Future Naval Academy Plebe

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>2013 - to echo WhistlePig’s sentiment and to add the following: </p>

<p>There are a couple of posters on this board who want to ensure that anything that could be characterized as derogatory to the Naval Academy is underscored, repeated and driven home to those considering USNA. </p>

<p>Presumably, this is to cast doubt in the minds of applicants and show that USNA has perhaps lost its moral compass, and is somehow less than West Point, USAFA, USMMA or USCGA. </p>

<p>Please be mindful of that when making even the most innocent throw-away remark.</p>

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<p>2013- You are correct that our new honor concept will be equipped to deal with the cheating scandal that took place over the Marine Corps Pro Quiz.</p>

<p>Looked suspicious to the higher ups? There was blatant evidence gathered where some of your classmates had the gumption to come forward and present the names of those who supplied the gouge.</p>

<p>“You don’t have to greet the upperclassmen outside Bancroft Hall…”…I could pick apart all 2013’s points here and present to you that there are things you should do and there are things you have to do.</p>

<p>Whether you are an upperclassman or not and you walk by someone, isn’t acknowledging that person’s existence when you pass them the right thing to do? You are taught to “greet” so that whether you are an O-9 or a MIDN 4/c, you greet whoever you walk past whether they are superior to you or not; it is just a matter of respect.</p>

<p>2013 is giving you his/her perspective on how to “slide by” plebe year, and not to embrace it for what it is really worth. </p>

<p>We have regulations, and I submit to you that the one about not having media is not “stupid”. 2013 is thinking about fleet practicality already and has not even seen a MIDN summer cruise yet, but is suggesting that our sailors are allowed to listen to music but we are not. Did you ever stop to think that as an officer, you are held to a higher standard. </p>

<p>Let’s present a scenario: ENS Schmuckatelli lies “in the fleet” vs. Petty Officer 3rd Class Schmuckatelli lying “in the fleet”. Who’s going to get tossed quicker?</p>

<p>Did you ever stop to think that the way we train and discipline officers might require a different dynamic altogether? I urge all MIDN 4/c “not to drink the punch” and accept the status quo, however, there are some regulations that actually do make sense.</p>

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<p>And there are a couple of posters on this board who want to ensure that anything that could be characterized as derogatory to the Naval Academy is covered up, glossed over, explained away, or simply ignored. </p>

<p>We have two current mids here who have characterized a recent episode of cheating in the following ways:</p>

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<p>One calls the cheating “widespread” and the other calls it a “scandal.” Yet those of us who wish to know more about this are castigated?</p>

<p>Stop trying to kill the messenger.</p>

<p>Please be mindful of that when making even the most innocent throw-away remark.</p>

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<p>USNA84’s admonition to be mindful of even the most innocuous ‘throw-away’ remark remains extremely pertinent here. Unless I am mistaken, this event happened rather recently and no investigation has yet been completed. Until this happens, any speculation as to how ‘widespread’ and if it was indeed a ‘scandal’ is just that and could prove detrimental to the overall outcome of the investigation. </p>

<p>I vote with '84 on this one.</p>

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<p>It’s a free country. You are certainly entitled to your opinions no matter how misinformed they might be.</p>

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<p>From the person who is actually in charge of directing this investigation, I can tell you that we have found that there was a mild scandal that took place during this pro-quiz. Gouge was passed in one particular battalion between the plebes, and there is evidence to suggest that the same gouge was passed from members of the battalion mentioned to other companies throughout the Brigade. There are isolated circumstances as to how the plebes acquired the gouge in the first place. All four classes are involved here as information was passed from MIDN 1/c, through training staffs, through youngsters, onto plebes. </p>

<p>The matter is still being investigated, and that is the most specific description I can give.</p>

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LOL
(post must be a minimum of 10 characters)</p>

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<p>question about passing of “gouge”…</p>

<p>are we talking about study guides [as in, here is a list of things to know, make sure you know them]… or are we talking about the specific questions that would be asked?</p>

