full ride/tuition for STEM schools

[SimpleLife]

<p>It sounds like your son is going to have no trouble at all with Cost of Attendance, considering that you can already afford to pay your calculated EFC. MANY people cannot. Most people think their EFCs are fairly unattainable, it seems to me. I know I cannot afford mine. (But wait … You said you were “financially struggling.” So maybe I’m missing something. It sounds to me like you might have enough savings to afford his college, if your EFC matches about what you can afford. If that’s the case, then you may still be “financially struggling” when he goes to college, but you won’t be struggling any more than you already are.)</p>

<p>Add the fact that your son’s stats are so high to the fact that you think you can afford your EFC, and I think you are going to have very little trouble putting him through college!</p>

<p>Anyway, I said this in the preceding post:

If your child is awarded merit scholarships ANYWHERE, those scholarships will always reduce your out-of-pocket costs, period. They may or may not reduce your out-of-pocket costs enough to afford attendance, but they WILL reduce what it costs YOUR child to attend, otherwise known as your cost of attendance (COA).

To expound with m2ck’s examples:

@mom2collegekids

For instance…</p>

<p>COA = $55k
EFC = $25k
Need = $30k</p>

<p>To reduce your EFC, if you got a full tuition merit scholarship that was $37k per year, then you would have reduced your EFC by $7k, and you’d have to pay $18k.</p>

<p>The significance can be greater at OOS publics that give big merit.</p>

<p>COA = $35k
EFC = $25k
Need = $10k</p>

<p>To reduce this EFC, if you were given a tuition and housing scholarship valued at $30k per year, you’d only have to pay $5k (which you could further reduce by having your child take a student loan for all of that $5k…which puts your “out of pocket” at nothing.

</p>

<p>*(First of all, I think m2ck – who really knows her stuff – meant something like “published price of attendance” in the two examples above, versus COA.</p>

<p>In my little world (I think in many people’s worlds), COA is typically thought of as an individual’s “personal” Cost of Attendance. After all scholarships and need-based grants are taken into account (all ‘free’ money), how much will it cost ME to attend?</p>

<p>If a school charges, say, $40k to attend, and you have $10k in merit awards and $10k in need-based grants, your personal COA for that school is now $20k. Whether it’s in the form of debt (ie, student loans or parent loans), or savings, or whatever’s in your grandmother’s cupboard, it’s going to cost you $20k to attend. Your COA for that school is $20k.</p>

<p>That’s typically what’s meant by COA, I think – what a college will cost YOU to attend after doing the math on each individual financial aid award. In the end, you and your child will compare all COA’s to determine which college is the cheapest. It could be, as it was in some of my kids’ cases, that a $50k school is ultimately as cheap, or cheaper, than a $25k school, after taking all merit and need-based awards into account!)*</p>

<p>So, with that particular concept of COA established …</p>

<p>If a college’s advertised price of attendance is $55k and your son earns a $25k merit scholarship, then his COA has just been reduced to $30k. Whether your son’s EFC is $50k, $20k, or $10k, the price of that school has now been reduced to $30k, at the most, for that son. If your son earns $45k in merit aid for that $55k school, your son’s COA has now been reduced to $10k max.</p>

<p>Then, after merit awards are taken off the top, your EFC determines how much need-based aid may be awarded.</p>

<p>Published Price=$55k
Merit Award=$25k
EFC=$50k</p>

<p>Your COA will be $55k - $25k = $30k. And you’re done. That’s what that school will cost you, because your EFC is $50k, and you owe “only” $30k. Merit scholarships come off the top. You owe less than your EFC. COA=$30k.</p>

<p>Next example, same fictitious school, same merit award …</p>

<p>Published Price=$55k
Merit Award=$25k
EFC=$20k</p>

<p>Your COA will be $55k - $25k = $30k, AND you can expect $10k in need-based grants (free money) from most schools (assuming they compute a similar EFC and they “meet need”). Your EFC is $20k; you supposedly owe $30k; so they’ll likely grant $10k. Now, your COA for that same school is $20k! (That’s why m2ck said that merit aid won’t necessarily reduce your EFC.) If the school doesn’t grant the $10k (they either don’t “meet need,” or they disagree with the FAFSA’s EFC), then you’ll owe upwards to $30k. COA=$20k, up to $30k.</p>

