<p>Yes, I am aware of the thread for the engineering schools, but my S is more of a science/mathematics kid who really enjoys the quirkiness/nerdiness of such a crowd. We are looking for "match" options for financial safeties (NMF scholarships). We are not overly familiar with most of the full ride/tuition schools, and so I'm here asking for recommendations.</p>
<p>Just to add another limitation... smaller, non-party state schools would be better options for his personal happiness.... think Caltech (a perfect fit for him, aside from $).</p>
<p>I don’t think the schools that you’re looking for are the ones who give big NMF scholarships. Match and Reach schools generally don’t give big NMF scholarships because they already have enough high stats kids on campus.</p>
<p>Don’t fear the so-called party schools. Who cares if some kids in easier majors across campus have time to party. How does that effect you? Does it affect you if your neighbor down the road spends a lot of time watching TV?</p>
<p>My kids go to a so-called big party school but my kids are in serious majors…math and chemical engineering, so they and their classmates do not have time to party. They live in the honors dorm which is very quiet.</p>
<p>We are looking at UTD for my son. It seems pretty strong in math and physics and they have the best chess program in the country. Auburn might be another good one to consider. Maybe mom2college can name some specific schools? It’s challenging to go through the list of NMS and try to find out the strength of their math and physics departments.</p>
<p>This isn’t just about strength in STEM fields, or I would recommend Minnesota, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Auburn, among others. But we’re talking about the specific social vibe of a technical institute, not just STEM research excellence.</p>
<p>EDIT: While not a big NMF awardee, look at New Mexico Tech. IIRC, their prices are quite reasonable.</p>
<p>sbj - I think we know each other through “think big”. </p>
<p>Yes, it would be nice if the NMS schools were “categorized” to help narrow for those looking for something specific or even some basic info about top majors or whatnot. We are not familiar with the strengths of the particular schools on the list and they aren’t names that jump out to us as being great matches :-).</p>
<p>I loved Dallas as a teenager. We’ll have to look at it. Thanks to both of you for the suggestion.</p>
<p>We aren’t familiar with NJIT, but definitely well endowed with lots of mailings from New Mexico Tech :-).</p>
<p>How much do you think you can spend each year for college costs? If you don’t think you can spend much, then you need to target some of the schools that give HUGE NMF scholarships, but then also apply to a few that give full tuition to see what that second group might do. </p>
<p>What is your son’s career goal?</p>
<p>It may not be a good idea to narrowly focus an undergrad major for a few reasons…</p>
<p>1) Students often change their majors, therefore eliminating schools because they don’t offer a unique major can be a mistake.</p>
<p>2) Narrowly focused majors are often better suited for grad degrees. For instance, someone interested in Biomed Engineering can often get a different undergrad engineering degree (EE, MechE, Chem&BioE) and then to the more specialize major as a grad student.</p>
<p>3) Some of the biggest scholarship schools may not offer some of these more limiting majors, but again, another major can easily prepare for grad school…which many of these more focused majors require anyway. </p>
<p>4) Some of these more focused undergrad degrees (like Bio-med engineering) are rather useless without a grad/med degree, so choosing a degree like EE or MechE (etc) provides the option of not going to grad school and seeking employment right after graduation.</p>
<p>D is in the same boat. We’ve been cross referencing the NM scholarships listed on this site with Rugg’s recommended undergraduate programs for Math. Rugg’s wasn’t at the library or online but made copy from counselor office. Gave us some direction.</p>
<p>What is your D’s math emphasis. My son just got his BS in Applied Math (with a near full ride NMF scholarship) and will begin his PhD in August.</p>
<p>I’ve read two of your threads on this subject, crazymomster. I’m not quite sure that I understand what you’re looking for, but maybe I can offer another perspective on the prospect of full-ride/full-tuition.</p>
<p>There are lots of state schools that offer various stackable scholarships that will ultimately equate to a full-ride. I don’t think state schools usually advertise that fact, since there are typically no guarantees and the stackable free-rides go only to a small sample of accepted students. </p>
<p>So, as others have pointed out, your son will pretty much just have to take his chances when he applies.</p>
