<p>Soghum, your statement “It would be lunacy for someone of the OPs academic potential to take a degree in ESL, even if the initial aim was to teach English as a second language” tells me a great deal about you. I’m guessing that this student is the polar opposite of you and your view of the world and that Baylor would be, by far, his/her best choice. Geez, elitist is the first word that comes to mind…</p>
<p>Yeah, it says that Sorghum is realistic about the fact that one can pick up an ESL credential without devoting 4 years of college to it, and that time might be better spent on something else in order to maximize the student’s long term career and life options.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with striving for excellence. There is nothing wrong with thinking that a student with a lot of academic potential should strive to make the most of it. Call it elitism if you want.</p>
<p>There is nothing elitist about suggesting to a high potential kid (or a high potential adult for that matter) that it’s OK to evaluate options outside your comfort zone whether geographically, culturally or religiously. If this kid doesn’t get into Yale or the other out of state options, he’ll head off to Baylor and do just fine in life. If he gets into one of these other schools and decides not to go- for whatever reason- again, he’ll do just fine in life.</p>
<p>But why decide at age 17 or 18 that you’re going to commit to this option before exploring anything else? </p>
<p>I have no problem with kids deciding that they want to be nutritionists or nurses or occupational therapists. All fine professions. But I wouldn’t tell a kid who clearly has the intellectual bandwidth and all the other qualities required to become an MD that he should “settle” for a para health career because becoming a doctor would require being an elitist, going outside his comfort zone, being part of a competitive weeding process (which I guess defines elitism in medicine) etc.</p>
<p>But as noted, Yale may be decidedly inferior for the kinds of things the OP wants to do.</p>
<p>I’m tempted to say Baylor - take the money and run.</p>
<p>But it does not hurt anything to keep your options open. Make Baylor your “Plan A”, with possible change if you get a terrific FA package somewhere else that you also like.</p>
<p>All I can do is relay how our situation played out; DD had similar stats to yours, was accepted into 1 top 15 National University, 1 top 30 National University, 1 top 30 National LAC, 1 top 115 National University (local) and 1 top 5 Regional University (in the latest USNWR). We had choices (the most important thing!) and money was a factor, but not an issue.</p>
<p>After careful consideration, DD chose the University closest to home and that offered the most merit aid, saving $100,000 over “Prestige U”. After 1 semester, this has turned out to be a phenomenal decision for all the right reasons, besides financial. The convenience of being 40 minutes away?? I can’t imagine anything else. From the quick HS homecoming trips home, to the random overnight due to seasonal cold/flu, to the “can you run me over my winter coat for this unexpected cold snap?” The ability to to that? cannot be overstated. Yet she’s far enough away to have independence and privacy. Coming home every 2 to 3 weeks for some reason, seems to be the routine and it just would NOT happen if she was a plane ride away.</p>
<p>One of her and our anxieties was; by being on the upper end of the “high achiever” scale, would she be challenged if not going to the CC definition of “Prestige U” That’s a tough one! Especially when going through it. The last thing you want to do is to limit your future by making a bad “fit” choice (disregard major for a moment - I personally think majors driving college choice for most freshman is silly, props to @blossom).</p>
<p>All the usual arguments were levied; surround yourself with like minded high achievers, push yourself! blah blah - this turned out to be a VERY shallow argument. College truly is what you make of it! You will find your level no matter where you go. Trust me! adjusting to college is hard, throw on college level CORE requirements (i.e. generals) that may not capture your interest? plus new people? new surroundings? you will be challenged! Academically, Socially, Practically, Conceptually, Competitively… you get my point.</p>
<p>DD *should<a href=“not%20guaranteed,%20yet”>/i</a> make the Dean’s list this semester, and she is challenged! She has also uncovered interests she didn’t know she had. Excels in courses and areas of study she hadn’t experienced before, and has plotted career choices and Major/Minor options she couldn’t fathom last year at this time. And that’s just after 1 semester! consider what is coming next? And this happens at a school outside of the top 100! :eek:. All this, and she gets to come home whenever she wants - Selfishly, I get bonus DD time today as she wants to get picked up to do some studying for finals from home, before rejoining her study group on Monday. I think its about getting some good “sleep time” in her own bed before finals 
with some of Mom’s home cooking! but frankly, I don’t care what the reason is. And DD is as happy as a clam and has never once mentioned the schools she turned down.</p>
<p>The point is, I know its hard to get over “Prestige U” especially in this CC Bubble and whatever else your circle may be telling you. But there is life outside of it! And it is good :)</p>
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<p>Yes, if “mission trips” is all he wants to do. Otherwise, it is very difficult to make that argument.</p>
<p>In any case, I hope the OP keeps his options open.</p>
<p>To the OP: the following does not apply to your situation as Baylor has a respectable academic reputation as far as I’ve heard. </p>