<p>Seems to me I remember our [then] plebe getting pages and pages of things to study- I even remember quizzing him [on a family visit no less] on what uniform parts went with what uniform [I was dizzy trying to remember what went with what, and to this day I still get confused!]… I thought that was the “gouge” that needed to be studied…</p>

<p>so what is different about this set of circumstances?</p>

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<p>GoNavyXC:</p>

<p>Hey Shipmate,
Why not can the self-righteous nonsense. Yeah, you are leading the investigation, 4 stripes and all. Your targets will invariably be plebes (as long as they are not female or a member of another protected group). But you’ve got to do something right? I mean with all the fall-out and bad pub over the color guard and the “football fiasco” now is your big chance to show the world how tough you can be. Find the athletes, find the tough guys (you know, the one’s who don’t suck up, or the one’s who are struggling academically, or the one’s that are a little intimidating to the 4.0 types) and fry 'em all! Forget the stuff that’s been kept in Company and under the radar. Pay no attention to the precedent set by the upperclass over the years…You know, the “upperclass” - the one’s who are supposed to be guiding, supporting, mentoring (dare I say leading?) the plebes and youngsters. Now you’ve got a “scandal”! Whoa, what an opportunity to make a point and show what you are made of! Forget about the potential of your shipmates you’re looking to cut loose, all the effort and sacrifice it took to get here, forget the parents and families that will see a dream die --hey, it’s all for a good cause, the Honor of the Brigade and all. Please, do you really think that’s Honor? </p>

<p>Look, I love this place and all it stands for. I’m damn proud to wear the uniform, but this kind of corporate/political stuff has no place. Bottom line is the pro-quizzes have not been viewed as an academic test or assignment since you’ve been here. Firsties, training staff, and others have always given a “heads up” to their folks in one way or another and you are being hypocritical to say otherwise.</p>

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<p>Cheating happens at every university.</p>

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Yep. After 2013usna2013’s initial post, GoNavyXC’s description was my exact speculation. This is not an honor offense at all. A leadership issue where an entire company staff ought to be replaced but nothing to do with honor. “Passing the gouge” is a sacred Academy tradition.</p>

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<p>cheating at USNA gets you seperated.</p>

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<p>JustAnotherMid:</p>

<p>Coming from someone who got here without a family, whose parents died by drug and alcohol abuse at the age of 8, lived as a foster child for 10 years, lived in and out of dumpsters for three years, and was ultimately given the opportunity to serve as a future officer, I would say that ALL midshipmen should really know how fortunate they really are to be at the academy and to confront each situation like grown men and women, and not be afraid to do so, knowing the legacy that we have all worked so hard to achieve and maintain. The dream should not be your family’s, but your own to lose. I am just a normal mid like you who has made it a personal obligation to spread the good word about why the moral mission is essential to our personal development and to operational readiness as we will all be serving in a leadership capacity.</p>

<p>“Shipmate” is a term used to degrade someone, and that should never be used when we’re talking to each other in a respectful way. If you want to talk one on one, email me and I’ll set aside as much time as you want to in order to talk about 2010’s aim with the honor instruction. It is not to get the athletes and those “non-performers” and get them thrown out. In fact, we’ve spent the past 2 years trying to level the playing field by being consistent with all of the sanctions. We have worked hard to gain the Brigade’s trust back as they understand that the honor staff is not out there to get anyone. If you remember the single slide that was put up at reform at the Brigade Honor Advisor’s call - it said, “we work for you”. While previous year’s staffs told the Brigade that THEY knew what was best, we wanted to get as much participation as possible with the Brigade, thus the creation of the honor congress.</p>

<p>I’ve spent hours counseling accused midshipmen ONE ON ONE. When a mid knows they’ve been accused of an honor violation and they see it as the end of the world, don’t they need leaders (dare I say people on the honor staff) that can assure them that it’s not the end of the world, and that they can still be redeemed? Guess what, this happens everyday! However, there are some acts that cannot be forgiven, and I do hope you agree with me on that point.</p>

