<p>In hornets post “In NC, the lower tier colleges offer the separate housing, special faculty mentoring and small classes for their honors programs. At first glance, it would seem as if they are trying to “protect” the honors students from the general population.” </p>
<p>Actually, this is one of the things that bothered my D. She was offered all the things Bud mentioned at the University of South Carolina Honors College - more than a full ride, free laptop, preferred housing, priority registration for courses, money for research or study abroad. At the scholars weekend, the top administrators at the college came right out and said to these students “you are the best and the brightest in SC and we want you”. Sounds good, but they alluded to the fact that the rest of the student body might not be so motivated. My D, who is quite grade motivated, said she was tired of sticking out because she cared so much about schoolwork & grades (in high school), and she wanted to be in an environment where they didn’t have to have an honors college for the “smart people” - that it would be cool to spend a lot of time studying. Her older sister, who also went to Furman told her that at Furman, everybody studies - even the biggest partiers. My younger D has found this to be true. She has also become quite involved, joining a sorority, mentoring a middle school student, joining several on campus organizations related to her major, so she has found balance.</p>
<p>My daughter did get a good scholarship at Furman, but USC defnitely outrecruited them. In the end, if it is financially feasable, students will not make their decision solely on who can throw the most at them, if that school is not a good fit. I do wish that Furman was more affordable or had more scholarships - I teach at a public high school, and most of my students can’t even consider Furman unless they get one of the large scholaships - but I don’t think Furman is going to hurt for great students. Applications are way up this year, and like hornet and mommamocha said, I hope this means that there will be students who are diverse and interesting, more than just a high SAT score.</p>
<p>I would also like to disagree about the “top grades/top SAT” = top college student. My older child had a great SAT score. Her GPA in HS was a 3.4 (unweighted)/4.5 (weighted). She was not in the top 10% of her high school class and made quite a few C’s. I think Grinnell wanted her for diversity. She was also a good musician (several festival scholarships) and a good swimmer. She is graduating from Grinnell this May with departmental honors and a 3.8 overall GPA/4.0 in major (psych/neuroscience). Grinnell is not an easy school to do that well in. It ranks nationally in the top 10 for percentage of graduates that go on to earn PhDs. She came to college “fresh” and ready to work. She was not burned out from years of stressing over class rank and having a parent hover over her. She has frequently commented that several students who had the perfect GPAs in high school tanked in college and seemed to be making up for the social life they did not have in high school. She also found that the externally motivated, rank focused kids seemed to have trouble adjusting to a school where there is no rank, no mention of grades or honors until graduation.</p>
<p>I just read the article linked to above, and I see only positives. Focusing on class building rather than SAT scores will definitely enhance the college atmosphere. I’ve taught students who were runners, show choir members, equestrians, mock trial members, swimmers, musicians, student council members, actors, who wanted to go to Furman. They were great students, taking the most challenging high school courses, but only average SATs. They were accepted to Furman, but were not offered enough money to go. These are kids I know would excel there. If more money is going to go for students like these, I’m all for it.</p>
<p>Wow, I guess I got this site going again. I didn’t think using SAT’s as part of the admission process and working to attract top students were radical ideas. 99.9% of colleges do this.</p>
<p>bud123… “I didn’t think using SAT’s as part of the admission process and working to attract top students were radical ideas. 99.9% of colleges do this”</p>
<p>I think the point the posters are trying to make is that Furman is trying to attract the top students, but in doing so Furman is broadening their definition of “top performers” to focus less on SAT scores. This is trend that goes beyond Furman and includes many top LACs. Probably too soon to assess the outcome of this approach but sometimes change is good. Let just wait and see…</p>
<p>At the risk of throwing a fly in this ointment, our two children will be graduating from Furman this May. They have both received excellent educations from wonderful professors-many of whom I believe they will continue to communicate with after graduation. Both of them have have mentioned professors commenting on the number of students having to drop introductory level classes and struggling in the First Year seminars ( for new parents -2 are required). I do not have data that would quantify what the usual drop/add rate is per class in freshman year, but I do think there is a role for an evaluation of prospective students in terms of class load, GPA, interviews, community involvement and standardized testing. The classes at Furmn are rigorous and professors demand a lot ( in our family’s experience). As we learned 4-5 years ago during the college admission process, GPA’s as well as course content ( for the same course_ vary from school to school ( high school). Despite AP course audits by the CB, APUSH is not the same in every school, and therefore GPA’s and class load can be as much of a “red herring” as the SAT/ACT. Furman will benefit from every type of diversity, but the growth of the overall class enrollment needs to carefully implemented. I know of several students this semester and last who had “adjunct” professors -e.g. hired temporarily from USC-S, 'Clemson, and elsewhere, in order to handle class loads. It is my understanding that some were not "up to Furman standards. Obviously, I want the reputation of Furman to continue to grow, since I will now have 2 children with Furman degrees. As a parent, I want to be sure that a plan of this scope is implemented carefully and communicated properly to prospective students and families. It is been my experience that there is usually a growth curve for change of this magnitude, and I hope moving forward, the rationale and recruitment process is promoted in a way that fits with the quality of the school Furman represents.</p>
<p>I borrowed this link from another CC board but thought it seemed relevant to the admissions discussion here. </p>
<p>This is an interesting piece that looks at kids that are not the typical college admit. Although it does not address the SAT specifically, it is an example of looking at a student holistically. The young woman profiled in the blog won one of UVA’s most prized scholarships (another great school looking at admissions things differently than they have in the past).</p>
<p>The comments by the readers are worth skimming through. Although they are opinions and can’t be fact checked, there are other top schools not looking to the SAT to answer the quality of a good student. The young woman profiled did have good scores (they don’t say what they are). There are other posts (one from a PSY professor looking at grad students) that talks about looking beyond GRE/GPA in his choices (he is legit and has a link )</p>
<p>GAtwins makes a great point. Some kids have good grades but come from weak high schools and the SAT shows a college they are not ready for a rigorous school like Furman. Is Furman setting these kids up to fail? Will these kids help or hurt Furman? Is it ethical to bring these kids in collect their 50K and have them dropout?