<p>Last example, same fictitious school, same merit award …</p>

<p>Published Price=$55k
Merit Award=$25k
EFC=$10k</p>

<p>Your COA will be $55k - $25k = $30k, AND you can expect $20k in need-based grants (free money) from most schools (if they meet 100% need and agree with the FAFSA EFC). Your EFC is $10k; you supposedly owe $30k; so you’ll likely get $20k in need-based, non-loan aid. COA=$10k, or up to $30k, depending on how the college interprets your need. (Likely much closer to $10k in this example.)</p>

<p>If we consider a larger merit award …</p>

<p>Published price=$55k
Merit Award=$45k
EFC=$50k
Your son’s COA in this case would be $10k.</p>

<p>If EFC=$20k, your son’s COA would be $10k.
If EFC=$10k, your son’s COA would be $10k.</p>

<p>So, YES … merit awards CAN eat into EFC. For sure. They often do, in our experience.</p>

<p>THEN, after all that, your son will be offered the standard Stafford loans, and he can use those to pay for a portion of his COA. Freshman year (unless they increase them, as proposed), he’ll get $5500 in Stafford loans. That $5500 will help pay his COA – in other words, it will come off of the $30k, $20k, or $10k COAs in the above examples. If your son accepts the loan, your non-debt costs will be $24.5k, 14.5k, or 4.5k out-of-pocket that first year. That’s what you’ll have to be able to afford, if you’re willing to allow your son to accumulate the “national-average college debt” over 4 years. </p>

<p>I hope this helps! The way we think of it, and have experienced it, merit awards DO greatly reduce a college’s published price, no matter what. They also eat into FAFSA EFC’s. Lower EFC’s help a student “earn” more grant money, if the EFC has not been already been met by merit awards.</p>

<p>Wishing you the best! :)</p>

[SimpleLife]

<p>

@crazymomster

Regarding HM… S was disappointed when he visited that it appeared that his freshman year there would be a repeat of his junior year in HS (current). I’ve heard though that he should be able to “skip” those classes and move beyond them.

</p>

<p>Re: Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>I am surprised to hear that HM’s freshman year might be a repeat of your son’s junior year in high school. HM is supposed to be notoriously rigorous. Really smart kids are accepted. And a lot of those really smart kids struggle. Maybe it just looks like a repeat year on paper, but in reality it’s more rigorous?</p>

<p>I’ve never had a kid attend, but we’ve read a lot about that school – and the valedictorian from my kids’ school (a large, rigorous public) goes there. It really is supposed to be challenging, in a good way.</p>

[SimpleLife]

<p>

@crazymomster

Michigan would definitely be a choice for S, but as I understand it, they have increased OOS, so that they can collect more $. I wouldn’t think S would get much aid from them in any way.

</p>

<p>But if Michigan really would be a great match for your son, you shouldn’t rule it out just yet. All of my kids ruled it out early-on for various reasons, so I don’t know that much about it – other than it’s a really great, highly-ranked public that is strong in engineering and music, amongst other things. I’ve never really explored its scholarship potential.</p>

<p>If it has good potential for scholarships, and if your son could reasonably be a contender for those scholarships, and if it’s a great “fit” for him, you probably shouldn’t rule it out just yet, regardless of the fact that its “asking price” is higher than most publics. All you should care about at this early stage of the game is what it might (realistically) cost in the end.</p>

<p>USC, for example, is WAY too expensive for us. My son liked it a lot on paper; it seemed like a great match. Even though its asking price is way above my budget, he applied – because they do offer full-tuition scholarships and half-tuition, stackable scholarships. He decided not to visit (to save money) unless they invited him to interview for one of their big scholarships. Well, he was lucky enough to earn an interview for their half-tuition scholarship, the Presidential. Upon visiting in March of senior year (because of the scholarship interview invite), he ended up falling in love with that school! He really, really, REALLY wanted to go there. It suddenly rose above all other choices, with just one visit. I’ve never seen him love any school so much!!</p>