<p>To clarify, if I’m an upperclass midshipman, and I tell my 4/c exactly which 3 platforms to study from a 17 platform possibility on a pro-quiz, that is a little more than “passing gouge”. JustAnotherMid, I did say all four classes were involved in this, and they main goal is not to send them packing, it is to realize the dangers and moral shortcomings of passing “specific” gouge for a test. The real “honor” in all of this is the leadership that comes from the honor staff in motivating those involved to understand what was done wrong, why it is wrong, and to help spread the word around that actions like these shouldn’t happen. Leadership is the ability to affect positive choice and change, and that is the main goal.</p>

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Wow. Just wow. This goes to show. One can indeed teach an old dog new tricks. I have only spent the last almost half century in and around the Navy and never knew this. To this day, at least since the advent of calling cards, I get at least one phone call a week which invaribly begins; “Hey, shipmate, do you have a minute for me?” I always reply, no matter what I am doing; ”Roomie, I ALWAYS have a minute for you.” After all these years, I find that my old room mate has actually been degrading me. When he calls today I am going to hang up on him. And season football ticket renewals are due next week so it’s not too late to change my seats next to him which we have had together for the last 20 or so years.</p>

<p>I really believe that someone who sees this as degrading should perhaps cease looking backward as an individual and commence looking forward as a team player (read ‘shipmate’).</p>

<p>Honestly, this is one of the saddest comments I have ever read on this forum. Someone, after almost four full years, has actually totally trivialized the one single thing that makes USNA the great institution that it truly is. Plebe company singalongs must be a thing of the past:

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Never happen.</p>

<p>Let’s set the stage. Every June, more than 1200 individuals show up in Annapolis. They learn teamwork. They learn that the strength of the mightiest chain is only as strong as its weakest link. They learn to identify goals and work together to achieve these goals. They live together 24/7, all in the same dorm, and learn to totally depend on each other. Then the academic year commences. And guess what, they pretty much all TAKE THE SAME COURSES with all the same exams. Now the curve ball. All the instructors have not been through Plebe Summer. Some are not so goal driven. Some, usually the better ones which we remember fondly after all these years, have to be gently prodded back on course occasionally. Conversly, there are those who might actually on the first day of class list the goals of the course on the board. There might also be those who, concerned about tenure and needing a good showing from their students, might actually review by ‘teaching the test.’ The more savvy and goal oriented of students in some of these classes may actually have a very good grasp of exactly what is going to be on the final exam. Now, this savvy goal-oriented student is also a team player and shipmate. The night before the final exam, he pushes the solution to Theorem A across the desk to his roomie, who has spent the semester taking his pillow to class and says, “Learn this”. Low and behold. Guess what? Question 1: Prove Theorem A. Does he return to Bancroft Hall and buy his roomie a coke at the Steerage or does he turn him in to GoNavyXC for an honor violation? The rift created by any attempt to curb this very worthwhile and valuable practice will run deep. Some gouge sheets are obviously illicitly obtained. Some are created by savvy students actually attempting to help others. To misinterpret the source of either or an attempt to curb the latter will be disastrous.</p>

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What about 4? 5? 6? Anything less than 17? Are they all of equal importance? If not, will any effort by the training officer to emphasize certain ones at the expense of others, be construed as an honor violation. Sounds to me like the makings of a very boring very irrelevant training session. Since this is the Marine portion, what about the ex-Marine plebe who helps his roommates to study by identifying which of the 17 platforms are really worthwhile and which are useless and the test was actually conceived by someone of like mind. Will he be ostracized as a cheater or will he be lauded as a team player? All in all, a way too slippery slope. Honor is important, but at the expense of goal achievement and teamwork, not so much so.</p>

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<p>Rotflmafaopimp.</p>

<p>I mean, really, let me catch my breath, I can’t stop laughing at that one. </p>

