to an Ivy with only partial financial aid and nothing has ever been more WORTH IT. I had loans after school but got a fantastic job with a company that only recruits at Ivies and then got into great law school partly because my degree was from an Ivy (huge percentage of Ivy kids at my non-Ivy-but top 20 law school). Again, I got financial aid but took on loans and again, got a great job and paid the loans back. It has nothing to do with what you major in - one of my roommates was a Psych major who went to medical school, the Classics major is a Partner at Morgan Stanley, an Economics major went to film school and makes documentaries, a mechanical engineering went into IT and then Venture Capital, a history major is now on Broadway. The education is one thing, but the experience, connections, friendships forged and sense of community I got attending an Ivy were priceless… worth every dime and would do it again. DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY. If you are happy, you will work, if you work at what you love, you will succeed, if you succeed - you can pay your student loans.