<p>He was hoping beyond hope that he would get bumped up to a full-tuition award, which sometimes happens. If he got the full-tuition award, he decided he would attend. We’d pay just room and board, which was in the realm of "affordable,” with some loans.</p>

<p>He wasn’t bumped up, but he did get the half-tuition award for which he interviewed. Over time, other stackable awards were mysteriously, gradually added, plus some need-based grants! In the end, he had merit scholarships totaling more than 70% tuition! With the added need-based grants, they were dipping into his EFC! (Admittedly, it was USC’s computed EFC, which was a little higher than our FAFSA EFC.)</p>

<p>It was a VERY generous offer from a school that we would definitely NOT consider “affordable,” looking only at their published asking price. The final offer was VERY hard to turn down. But, with his other considerably cheaper COA schools, he ultimately decided he liked them enough to make what was a financially practical decision. He let USC go.</p>

<p>Your son, or someone else in a situation like yours (ie, you think you can afford your son’s EFC), or someone else who valued their love for a school more than they valued a debt-free education, may well have chosen to attend USC if they were in my son’s shoes – and they would have gotten an EXCELLENT VALUE! A fantastic education for a reasonable cost!</p>

<p>That is why, imo, any school that is a great fit that even approaches “financially affordable” due to potential scholarships, warrants further research. My son COULD have ultimately gone to a school that he came to absolutely love (like no other, and we’ve visited A LOT). I told him I would have somehow made it happen after USC added all that extra stuff (though it would have been a painful 4 years), but my son ultimately (thankfully) chose his cheapest COA school, which he also liked a lot all along.</p>

<p>A year from now, your son may well be in a similar position, with the option to attend his “USC,” but not if he rules it out as unaffordable from the start!</p>

<p>(Btw, on a different, but related, topic … you may find that some schools offer your son amazing need-based grants that far exceed your EFC. One elite school offered my son $50k in need-based aid on a $54k published price of attendance! That was enormously beyond our EFC! It would have cost us $4k the first year for him to attend this awesome school! But, for us, that was the clincher – “the first year.” When this son’s siblings graduated from college, who knows what that same university would do to his need-based aid? He needed a “sure thing.” So he declined that school as well. For us, money has weighed heavily on the process. It pretty much has to, unfortunately.)</p>

[sbjdorlo]

<p>Crazymomster,</p>

<p>I’m also curious about Mudd. Did they tell you point blank that your son would have to repeat his junior year? I know they don’t necessarily give credit for either AP or college courses earned elsewhere but I assume that if your son would talk with deans of various schools, they would place him in the appropriate level of course. Is this not true? That would be a big concern for my son, too. I assumed they would place him where he’ll learn and not repeat what he knows or maybe give placement exams. (Assuming he’d get in and we somehow magically came up with the money-ha!)</p>

<p>Sorry to get off the subject. This thread is very interesting for me, too, as my son and I have had a very hard time coming up with safety STEM schools or safety schools at all that would be to my son’s liking besides UTD and I looked up a bunch of math and physics professors on “Rate My Prof” and not too many of them had good ratings. My son said, “That’s ok. I’d still want to go there.” So, we have exactly one financial safety on the list.</p>

<p>It’s really, really hard. People always say to choose your state school’s honors college. Well, first, we don’t have a “state” school that would fit the bill. San Diego State Univ. is the “state” school and as I’ve said in other posts, my son’s already taking the hardest u/g physics course there this year as a junior. Unless he was planning to do his bachelor’s and a doctorate at the same time, it wouldn’t make any sense for him to go there. The other school, UCSD, certainly is on his list but it’s hardly a financial safety. Our income is just such (78K) that we’re too rich to be a Questbridge family (even with 3 kids in one of the most expensive cities in the country) but on the low end of middle class and certainly unable to come up with even half of our EFC.</p>

<p>Money definitely weighs heavily on us. Our best hope is that our son would get into one of the highly selective schools with amazing aid for families like us or that he would win an amazing science competition scholarship this year or next year, or that he’d earn some little scholarships that add up.</p>

