Full ride vs Ivy

<p>While we still await decisions from Ivies this week (no guarantee of admissions but D had strong letters of recommendations and strong scores and GPA) wondering how to assess a full-ride as presidential scholar to UCincinnati in their honors business program (5year co-op, international travel, leadership development,business mentoring) against undergraduate finance degree from Wharton. While I know Wharton is tops, she would graduate with no debt, $50k earned while co-oping, a great job and money in 529 to fully fund an MBA or law degree. Is it worth it to pass up a full ride for an undergrad degree at Wharton (we'd get no aid and would have to pay it all from 529 funds plus) </p>

<p>pretty much you know the answer already. if you’re very wealthy, go to Penn. if you’re like 98% of us, go to Cincinnati and kick butt. your child may not work wall street right away, but so what? If she works hard and well, she’ll do just as well as the wharton grads.</p>

<p>It amazes me that someone who wants to work in business (your daughter) wouldn’t see the value of having that money to invest, spend on an MBA program, or have to use for a startup or something after college. It would take a long time to recoup whatever ROI you think she might get from a Wharton degree. Remember too that EVERYONE at Wharton is super-competitive and most are also worried about the same ROI issues.</p>

<p>Do you have the money? Then it’s a family decision - where would you rather invest the money, what will be the best ROI, etc.
If it means taking on loans, then UCincinnati.</p>

<p>Now, frankly I do think the Cincinnati offer is fabulous; and Wharton is mostly useful if your daughter is interested in Wall Street. In most other careers, it really wouldn’t matter.
However, Wharton functions within a professional world where prestige and brand are very important (some doors will not be open for Cincinnati graduates that Wharton opens. I really don’t like it but that’s the way it seems to be for now.) But if those doors aren’t even interesting to your daughter, it doesn’t seem worth it. Lastly, in her eyes but also in yours, are the intangibles worth it? note that there are many negative intangibles at Wharton too (competitiveness of the student body, for instance.)</p>

<p>At the very least, they’re not worth more than the federal loans in debt ($27,000 total for all 4 years).
On the other hand, are the intangibles worth spending the college fund? This is a very personal decision.
Sidenote: your daughter may wonder why you let her apply to Ivies if you didn’t mean to let her go, knowing full well you would have to pay full freight. Those applications mean she slaved hours and hours and hours that would certainly have been better spent otherwise.
On the other hand, if a college’s not affordable because the financial aid package is not what it was supposed to be or you didn’t think you’d have other expenses, that college cannot on the table. It’s a matter of whether you have a choice ( PLUS loans aren’t “having a choice”).</p>

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<p>I think so.</p>

<p>While I won’t deny that getting recruited to Wall Street immediately after undergrad is easier from Wharton than Cincinnati (assuming that’s her goal), it’s not impossible by any stretch of the imagination for a well-supported student. Honors programs like this usually invest very heavily in the mentoring and internship opportunities. A student with excellent, paid-for international experience and good solid internships has a great shot at working on Wall Street after college.</p>

<p>But, it’s like someone else said - let’s say that your daughter doesn’t immediately work on the Street. If she gets excellent grades and undergraduate experiences and works a great other job for 3-5 years after college, she can go to Wharton for graduate school - and you can use the money you have saved and your family resources (plus whatever additional monies you will save in the next 7 to 10 years) to send her to whichever MBA program she wants, close to or completely debt-free! Students at top 10 MBA programs come from all kinds of undergraduate schools.</p>

<p>@sally305 - You stated, “It amazes me that someone who wants to work in business (your daughter) wouldn’t see the value of having that money to invest, spend on an MBA program,…”</p>

<p>I am not too sure this is a fair criticism given what the OP posted. There is still a comparative value assessment to take - it is possible the money to invest could legitimately be worth less to her D than the Wharton degree. That is a valid comparison to think critically about. </p>

<p>@Parent2333 - Good luck to your D and if she has this decision, it is awesome either way. But, here is my 2 cents.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The issue not being taken into account is after Wharton there is no need of business school. So, if after Cinn the student needs to go to business school, then it is a wash. The money gets spent either way. </p></li>
<li><p>It can also be seen as a loss to go to Cinn because of the additional 2 years of business school required after. Time is something you can never get back.</p></li>
<li><p>Since the money will be spent either way, the actual comparison to take is whether over the four years the return of the investment money is going to be greater than the Penn degree? I think that answers itself. The Penn degree returns forever; the investment money could go nowhere or be lost. </p></li>
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<p>I am done with college 25 years ago, but if it were me, I would go to Penn if money were not an issue. I see the value in the Penn degree and the reduction of two years in school as a better tradeoff, especially if the money will be spent anyway, whether now or four years from now. </p>

<p>IMO, Wharton is the only Ivy worth giving up the full ride for. With that said, every applicant to Wharton has strong LORs, Grades, & Scores. It is a very self selecting program. I wish her the best of luck, but the odds are not in her favor. (They are in no one’s favor)</p>

<p><a href=“http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/22/wharton-mba-2013-the-class-the-loans-fell-on/”>http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/22/wharton-mba-2013-the-class-the-loans-fell-on/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Don’t mean to discourage you in anyway whatsoever, and I am completely unaware of your current financial standings. I would try to contact a Wharton alumni and cold-call them or e-mail them to see what their own take on the matter would be? Usually alumni can offer great advice.</p>

<p>What was your discussion with your kid prior to applying? </p>

<p>While its great you are asking opinions on a forum, you may want to cross the bridge when you get there. </p>

<p>Good luck to your kid.</p>

<p>Wharton is really hard to turn down for anyone who wants a business education. IF she gets in, it is worth giving Wharton a long careful look before going elsewhere. </p>