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<p>Not necessarily. The HS classmates who ended up attending the local CUNY colleges back when it was at its nadir in the late '80s/early-mid-'90s due to grades and/or finances ended up transferring out to elite colleges like Reed or Columbia because they were really underwhelmed academically. It’s really bad when the institutional bureaucracy had such a LCD mentality like most US K-12 schools that above-average or better students felt they had to transfer out to find an environment which provides advanced courses for them to stretch themselves and a critical mass of students who aren’t struggling to get Cs in the same courses they’re getting A/A+s with little/no effort. </p>
<p>Many former employers I’ve had would also not necessarily agree with the above. They’ve all had some colleges/universities whose graduates are not considered because they were burned by too many past alums from such institutions or there’s a general perception the graduates concerned had issues demonstrating basic written communication and math skills(arithmetic…not calculus). </p>
<p>One former employer would only hire undergrad b-school majors from elite undergrad b-schools like Wharton, NYU, Berkeley, UVA, etc for those very reasons.</p>
<p>^I have heard of this (albeit quite dated like you state; 25 years ago). Any school in the top 10%? (that’s approximately the top 400 ranked institutions) offer plenty of challenge for high achievers, and wonderful marketplace credibility for undergrads.</p>
<p>"scholarships will leave me with out of pocket costs of around 3k/year. This is super cheap, and naturally, I’m thrilled to get this kind of opportunity.</p>
<p>I recently visited Baylor (it’s only 2 hours away), and I really, really liked it. " - atxnickg</p>
<p>Go to Baylor, dude! Congtats.</p>
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<p>Actually, some of the colleges where I knew high achievers were feeling underwhelmed were well within the top 400 or even within the top 150 and some cases of LCD teaching continues well into the late '00s. </p>
<p>Granted, most tended to be toward the bottom end of those ranges. However, it’s telling when students are allowed to count remedial math classes in high school-level algebra I as fulfilling core requirements as was the case with a friend’s ex who majored in elementary ed*, a class on multiplying/dividing fractions at a Boston area college that was in the top 150 or so back in the early-mid '90s, and ones where most graduates cannot compose coherent professional written correspondence to the point of embarrassing departments, senior executives, and the company itself when such correspondence was to clients. </p>
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<li>She drove my CS/math major friend crazy asking for academic help for a high-school level class as an undergrad. After he asked me to supplement the tutoring on a few visits…I could understand where he was coming from considering the root cause was a bad mix of poor K-12 math teaching and an obstinate unwillingness to put forth the required time and effort to study the chapters and practice the problem sets.</li>
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<p>And we’ve all heard stories of the Harvard grad flipping burgers somewhere… there are extremes, or better yet; exceptions, that prove every rule. And that was the point of my post - you get out what you put in. And a 34/35 ACT 4.0 gpa kid can be well challenged by most any school, if they apply themselves.</p>
<p>Myself and many of my peers from the college class of '86 have worked our way into comfortable, secure, low 6 figure salaries armed with nothing more than our Bachelors degrees from otherwise nondescript (and well out of the top 400) colleges and universities in “fly over land”</p>
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<p>I’ll say this as gently as I can – one does not need any college degree, let alone from a “prestigious” university, to teach ESL or to do proselytizing overseas.</p>
<p>As Allan Konigsberg said, (chapel and theology, not withstanding) take the money (at Baylor) and run! ;)</p>
<p>And I’ll say this as gently as I can- if I had a dollar for every kid who ended up at 28 doing what he/she thought he’d be doing at age 18-- well, I wouldn’t have a lot of dollars.</p>
<p>That’s sorta/kinda the point of college. To take all that raw material and introduce it to subjects and topics and ideas and philosophies that you haven’t heard of back at your High School.</p>
<p>"Yes, if “mission trips” is all he wants to do. Otherwise, it is very difficult to make that argument.</p>
<p>It’s not “mission trips”. It’s a curriculum organized around global mission leadership. It is meeting and working with the top people in the field (who will never ever set foot on the Yale campus.) It’s networking with future colleagues both from the U.S. and international students who are there for that very purpose. It’s full exposure to and immersion in a religious philosophy that drives the work. It’s being introduced to the people who fund this kind of work on a global basis. It’s mentoring both on campus and in the field.</p>
<p>None of this will be found at that inferior institution in New Haven, as well as offering significantly less prestige in the field.</p>
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<p>And here, you’re changing the subject. I was discussing perceptions about a given university by its graduates’ proficiency in some pretty basic academic skills…or the lack thereof.</p>
<p>Unless the Harvard or any decent college’s graduate is exceedingly dull, I’d expect him/her to at least be able to have basic mathematical skills used in everyday life* and to write coherently enough so the professional business letter/email isn’t thoroughly riddled with misspellings and confusingly incoherent paragraphs/sentences. </p>
<p>Discussing what jobs/occupations and incomes a graduate gets after graduation is a separate matter. </p>
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<li>i.e. Multiplying/dividing fractions, basic algebra/geometry, etc.</li>
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