<p>Yes, my son is a URM (1/2 Puerto Rican) but based on results for 2011 on the Hispanic parent’s thread, I’m not seeing huge benefits. My son’s stats are similar to the above (2320 SAT, 3 SAT II 800, 800, 730 (will retake the 730 and add one more), 5 APs (all 5s, one 4 and will take 3 more), 4.0/4.87 gpa, will have about 70 college units, has some national awards (physics olympiad semis twice, AIME twice-decent score this year, nationally ranked in chess for age, etc), lots of ECs including tons of music ( professional violin work, youth worship leader, teaching and community service), varsity baseball, work 3 jobs part time, and so on.</p>

<p>Do I think his URM status will help? I don’t know but if it does, I guess it’s similar (though from what I’m reading, it’s less of an advantage) to legacies, athletes, and other students with a “hook”. I seem to be more focused on his weaknesses as a homeschooler and I worry about those. Honestly, I think, I truly think, the essays are going to be a make or break for him.</p>

<p>So, I’m on the hunt for safeties that fit my son’s wants, too, and it’s been hard to find them!</p>

[crazymomster]

<p>@ sbj</p>

<p>It was the tour guides and they didn’t say particularly that he’d have to repeat his high school experiences/class/knowledge base, it was just what they focused on during their tour was stuff S already knows (Python, how to use a lab book, etc). The tour was not aimed at all for the highly qualified/intellectual crowd. </p>

<p>I believe (hope) that S would be able to place out of these classes and while I have not contacted HMC about this, I’ve heard from other HMC moms (on the list we share in common) who say it shouldn’t be a concern. The tour was for the average incoming freshman. It was a big letdown though for my S as he had just toured Caltech the day before and he fell in love and everything they said was just him, picture perfect.</p>

[SimpleLife]

<p>@sbjdorlo,
Do any of California’s bordering states consider CA students at in-state rates? </p>

<p>I’m not at all familiar with California’s schools. Do you have to pick a San Diego area school as your in-state school? State schools in your region are “your” in-state schools, but those in other regions are not? </p>

<p>I’m sure you know there are schools across the country that consider NMF’s at in-state rates.</p>

<p>Texas A&M is one example of a school that gives in-state status to OOS students under some circumstances. It awards in-state rates to any recipient of at least a $1k merit scholarship, as long as Texas students have competed for that same scholarship (plus a few other relatively minor criteria). In-state total published costs are less than $19k. NMFs who name A&M as their first choice currently get $5k a year, plus another $2k minimum, guaranteed. That brings the price down to no more than $12k/year. And there are a whole lot more scholarships available that can further reduce your price. We know of several OOS students, and a few in-state students, who attend for free. Yes, it’s kind of hard to call that a “financial safety,” since you can’t be sure your son will earn a $1000 merit award. But, it could be kind of a “secondary safety” in that it’s not at all unlikely (with his stats) that he’ll be awarded at least $1000 and meet the in-state criteria.</p>

<p>But A&M is just one example of many. There are lots of schools that will consider OOS students at in-state rates for various reasons. And some of them will be more of a “sure thing” in terms of OOS admission at IS rates.</p>

<p>You said your son already has one safety, UTD. As you know, all he really NEEDS is one … if it really is “safe” in terms of admission and finances. If he likes it well enough and can really picture himself there, he’s all set! If all else fails financially (it won’t in terms of admissions, considering his scores, as long as his list is well-balanced), then he can go there, period. But it does help to have a few safeties in the wings. It might help to have a second-level “safety” of sorts, like Texas A&M or something similar, that he could attend at in-state rates (minus any scholarships) if he meets the criteria. </p>

<p>Baylor was a good safety school that my son lost interest in over time. (He used to really love it. It was a case of tastes changing over time.) Point is: it’s one of those schools that has a chart you can follow – if your stats are “a, b, and c,” then you’re guaranteed this much scholarship money. My son was guaranteed a heck of a lot (nearly full tuition, I think), plus he got more later – and your son’s stats are similar (though you didn’t mention NMF, and NMF might have been part of the equation). There are lots of schools that have similar charts – if those charts result in an amount you can afford, and if your son likes the school in question, you’ve got yourself another safety!</p>