<p>If you have an in-state public that is very strong in STEM, and if that in-state public would be a pretty good fit for him in other ways as well, then he should probably apply. (He should be able to actually envision himself going there though, and liking it, should all other options fail. People make the mistake every year of choosing a “safety” that they hate.)</p>
<p>Each of my kids, when it was their turn to apply, chose just one in-state public - the one that felt like the best fit for them. Each kid was offered anywhere from a free-ride to full-tuition at their chosen public. In all cases, their awards were comprised of various stackable merit scholarships. None of their in-state publics advertised the availability of free-rides or full-tuition. But we came to learn that they exist, by stacking. And over the years, we’ve known several other students who have received similar awards.</p>
<p>This advice sometimes applies to out-of-state publics too. There are several OOS publics that will treat neighboring states as in-state, or NMFs as in-state, or recipients of even minor scholarships as in-state. Once your student is considered at in-state rates, that school’s stackable scholarships have a better chance of equating to full-tuition or a free-ride even for an otherwise OOS kiddo!</p>
<p>So, if there’s an OOS public that your son really likes, he should research it to see what the criteria are that would allow him to be considered at in-state rates. If he’d likely meet the criteria to be considered at those in-state rates, there’s a greater likelihood that his awarded scholarships, when stacked, would amount to a free-ride or full-tuition. My kids have likewise been successful with this OOS public strategy.</p>
<p>Texas A&M, for instance, is a STEM public school that offers free-rides to both OOS and IS students. They don’t publish any free rides (that I know of). But over the years, we’ve known several IS and OOS students who ultimately got one. Texas A&M’s NMF awards are “only” $22,000 over 4 years. But in-state tuition, room, board, and books, etc are “only” about $80,000 over 4 years. By the time a student stacks other possible scholarships awarded by the scholarship office, various departments, generous donors, etc, they may well have a free-ride with a stipend! (Obviously, only the most competitive kids get a large enough number of these scholarships to equal a free-ride, but they do exist. I don’t want to imply that any “above average” kid would ultimately qualify. I don’t know your son’s stats. Tippy-top students could be contenders.)</p>
<p>You mentioned Caltech in your original post. I’m sure you realize that the more elite the school, the less likely the student will be awarded massive scholarships – either singularly or in a stackable group. Caltech would be one of those elite schools. But plenty of very good publics do allow for this possibility.</p>
<p>(Pittsburgh is a good STEM public known for its great NMF scholarships, btw. Alabama’s amazing! And there are lots of others! But you said you’ve already read those threads.)</p>
<p>Good luck to you and your son, crazymomster!</p>
<p>Do you have a budget that you’re trying to work within? How much do you want to spend each year?</p>
<p>As mentioned above, the top schools don’t give merit scholarships…well, a small number do, but they generally award a small number and sometimes to hooked candidates becaue they get enough high stats apps without needing to offer merit.</p>
<p>Thank you for your replies. Our budget is minimal, hence the interest in full ride, but that is essentially irrelevant for this thread, as we are trying to find good choice safeties, not first choice reach schools (S already knows what he wants there). S will apply to a full spectrum of schools, so that he has options to consider. S doesn’t want to just choose to apply to University of Podunk who may specialize in journalism, when he wants STEM, just because the U of P offers a full ride. I’m looking for what good choices for safeties would be for S. </p>
<p>The reference to Caltech was more about giving the readers and idea of what a perfect fit school is for S (ignoring $) in hopes that there may be something similar on the full ride or full tuition (with stackable scholarships) that might somewhat emulate his first choice (along with MIT) school.</p>
<p>Does anyone have any particular experience with WUSTL? (Neither full ride or full tuition, but do offer NMF monies and have lots of other big scholarships.) Also, Harvey Mudd… I know they too have some big scholarships and a small NMF scholarship (can these be combined?). </p>
<p>@Crazymomster, WUStL is a great school but like all the top twenty schools it is a “reach” for everyone. They have very few big scholarships, almost all of which require a separate applications process. The good news is that they do have NM scholarships and do meet need. They also will match your “best offer” on need aid from schools that they consider peers. Everyone I talked to there seemed sincere and helpful. Several professors sent me personal notes as the deadline approached, I thought that was a nice touch and made WashU one of the final three I was considering.</p>
<p>Hi, crazymomster.