<p>(and I’m not laughing at her spelling mistake)</p>

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<p>“Shipmate” is a term used to degrade someone, and that should never be used when we’re talking to each other in a respectful way.</p>

<p>Wow, things have really changed since the 70’s…</p>

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<p>The name of the alumni magazine is Shipmate. Think the new grads will try to change it? Or maybe boycott it because it is insulting. Maybe change it to Self or One Way?</p>

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<p>“Shipmate” is meant to be a term of respect, but like a lot of those monikers it can be used sarcastically as well. Ship, shipmates, self is what we are taught, right?</p>

<p>Sometimes reminding someone that they are a “shipmate” is meant to try and get them to reflect on their behavior. Not putting words in JustanotherMid’s mouth, but that was the way I read his post.</p>

<p>For my part, I spoke with 2C son today (live, and in person), and he said it happened “in another battalion” so it isn’t as if this is something equivalent to the West Point cheating scandal in the 70’s.</p>

<p>The Bancroft rumor mill loves to overblow these things. I’m confident that the Academy will handle it appropriately.</p>

<p>It’s probably a good idea for everyone to retreat to neutral corners and take a deep breath. But, I am sure we’re in for 3-4 more pages of useless, pointless diatribe from the usual suspects. We know who we are… ;)</p>

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<p>@navy2010</p>

<p>I believe Luigi is laughing at you because you fail to understand that cheating on other universities gets you expelled as well. </p>

<p>I know that at the University’s of California, if you cheat at a university, not only to you get expelled, but you get blacklisted from every other UC campus in the state. </p>

<p>Correct me if I am wrong Luigi.</p>

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<p>I definitely do not know the facts of the case, but it sounds like a possible leadership issue (concur with mombee). I base this on my four years – most training officers, training sergeants, and training corporals would receive advanced copies of the pro-quiz. A training corporal would then disseminate the information — not before long, a company’s plebes would have significant knowledge of the exam content.</p>

<p>I was an advocate then, as now – if the training staff doesn’t want the “gouge” of the exam to get out, don’t hand the quizzes out until right before. Get all the training officers assembled in the DANT’s conference room 30mins prior, then distribute the quiz.</p>

<p>In my opinion, comearounds are a time when the 3/C, 2/C, and 1/C should be covering any material that might cause confusion, assesing the amount of knowledge of the week’s topic, and providing their gouge on what is important – is it more important to know the 4 parts of a MAGTF or the exact number of Marines in a MEB? In other words, the upperclass should be pointing out the big poles. Normally, if one understands the “big concepts” they pass the pro-quiz; the specific detailed questions (i.e. range of a .50 cal, M240, CIWS) is what seperates the 95%+ and these questions are normally weighted a little less.</p>

<p>It isn’t wrong to ask what you should know. Case-and-point is those of you who go SWO, it is imperative you ask your department heads what questions they are going to ask you; some will tell you the exact question (i.e. difference between PMI and WSM) and others will be more broad (i.e. know the entire combat system and weapons suite and differences between DDG/CG/FFG). </p>

<p>BTW, for those of you who will go SWO, keep your pro-knowledge topics from all warfare areas (Surface, Subs, Aviation, TACAIR, USMC, Amphib OPS, Strike, C4I/C5I, Cyber, etc.); I wish I had done that.</p>

<p>As a plebe, keep your ears and mind open – observe and learn. Respect your classmates and help them out. Try to keep a positive attitude and laugh at your mistakes. Know what your 2/C and 1/C expect of you – support your bosses, be proactive (i.e. if they want you to hand in a weekly progress report, don’t wait for them to ask for it), and communicate issues.
BOTTOM LINE: Put forth a lot of effort, keep your head up, if you fail at something – don’t give up, and if you are feeling too stressed out – go workout or talk about it with someone (normally other classmates or 3/C) – don’t let it build up. </p>

<p>You are at USNA to learn (general military training and degree), make decisions, and accept responsibility. These three things will follow you around throughout your officer career. </p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

<p>Questions? Please feel free to message me.</p>