<p>Kids like yours and mine (and lots of others on CC) are lucky! If they choose their 1-3 safeties wisely, their worst-case scenario is that they’ll attend a school they like well-enough at a price they can afford! That’s pretty awesome! :)</p>

[SimpleLife]

<p>Hi sbjdorlo,
I see that you’ve been on CC since 2008. Have you already had older children go through the admissions process? Did they do well with scholarships? I would think your son would do amazingly well with those really great scores, great leadership, athletics, music, all that other great stuff, AND URM status! Very impressive! </p>

<p>I’m just guessing here, and you’ve probably already thought of this, but I’d think that he’d get his best scholarship results in schools (states?) that have the smallest Hispanic populations. Of course, the down-side of that is that he might feel a little like a fish out of water in a school in which he is very noticeably in the minority. I guess that will depend on his personality. But I think schools like SMU, Vanderbilt, and Wash U are all trying to improve the racial diversity of their campuses. If your son likes schools like that, it seems like it’d be a win-win for the schools and for your son. He sounds to me like a great scholarship candidate! (And Stanford might be a great choice too!) I can’t wait to hear how he does!</p>

<p>Good luck to you! :)</p>

[SimpleLife]

<p>Hi again, crazymomster, </p>

<p>Your son sounds amazing as well! But, like my son, he may have a harder time catching scholarship committees’ full attention. I hope I didn’t discourage you too much with my earlier posts. I’m betting your son WILL earn a number of great scholarships! They just won’t be as predictable as some people seem to think they are for kids like ours. My son’s scholarship results were scattered across the board. But they were good overall. </p>

<p>One thing we noticed this year, more than in past years with the other kids … this son got a ton more need-based aid than the other kids. It might have been the economy (decreased value of endowments that pay for merit awards?). He got lots and lots of grant money.</p>

<p>If your son is your oldest, that kind of grant money would probably be really great for you! As long as your financial situation stays roughly the same, his grant aid would continue to be roughly the same for all four years (at least that’s the policy at most schools).</p>

<p>For us, the problem with need-based grants is that this son has older sibs in college. And, I hope to take on more work and build up the retirement savings that I’ve been forgoing while I’ve had kids in college. If I earn more money, his grant aid would likely decrease. When his sibs graduate from college, his grant aid will likely decrease significantly. With need-based aid, awards are usually not firm. Merit-aid awards ARE firm.</p>

<p>I really felt like we needed a financially-sure-thing at this point. But if your son is your oldest, and your financial situation is not likely to change much while he’s in college, then huge amounts of need-based grants can only be good! (I mean he earned HUGE amounts – amounts that FAR exceeded our EFC and approached full-tuition and more from several prestigious schools. It seemed that it might have been their way to attract my son without awarding their full-tuition merit awards. But for us, that was just too unreliable.) I hope that helps!</p>

[mom2collegekids]

<p>*Yes, my son is a URM (1/2 Puerto Rican) but based on results for 2011 on the Hispanic parent’s thread, I’m not seeing huge benefits. My son’s stats are similar to the above (2320 SAT, 3 SAT II 800, 800, 730 (will retake the 730 and add one more), 5 APs (all 5s, one 4 and will take 3 more), 4.0/4.87 gpa, will have about 70 college units, has some national awards (physics olympiad semis twice, AIME twice-decent score this year, nationally ranked in chess for age, etc), lots of ECs including tons of music ( professional violin work, youth worship leader, teaching and community service), varsity baseball, work 3 jobs part time, and so on.</p>

<p>Do I think his URM status will help? I don’t know but if it does, I guess it’s similar (though from what I’m reading, it’s less of an advantage) to legacies, athletes, and other students with a “hook”. I seem to be more focused on his weaknesses as a homeschooler and I worry about those. Honestly, I think, I truly think, the essays are going to be a make or break for him.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>What was your son’s PSAT? If his score was similar to his SAT, then he’ll be a National Merit. If so, he’ll be able to find safeties with that. </p>

<p>Is your son going to be a math major, physics major, or both??</p>

<p>His URM status will help at certain schools. Some schools already have plenty of Hispanic kids, but some don’t and surely want more.</p>