I can’t tell if you misunderstood my intent or if you were merely restating your point for other reasons, but I did intend to address your son’s search for a good STEM financial safety. That’s why I wrote solely about state publics in my post. They oftentimes make the best financial safeties (whether they’re IS or OOS at IS rates), because their costs are generally considerably lower. Of course, a financially safer bet is NOT a good “financial safety” if it’s not also a good “fit” for your son. So I understand your concern regarding any old “Podunk U.”</p>
<p>However, are you aware that many state schools are excellent STEM schools? Just very quickly, off the top of my head, I can think of great public schools with superior STEM programs in Michigan, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, California, Maryland, New York, etc, etc, etc.</p>
<p>So that’s why I gave you the advice to look at state schools for your son’s financial safeties.</p>
<p>As stated previously, WUSTL is a really great school. It should never be anybody’s financial safety. It’s extremely selective, AND it actually has only a handful of large scholarships that are equally hard to come by. My high school senior was accepted there for Fall 2011. He was NMF, #1 out of almost 800, 2390 SAT, 4.975 W GPA on a 4.0 scale, 4.0 UW, all-state ECs, amazing letters of rec, considerable leadership and community service, etc. He applied for every WUSTL scholarship for which he was eligible (4 or 5 of them??). He got excellent need-based aid, but zero merit scholarships. </p>
<p>Is your son a URM? It seemed to us, based only on this small sample of CC people, that a lot of schools twnd to award their elite merit scholarships to well-qualified URMs, all things being somewhat equal-ish.</p>
<p>Whoops. Using my phone to reply. I somehow, without ever directly hitting “send,” sent that last post! :o</p>
<p>Anyway, I was going to clarify that we had no hard feelings and were not surprised that my son wasn’t awarded any merit scholarships to Wash U. He has older sibs, so we have all come to understand the drill. Merit scholarships from (and acceptance to) elite schools are enormously, and often unpredictably, selective. None of them should ever be financial safeties.</p>
<p>Alabama, btw, while not known for it’s engineering program necessarily, has an amazing research program and honors program. STEM programs might be considered “good enough” (or better!) in your son’s eyes to qualify as a financial safety.</p>
<p>I guess what I’m saying is, don’t count too many schools out. You are looking for a “safety” after all-- a school that will have the programs he needs, fit his personality and various other desires, AND be financially affordable in the end. Just in case.</p>
<p>Oh. And Harvey Mudd. My son interviewed for HM, but eventually took it off his list before applying. Excellent school. Very small and personal. Supposed to be an amazing education. Also NOT anybody’s financial safety. Or shouldn’t be, anyway.</p>
<p>It’s very selective, and as of last fall, if I remember correctly, it basically had only one major full-tuition category scholarship – and that category of scholarship was primarily designated for URMs. It said it right there in the literature and on the website, as I recall. I called their admissions office to inquire more, and the guy said that they do sometimes give it to non-URMs, typically when there’s something else similarly compelling in their background. But generally, their full-tuition scholarships go to URM’s.</p>
<p>(Indiana is another state school with great STEM programs. Really … There are lots! That one just popped into my head!)</p>
<p>Thank you for yet again another great reply (replies :-)). S has stats similar to your S, although much smaller school. No, he is not URM and has nothing “compelling”. We are financially struggling, but we do not have a “sob story”. S is just your average highly qualified white guy. We are in WA. UW offers nothing for NMF, and WSU offers full tuition/honors. </p>
<p>I’m shocked that you (he) did not have luck with the scholarships at WUSTL. </p>
<p>Michigan would definitely be a choice for S, but as I understand it, they have increased OOS, so that they can collect more $. I wouldn’t think S would get much aid from them in any way.</p>
<p>Regarding HM… S was disappointed when he visited that it appeared that his freshman year there would be a repeat of his junior year in HS (current). I’ve heard though that he should be able to “skip” those classes and move beyond them.</p>
<p>I’m guessing that the CA public schools would not be an option in hopes of full anything right? (Well, other than full pay :-))</p>
<p>I’m shocked that you (he) did not have luck with the scholarships at WUSTL</p>
<p>This doesn’t surprise me. WUSTL seems to get enough high stats applicants so it targets its merit for other purposes…such as to get URMs and students from unusual states.</p>
<p>*I’m guessing that the CA public schools would not be an option in hopes of full anything right? (Well, other than full pay :-))
*</p>
<p>UCs are not an option for OOS students who need merit or aid. UCs look to OOS students as money-sources. Their mission is to educate Calif students.</p>
<p>*We are financially struggling, but we do not have a “sob story”. S is just your average highly qualified white guy. We are in WA. UW offers nothing for NMF, and WSU offers full tuition/honors. </p>