The UVA Jefferson Scholarship (JS) program is one of the best merit scholarship programs in the country and I would LOVE to see Furman start a similar program. The article Hornet lists smells a bit fishy. The JS mission statement states it is looking to “identify, attract, and nuture individuals of extraordinary intellectual range” who are great leaders and service oriented. Last year JS students averaged 2260 on the SAT, 24 of 27 had an 800 in one or more sections and 27 kids combined to have 95 AP scores of 5. They also excelled in leadership and service in their schools and community. The Jefferson Scholarship is looking to attract top students away from Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford and recruit them to UVA. LETS BRING THESE KIDS TO FURMAN!</p>
<p>bud123, Furman grad here who resides in VA. The Jeffersons are completely funded by a private foundation of Jefferson Scholars and they do their own selections and interviews, with the cooperation of the admissions staff at UVA. Just wanted to clarify that funding and sources of money are the keys to such merit programs. Otherwise, UVA offers only Echols as an incentive for top draws because all UVA students are honors students. Echols offers advantages in course selection processes only and freedom from the core curriculum plus one year of optional group housing. Sophomores may apply as well. In my experience, Echols is a nice perk but its distribution is rather random as many deserving students are not selected.</p>
<p>Hornet, I also noticed that after you called him out he claimed that he went to Furman undergrad & Vandy for grad school, yet in his post #6 where he listed the reasons for picking Vandy they sound like items related to an undergraduate decision, not graduate.</p>
<p>I agree. His comments do sound like he is reporting an undergraduate experience at Vanderbilt, not a graduate one. I shouldn’t spend my semester break sleuthing out inconsistencies but the detective in me loves searches.</p>
<p>Oh, the poisonous venum from too many hornet stings…attacking the person but not the issues. 1. A detective gets all the facts before jumping the gun. Furman UG, Vandy G. 2. UVA vs Vandy thread (size, costs, location, city, rank) pertain to both UG and G experiences. 3. No, your sting about me posting under another name is false. 4. New CC members “opinions” are as valid as long time CC members and can be taken seriously even if they disagree with your opinions. 5. While I disagree with a few policies it does not make me a Furman hater. 6. I’m a bear??? really??? Perhaps my fur will protect me from angry hornets.
As for my Furman opinions. 1. Its sad to see great students that want to go to Furman unable to attend due to costs. 2. I would like to see Furman use its limited funds to help those kids. 3. Other schools aggressively recruit top students, so should Furman.<br>
4. Some schools are seeing their SAT scores and selectivity scores improve. I want Furman to see this as well. 5.Top students are good for Furman. 6. SAT scores can help with admission decisions.
Finally, my posts were not meant to attack anyone or their kids. I hoped to create discussions on these ideas but it appears CC is not the best place to share ideas.</p>
<p>I’m sure he wouldn’t be the first anonymous online poster to lie… To get back on topic… As a rising Furman Senior I don’t think it’s worth paying $200,000+ for a Furman education over most other schools that would be much cheaper. Fortunately I am here on a full-ride ride scholarship with benefits and I have had the opportunity to run Track and Field and participate in many groups that interest me. I love Furman, but I could just as easily love Wake Forest, Emory, Vanderbilt, etc. </p>
<p>I too would have a hard time explaining to anyone why I would take a $12,000 scholarship and have to pay over $150,000+ over four years when you can go to a comparable school and likely have a great experience there too.</p>
<p>Bud,
I won’t be able to play anymore. Summer school starts tomorrow. I appreciate the chuckle. At the risk of sounding grandiose, I will quote your earlier post on this thread , “I guess I got this thread going again” Have a great summer!</p>
<p>Spurs-I agree with you about cost. Middle class people do not need to take on debt for a college “name”. My son is attending Furman because, like you, he had a talent that they needed. His education will cost no more than his in-state acceptance, UNC Chapel Hill. I did not expect to have need-based grant money from anywhere for him. He will be my only child in college next year. He did not even consider Emory or Wake mainly because their scholarships are even more limited than Furman and, the need-based aid they offer focuses where I believe it should-first generation college and low income.</p>
<p>My older child attended college in the midwest because the package was better and the school’s strengths were equivalent to those on the east coast. Top colleges do have to have a certain percentage of full fee kids (who typically have high SATs because of good high school and SAT prep) to support offering money to students with less money. My guess is that Furman is transitioning into this model as it seems to attract many bright kids without needing to offer hefty scholarships. I imagine if this doesn’t prove so in the next few years, Furman will choose another path. I do not think a school of Furman’s caliber and history would chose to to stay on a self-destructive path (if their new policies are not “sustainable”)</p>
<p>There are many wonderful colleges out there and Furman is one of them. I am looking forward to my son’s experience there.</p>
<p>I did notice Furman had an increase in internationals for fall 2012 (and did for 2011 as well). I wonder if they chose to scholarship some of these students? Most top colleges boast international populations of about 10%. This was an area Furman was lacking numbers in and is vital to exposing students to a more “global” experience.</p>
<p>It looks like Furman has given out many nice scholarships. 50 named large schoalrships. 10 Duke, 4 Lay, 20 Hollingsworth, 1 Jolley, 10 Townes, and 5 legacy-merit scholarships. Congratulations to the winners. Quite an honor!!</p>
Have a great summer!</p>