[vizsladad]

<p>Hi there. I have a similar kid and spent a lot of time looking at schools. A few comments:</p>

<ul>
<li>Caltech - there is money. The avg award is ~$30k or so. The research money funds over 90% of the school budget, not tuition. If he likes it apply and see what happens. They appear too be very generous. I attended an info session with my son.</li>
<li>Rice - don’t rule it out. It is more reasonable than others and I hear they have some award money. Also visited, good place for a science kid - similar set up as Caltech with the house/college system.</li>
<li>U of Texas - if he likes it they have a “40 Acres Scholarship”. Your son’s grades match the grades of the kid in my son’s class who received it. It is full tuition.</li>
<li>U of Illinois - They have money for a few kids.</li>
<li>WUSTL - have heard they do not have a lot of merit aid available - like most high end privates, they have plenty of kids to pick from with similar stats so they don’t need to offer aid.</li>
<li>Most of the state flagship schools have started an honors program to attract high end kids and many offer scholarships. They may not necessarily be advertised but you should investigate for the schools your son is interested in. You can always apply.</li>
</ul>

<p>Your son may be an URM somewhere (and probably most places) so don’t rule that out, it is huge to some schools. </p>

<p>Go visit this summer, make sure they know you are interested and apply in September. The money can go early at some schools.</p>

<p>Good luck, you have a great hard working kid and he will end up somewhere wonderful</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

Caltech - there is money. The avg award is ~$30k or so. The research money funds over 90% of the school budget, not tuition. If he likes it apply and see what happens. They appear too be very generous. I attended an info session with my son.

This is no longer true for freshmen:
[Frequently</a> Asked Questions - Caltech Caltech Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/faqs#scholarships]Frequently”>http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/faqs#scholarships)
“In order to strengthen our need-based financial aid program even further, we have redirected our freshman merit-based scholarship programs to our need-based financial aid program, effective with the class that entered in September 2009.”</p>

<p>@sbj: Your son has a very unique situation. HMC is a great college and might be a good fit if your son really wants a small LAC atmosphere. However, the simple reality is that with 70 units of college credit as a junior - including upper level physics courses - your son is in a position to benefit greatly from the availability of graduate-level courses. If the information you have posted is accurate, he is so far ahead of the curve that he will not be a remotely typical undergrad student.</p>

<p>He can apply to HYPSM and perhaps receive good financial aid. UCB, UCLA, UCSB, and UCSD are all very strong, though I don’t know the current financial situation in CA very well. The 40 Acres Scholarship at UT-Austin is incredibly competitive, but I think your son has as good a shot as anyone and that would be an awesome opportunity.</p>

<p>Also look at U Maryland (Banneker Key Scholarship), SUNY Stony Brook, U Minnesota, and U Arizona.</p>

[plumazul]

<p>Any high stat student interested in the sciences should definitely consider Maryland. Maryland is on a mission to become the number 1 public research university in the nation and is making progress every year toward that goal. </p>

<p>@sbjdorlo, if your S is interested in math and physics, have him read the info at the following links, </p>

<p>[Physical</a> Sciences Complex | CMNS](<a href=“http://www.cmps.umd.edu/psc.htm]Physical”>http://www.cmps.umd.edu/psc.htm)</p>

<p>[UM</a> Gets $10.3 Million in Stimulus Funds for Advanced Quantum Lab :: University Communications Newsdesk, University of Maryland](<a href=“http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=2058]UM”>http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=2058)</p>

<p>[Banneker/Key</a> Scholars - Honors College - University of Maryland](<a href=“http://www.bannekerkey.umd.edu/]Banneker/Key”>http://www.bannekerkey.umd.edu/)</p>

<p>I am also Hispanic, and was offered admission at some of the finest universities in the nation. I chose Maryland and I am extremely happy I did. I attend on a FULL RIDE scholarship. About 150 full scholarships are offered to the top applicants every year. Also, unlike most top schools, Maryland allows unlimited transfer of credit (AP, college work as a high school student, etc.) so this work is not wasted as it is at other top schools. I received 56 credits when I enrolled and will have senior standing after next fall(my third semester). Students may choose to graduate early or as I am doing, graduate with dual degrees. </p>