<p>*</p>
<p>You need to determine how much you can pay…if anything. </p>
<p>If you can pay for room, board, fees, travel, and books (about $10k-15k per year depending on the school), then you need to focus on schools that will award scholarships that cover full tuition. </p>
<p>If you can only pay a few thousand a year, then you need to look for full-ride or nearly full-ride scholarships (and if necessary, your son can take out a small federal student loan to cover any shortfalls.)</p>
<p>Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it sounds like your EFC or “expected family contribution” will be higher than what you can afford. If so, then keep in mind that merit scholarships will NOT reduce your EFC unless they are sooooo big that they fill all need and THEN cut into EFC.</p>
<p>For instance…</p>
<p>COA = $55k
EFC = $25k
Need = $30k</p>
<p>To reduce your EFC, if you got a full tuition merit scholarship that was $37k per year, then you would have reduced your EFC by $7k, and you’d have to pay $18k.</p>
<p>The significance can be greater at OOS publics that give big merit.</p>
<p>COA = $35k
EFC = $25k
Need = $10k</p>
<p>To reduce this EFC, if you were given a tuition and housing scholarship valued at $30k per year, you’d only have to pay $5k (which you could further reduce by having your child take a student loan for all of that $5k…which puts your “out of pocket” at nothing.</p>
<p>Well, our EFC from estimate calculators fits within our ability to pay, but I’m not sure what will happen when S actually applies.</p>
<p>OK, so merit scholarships are not stackable in order to cover EFC? What/if anything can cover EFC (if your EFC is close to let’s say, room&board, etc and you only receive a full tuition scholarship)? Is it possible to cover that amount without out of pocket expense? I suppose I should have clarified that question sooner, as that is the info I need… how do we “eat into” the EFC (without loans)?</p>
<p>Yeah, mom2ck is right. We really weren’t surprised. This son has older siblings who have been through the process. Our own experience, and anecdotal evidence from that experience, our friends’ experiences, and reading stuff like the posts here on CC, has taught us that selective colleges seem to award their largest, most elite scholarships to URMs, less-represented states, or those with other more significant hooks than the “run-of-the-mill” excellent stats, leadership, all-state EC’s, etc.</p>
<p>Elite-type colleges know that enough kids with amazing stats will enroll without the huge merit awards. They tend to use their highest-dollar merit awards to lure the kids who will round out their incoming classes with more diversity – whether that diversity is in the form of race, gender, less-represented states, super-extraordinary talent (even if it’s outside of academics or their projected major – just something “neat”), etc. The colleges’ goal is to get a really diverse, well-rounded class – not a mere individual with outstanding attributes.</p>
<p>If you read the “accepted students” or “scholarships” posts for the better known, very selective colleges that offer a handful of full-tuition scholarships (like Wash U, Vanderbilt, USC, etc), a remarkable number of those who are selected for their major scholarships each year have well-above average, but not necessarily amazing, stats. They’re often in the 2000-2250 range, say, on the SAT. Or the 31-34 range on the ACT. GPAs might be in the 3.7 to 4.0 range. Their resumes, on CC, don’t necessarily look a lot more impressive than several other kids who applied and didn’t get the awards, but they often seem to be URM’s or from under-represented states, etc. In engineering, female applicants tend to get more (and higher) awards. They’re under-represented. Statistically, in our experience, URMs and other similar hooks, are kind of “over-represented” as scholarship recipients. Their resumes are very, very good. They are very deserving of the awards. (I do not want to start another annoying “affirmative action” thread. And I do NOT intend to imply, nor do I think, that those kids who are chosen are not deserving. I fully acknowledge each school’s capability, knowledge, and right to choose their own recipients.) But often times, to us, the kids who are chosen don’t really look any better on paper than a whole lot of other students who DIDN’T get the awards.</p>
<p>Not only that, but I think that colleges pretty much consider 2000-2250 SATs “good enough,” and 3.6-3.8 gpas “good enough” to flourish, succeed, and improve their campuses via the scholarship recipient’s involvement (which is the whole purpose of luring them with the awards). Someone who can pull in a perfect SAT, a 4.0 unweighted, valedictorian, all 5’s on AP’s, and 5-800’s on SAT subject tests, is obviously a very smart, capable student. That student might also have a bunch of interesting EC’s, talents, service, and leadership. But, I’m not sure that college scholarship committees give a whole lot more weight to the stellar, objective stats (the numbers), than they do to the well-above-average, objective stats. Well-above average is plenty “good enough,” I’m thinking. (These are all just guesses. I don’t claim to “know” any of this. My family’s thoughts on this stuff are simply from our own experiences and observations of others’ experiences. )</p>