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<p>But that was my point–that she should do the comparison. And she should look at the outcomes for the very bottom tier of Wharton graduates, just to be sure. </p>

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<p>This is from the Wharton website. It’s really impressive, but if I were the parent I would be worried that my child would be in the 11 percent that was either jobless upon graduation or needed another degree. </p>

<p>@sally305 - Thanks for the clarification. Your statement, which included the word “amazing” read as if you were surprised the daughter was not considering this. However, there is nothing in the OP’s post that said her daughter is not doing or did not do such as comparison, so there was nothing to be amazed about that I read. Therefore, I misunderstood. </p>

<p>As for the 11% thing - no risk, no reward is the first thing that comes to my mind. I do not dwell on the low end (11%). The 88% is what I see - worth the risk given that number.</p>

<p>Not every person lives in my risk world - I tell my kids, “Aim big or come home and save me my money.” But that’s just me.</p>

<p>3223, In a few days you’ll know whether this is a decision that you and your daughter have to make, so try not to over analyze until you have all the information.</p>

<p>Only you and your spouse can judge what is the right financial decision for your family. We all want to avoid debt, but sometimes it’s a reasonable risk. Your assets, savings, income, age, status of other children etc etc would be major factors in deciding how much you could devote to your daughter’s education.</p>

<p>Most likely your EFC at other ivies and super-selectives would be the same as Wharton. Did she apply to any other schools that are generous with merit aid?</p>

<p>I like the concept of Cincinnati’s co-op program and believe that an ambitious student could take this opportunity and excel. But for business, especially Wall Street or East Coast consulting, it’s not going to provide the same entree as Wharton (or some of the other super-selectives) either for jobs or for graduate school admissions.</p>

<p>Perhaps you could ask Cincinnati’s business school for more information about where some of the graduates have ended up – which firms and which graduate schools. Also, your daughter may want to consider where she wants to live and work eventually. Take a look at some of Cincinnati’s co-op and internship programs to see if they are leading in the direction she wants to go.</p>

<p>One other factor to consider here is something not mentioned, P&G probably recruits heavily out of Cincinnati, particularly honors students, since it is their hometown, and if she’s more interested in management than Wall Street, starting at P&G is a great way to start a career. Lots of high level managers and consultants are P&G alumni, you’ll be hard pressed to find a better company to work for if you want to go into management.</p>

<p>^^ True for P&G. However, a contrary point of view is why focus and limit yourself hoping for one company because no one knows the future. Many a airline pilot for Eastern and Braniff and high executives at General Motors people thought exactly as the above. And now they have nothing after years of working. It is one thing to really want to be in an industry; it is quite another to focus your decisions around one company that might be there or not. </p>

<p>I personally made the choice of a second tier law school over a first tier for financial reasons. The school I went to provided me with incredible opportunities - paid summer fellowship, national moot court team, federal judicial clerkship, and a wall street job offer post-graduation. I worked my tail off, knowing that graduating lower than in the top 5% would make it too difficult to compete with grads from top tier schools. My choice of school has never held me back in my career due to my accomplishments while in school. </p>

<p>Were there certain partners who worked only with interns/associates from their alma maters? Sure. My goal was to show them how good I was and to get them to work with me. This was a challenge I relished because I was that kind of kid. Maybe someone else would have felt defeated, but I’m sure that person would have faced similar challenges to distinguish himself among his driven classmates at a top tier school.</p>

<p>Today I work in Finance. While an undergraduate degree from Wharton opens doors, most careers in this field require an advanced degree to move into upper management. Many employers will pay for an MBA. A CFA is the desired credential for analysts and, because it is attained largely through self-study, it levels the playing field among recent graduates regardless of school ranking. </p>

<p>Your daughter should pick the school she believes she will excel due to the support of faculty and peers - where she fits best. Her passion and drive will count for much more than the school on her diploma.</p>

<p>awcntdb, your logic is confusing to me. Lots of kids dream of working for a certain company but end up somewhere else. A kid who hoped to work for Google and positioned himself for a career there but ended up at a smaller tech company would have the same marketable skills. And by the way, my father was an executive with Eastern Airlines when I was growing up. He relocated our whole family from New York to Miami for his job. Yes, the company went under, he lost a lot of his pension, and he had to start over in middle age. And guess what–he was fine. Don’t people do this all the time anyway? Adaptability–in college admissions, careers, relationships, whatever–is a life skill that some people here don’t seem to value as much as they should.</p>

<p>@sally305 - I did not say people should not do that if they want. I was stating another way of looking at it.</p>

<p>I do not see having a dream company any different than having a dream school that one becomes attached to. The dream school threads discuss ad nauseum the perils of doing everything to try to get into one school. </p>

<p>Adaptability is one thing, but taking a fundamental life decision at 18 for a particular company just seems a bit misguided to me. But then again, I do not worship any company like that, so I admit not understanding it. </p>

<p>I felt Wharton not only prepared me very well for my career but also helped me confirm I made the right career choice post graduation. I have no regrets about attending Wharton; it prepared very well for career challenges I have faced and it was a life altering experience for the better. An advantage of Wharton over many other schools is the breadth and depth of its offerings.</p>

<p>Cincinnati isn’t in the same league at all as Wharton. Someone who can get into Wharton undergrad should be able to get a merit scholarship for schools like BC, Indiana, and USC whose undergraduate b-schools are far more respected than U of C’s.</p>

<p>The old adage is that nothing is impossible but breaking into Investment Banking, Sales & Trading, or Management Consulting from Cincinnati is close to it.</p>

<p>Be wary of debt of course but please consider alternative options so you don’t sabatage your career dreams at the tender age of 18.</p>