<p>Oh, as a bonus, the campus is absolutely beautiful! For me, Maryland has been a dream come true.</p>

[sbjdorlo]

<p>Dear all,</p>

<p>First, thank-you for the great information! This is so helpful as I, like crazymomster, try to help my son find colleges that “fit the bill”, so to speak. </p>

<p>Crazymomster, I can definitely see why Caltech would be a better fit for your son based on what you shared. Personally, I think your son would be a shoe-in there. I think Caltech is a school that bucks the tide and gives no thought to affirmative action. They go after the best students and don’t consider race or ethnicity, at least that’s my understanding. I admire them and I’m sure your son would get an amazing education there!</p>

<p>My son said he doesn’t want a tech school because he’s interested in so many things besides math and physics. He loves writing, he’s looking forward to taking several college history courses next year and he’s even semi-joked about majoring in philosophy. So, a LAC is a better fit for him as he may, indeed, end up double majoring in a tech and non tech area. He really doesn’t know…</p>

<p>His PSAT was 225; that’s high enough to go NMSF but I’m unclear on what it takes to actually get merit money. I know there are plenty of high achieving students in Ca. that have scores much higher than my son. He did apply for a corporate scholarship through my husband’s company that’s valued at 6K and we can dream that his research this summer will get entered into a science competition and win something! LOL</p>

<p>What is the University of Maryland? Is that College Park or Baltimor County? My son’s been to Baltimore. He went to an awards ceremony at Johns Hopkins Univ. in 8th grade and didn’t like Baltimore (well, he liked the baseball stadium). It seemed too big, cold, and scary at the time but he’s older now. I do know that one of the Maryland schools has a great chess team and at one time, they gave full ride scholarships to students with chess ratings of 2000+ (my son has that) and SAT scores of 1400+ (obviously has that). Not sure if they still do that or which school that is but I did see that UMCP is pretty selective and the average math SAT scores are pretty high. Maybe worth a second look?!</p>

<p>Ok, so the things about Harvey Mudd that are great: Yes, it’s true my son has taken a lot of college math and physics and that his current physics course uses the same textbook as a junior level course at Princeton. However, we were thinking that there’s enough depth and width in the courses that there would still be other courses he could take. Given that my son is probably going to major in math and not physics, he might only take another couple of physics courses. He could still take quantum and nuclear physics. (He’ll take optics at the state uni. in the fall but that’s all) There seem to be lots of math classes he hasn’t had-number theory, discrete math, real analysis II, partial differential equations, probability-and I would think their offering is wide enough. Also, being able to take courses at the other colleges in the humanities is appealing. Mudd also apparently has a few Christian professors which is unusual and appealing to my son. Lastly, it’s only 2 hours away so my son could drive home more often. That has appeal financially and personally since our son is close to us and his siblings. </p>

<p>OTOH, he was very pleased visiting two east coast schools and thinks he would enjoy the lifestyle, climate, and culture of these types of schools. </p>

<p>The negative to a Maryland would be the size. He’s on the UCSD campus often and feels it’s too big. I think he would feel lost. At this point, he thinks he would prefer a small to medium campus. Maybe being in an honors program would help make it feel smaller. He definitely wants to be on a campus with other students who love to learn. At SDSU, he gets quite the opposite feeling. The kids in physics are fine but the rest of the campus doesn’t feel good to him.</p>

<p>Texas A&M and UT Austin both have some great qualities but again, because they are so large, I’m not sure my son is interested. Is there ever a way to get a “small campus” feel from such a large campus? I’ll look into the scholarship mentioned at UT Austin, though. Thank-you! Several years ago, we were really looking at various chess scholarships but my son hasn’t been playing enough and progressing enough to get the top scholarships. His close friend, same age and they do many events together, is 200 points higher than my son and a chess master now. He would have a much better shot at those scholarships. My son would need to combine academic and chess scholarships. I don’t know if Texas A&M has any but there are a number of Texas schools that have them.</p>