<p>And finally, if you read the “accepted students” threads on colleges like Wash U, Vanderbilt, and Rice, you’ll see that students with stats similar to my son’s (and your son’s), aren’t even accepted sometimes, much less awarded major scholarships! Really. Stats like our sons’ are no guarantee of anything … well, except for the schools who DO guarantee admission and scholarships for certain stats! But the schools that do that are not typically the elite-type schools that you’re asking about.</p>
<p>Each time my kids found out they were accepted to one of those schools, they felt honored. There were always several kids, on each school’s threads, who looked a heck of a lot like my kids on paper … and yet, they were not accepted!</p>
<p>We think it’s helpful to go into the process knowing this. That way, your kids can compile really diversified, well-balanced college lists that will hopefully account for all outcomes. Plus, with this in mind, any rejections or waitlists that might come your kids’ way won’t feel too painful. A rejection, pass-over on scholarships, or waitlist is not really a statement of a student’s worth.</p>
<p>I understand what mom2ck is saying about scholarships and EFC’s (and she’s right, of course), but we don’t tend to think of it that way. We just go into the process looking for colleges that (a) have what that kid is looking for in terms of academics and ECs, (b) “fit” in terms of personality and desires, and (c) have the potential for large scholarships and/or affordability in other ways.</p>
<p>We basically ignore our EFC during the application phase (after getting a good estimate of what it is)! :)</p>
<p>You see, it can be kind of irrelevant. Particularly for kids who have the stats that your son has. He has potential for great scholarships SOMEWHERE. AND he has access to schools that will guarantee admission AND huge scholarships for those stats. So, if he can find just one of those that he likes, he can take a gamble on all the others that he really likes and realistically apply, regardless of EFC.</p>
<p>The catch is: he has to like every school to which he applies! He MAY end up having to go there! So that’s the catch. It HAS to be a realistic choice for attendance. If not, the plan falls apart.</p>
<p>If your child is awarded merit scholarships ANYWHERE, those scholarships will always reduce your out-of-pocket costs, period. They may or may not reduce your out-of-pocket costs enough to afford attendance, but they WILL reduce what it costs YOUR child to attend, otherwise known as your cost of attendance (COA).</p>
<p>We adjust for the mysterious EFC-factor by strategically selecting a group of schools comprised of these factors (AND the factors listed above – academics and ECs, “fit,” & potential affordability):</p>
<p>(a) some will be affordable IF the kid gets that school’s big scholarships; </p>
<p>(b) some will have guaranteed large scholarships for their stats – this year it was Alabama and Baylor;</p>
<p>(c) my kids ALWAYS apply to the equivalent of an in-state school or two (because they tend to be cheaper; thus their stackable scholarships can more readily translate into a free-ride or full-tuition) – this year it was Alabama and Texas A&M
(The state schools are an important addition for this reason… At the end of their senior year, the kids will always have a choice of schools, no matter what happens with all the other schools’ offers. My kids will have the guaranteed scholarship schools, or they’ll very likely have the “equivalent in-state” schools. In the very beginning, this son LOVED Baylor – it was actually his first choice out of ALL schools! By Christmas, Alabama was his first choice of his safeties, and one of the top 3 overall. By the time May 1 rolled around, he ultimately chose Texas A&M. All 3 schools were free to nearly free. He had a choice! We think this is very important. Desires change. And choices give one a sense of control. );</p>
<p>(d) if they desire, my kids can add one “dream school” (this year, it was MIT – he was accepted; he got very generous need-based aid; we ultimately decided he could not afford to attend).</p>
<p>The “dream school” is not out of the realm of “possible” for kids with your son’s profile because an NMF kid (or any high-stats kid) COULD win some kind of monster scholarship (like NMF’s corporate scholarships) during their senior year, while awaiting college acceptances, which might ultimately make that school a financial possibility.</p>
<p>So, for kids like mine (and it sounds like yours), if you use this strategy, EFC really is kind of irrelevant. You can worry about your EFC later, after all financial aid offers roll in, as you compare your own personal “Costs of Attendance.” If costs truly are an overriding factor for your family, as they have been for mine, your son will ultimately be choosing one of the “cheapest COA” schools anyway!</p>
<p>You and I are very fortunate, as are LOTS of people on CC, in that our kids have the luxury of choosing schools that guarantee large merit awards. If they can find one of those schools that they WILL happily attend, should all else fail (or even if that’s ultimately the school they WANT to attend regardless of the fact that it’s cheapest – that happens too!), then the EFC really is irrelevant.</p>
)</p>
);</p>