<p>The UCs are really financially out of reach unless there are some great merit scholarships. UCSD is doable because he’d be a commuter. Really, he could just transfer there if that’s what it comes down to. We know a number of people who’ve done that. Because we’re not poor but not rich, the other UCs would probably leave us with more than we can afford. Our EFC is around 10-11K but we think we can pay about 5K. Princeton seems to come in very close to this using their calculator. It’s a crapshoot but my son will definitely apply to three of the top schools and maybe one more.</p>

<p>I haven’t heard of California having a relationship with schools in other states. I grew up in Tucson and I’m pretty sure U of A would not be a good fit for my son unless he absolutely knew he wanted to do optics.</p>

[sbjdorlo]

<p>Sorry! I see that Maryland is UMCP. Not sure where that is…</p>

[sbjdorlo]

<p>Simplelife,</p>

<p>Your posts are very informative. I did join CC in 2008 but I forgot all about it until an online friend suggested it recently so I’ve just begun posting in the past 4 months. :-)</p>

[vizsladad]

<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/annual_report.pdf&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Hi there. This link lists where all the NMF kids end up. Some end up there for the scholarships, some don’t. It is very informative if you spend time and look through it.</p>

[mom2collegekids]

<p>His PSAT was 225; that’s high enough to go NMSF but I’m unclear on what it takes to actually get merit money.</p>

<p>Well, it depends on where he applies.</p>

<p>If he applies to schools that give merit to all NMFs, then if he becomes a NMF, then he’ll get those merit scholarships.</p>

<p>UCs don’t have NMF scholarships.</p>

<p>USC gives half tuition merit scholarships to accepted NMFs (however, being a NMF is not an auto acceptance to the school) </p>

<p>There are some schools that give big merit, but for ACT or SAT scores and strong GPAs. Some are “assured merit scholarships” (if you have the stats, you get the merit)…and some have competitive merit scholarships (if you have certain stats, you’re put into a pool and then the school picks some students to award the merit scholarships.)</p>

[Chardo]

<p>

However, are you aware that many state schools are excellent STEM schools? Just very quickly, off the top of my head, I can think of great public schools with superior STEM programs in Michigan, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, California, Maryland, New York, etc, etc, etc.

</p>

<p>New York has a public school with superior STEM program?</p>

[Chardo]

<p>

Sorry! I see that Maryland is UMCP. Not sure where that is…

</p>

<p>College Park is in the Washington DC suburbs.</p>

[LuvMidWestSchool]

<p>I agree with SimpleLife, you just have to prepare your kids to have different perspective and different outcomes. </p>

<p>A bit off the topics, but response to others.</p>

<p>National merit (SF, F and scholar) - it is initially selected from your PSAT done during your junior year. At our public HS, year after year, typically 1/2 the graduating seniors are NMSF, and by around April-May, about 10+ kids are finalists. A few years ago, my older son was also a NMscholar, but so what, there is small amount of money (at most 2000) with these titles. That amount is perhaps enough to pay for books.</p>

<p>On USC - extremely generous with NM titles; However even without those titles, one neighborhood kid who didn’t made NMSF, came from families of doctors (rich family) was granted USC 4-year trustee full scholarship after the interview. He was a very smart (STEM) kid just happened to have a bad PSAT score, I think he told us he forgot to put the answers down on the scantron…
My point is that they don’t always focus on URM or poor kids, nor NM titles.</p>

<p>On Harvey Mudd, its admission is more selective than MIT if the applicant is male. This is partly due to its small size and the pressure to admit more female. I’ve known several MIT admits who were rejected or waitlisted from Harvey Mudd. And, Harvey Mudd did not get anyone off the waitlists in the last 2 years.
As to Harvey Mudd’s academics - extremely tough and challenging. Getting a GPA of 2.9 is good. I don’t know about repeating junior classes - but redoing a more in-depth Calculus and Calulus-based Physics (they start off with special relativity prior to Mechanics) those are NOT easy classes. Most students have to form groups to tackle the homework and projects. They do expect you to be on campus during the break and weekends to work on problems with your peers…(very similar to Olin’s project concepts, except Olin’s core classes are not as strong as Mudd) Mudd also repeatedly stated that this school is NOT for pre-med students due to grade deflation.</p>