<p>Law school isn't the place for intellectualism either. It is a trade school that prepares you to pass the bar and live your career as a lawyer. </p>
<p>If the OP wants intellectualism, either apply to a PhD program or take courses as a non-degree student at your local university.</p>
<p>^Law school is to some extend. Look at all the presidents with a Law degree vs the one with an MBA degree.</p>
<p>Columbia_Student, a law degree is not for everyone because it teaches what you need to know to enter the profession. Some of the most intellectual people in the world did not attend law school. The U.S. Presidents that do have law degrees come from privileged backgrounds and went to the top schools (Ivy League) to join a powerful alumni network. The U.S. Supreme Court is the same way (all of the justices went to elite schools). Did you know a law degree is not required to become a congressman or senator? It's not required for the U.S. Presidency either.</p>
<p>Becoming a law professor (which is the most intellectual path) is next to impossible for most people unless you attend a T14-ranked law school, made law review AND/OR done some amazing prestigious clerkships. Most law school graduates enter litigation to pay off their huge student loan debts. Paperwork. Long hours. Tedious work. More paperwork. Nothing intellectual about this type of work. It sucks even more if you attend a non-elite, lower-ranked law school. They are doing work that someone with a bachelor's degree could do.</p>
<p>This article from the University of Notre Dame sums it up very well:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why are lawyers so unhealthy and unhappy? Why do so many lawyers, in the words of Judge Laurence Silberman, Ahate what the practice of law has become? Lawyers give many reasons. They complain about the commercialization of the legal profession about the fact that practicing law has become less of a profession and more of a business. They complain about the increased pressure to attract and retain clients in a ferociously competitive marketplace. They complain about having to work in an adversarial environment. They complain about not having control over their lives and about being at the mercy of judges and clients. They complain about a lack of civility among lawyers. They complain about a lack of collegiality and loyalty among their partners. And they complain about their poor public image. Mostly, though, they complain about the hours.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Those</a> unhappy, unhealthy lawyers, Notre Dame magazine</p>
<p>My advice to the OP is to make sure they have reviewed their options carefully before they make the giant leap to law school. If they graduate with huge student loan debt, they have to pay it off somehow and the options are not plentiful at non-elite schools. There are people who enroll as non-degree students to fulfill their intellectual curiosity everyday without having to undertake such massive debt and lifestyle changes. The "I always wanted a law degree since childhood" is not a legitimate reason either. Parents, teachers and other adults erroneously tend to feed the "law school is good cause you'll make a lot of money" all the time without knowing the truth of the profession. Go to law school because you LOVE the law and cannot see yourself doing anything else.</p>
<p>HMom5,</p>
<p>Your husband sounds amazing. Wow. Does he have a younger brother or cousin or something?</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>It is a trade school that prepares you to pass the bar and live your career as a lawyer. <<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not the top law schools in the nation.</p>
<p>Living a soul-less life of paperwork, paperwork and more paperwork....sounds like me in about 6 years when I finish law school.</p>
<p>Oh well, I gotta put food on the table (even if just for me) somehow. :) And it's better than staring at spreadsheets all day....I'd much rather be staring at paperwork all day than staring at spreadsheets and managing 22 year old arrogant pricks that are in it for "models and bottles"....can you figure out what other profession I'm considering?</p>
<p>What I actually said was</p>
<p>
[quote]
think very carefully before you decide to disappoint that child.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>which imo is good advice for someone who says</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've wanted to go to law school since I was a kid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>because presumably such a persistent dream in a person who is older than most college students indicates that she might well be a person who would</p>
<p>
[quote]
Go to law school because you LOVE the law
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</p>
<p>whether or not she could conceivably see herself doing something else.</p>
<p>@ ellemenope</p>
<p>Most elite law schools have acceptance rates averaging 15% each year. Very competitive.
(Source: 2009</a> Raw Data Law School Rankings : Acceptance Rate (Ascending))</p>
<p>This is another website I recommend for the OP. Read ALL of the comments:
5</a> Myths about going to law school » Brazen Careerist by Penelope Trunk</p>
<p>tenisghs re: your quote: "Becoming a law professor (which is the most intellectual path) is next to impossible for most people unless you attend a T14-ranked law school, made law review AND/OR done some amazing prestigious clerkships. Most law school graduates enter litigation to pay off their huge student loan debts. Paperwork. Long hours. Tedious work. More paperwork. Nothing intellectual about this type of work. "</p>
<p>The above statements are likely true about experiences some in the law--but not all. To say that only students who graduate from elite law schools have 'intellectual' work is ill-informed and to state that being a law professor is the 'most intellectual' side of the profession is a subjective generalization. The fact is there are plenty of people in the legal profession who do fascinating, intellectual work (crafting intricate, policy-oriented legal arguments all day long is not intellectual?) and they 1) did not graduate from elite law schools and 2) are not law professors.</p>
<p>Moreover, I've known a variety of excellent, fascinating law professors who did not graduate from 'top-10' law schools.</p>
<p>A realistic perspective on a legal career is one thing -- broad brush negativism and the insisting that a rewarding, intellectually challenging career can only come from the narrow background of top-ranked school is a bit elitist and inaccurate.</p>
<p>Jolynne Smyth, you don't have to graduate from a top 10 law school (I mentioned T14) to become a law professor. But most law professors made law review and did some amazing clerkships to achieve their current positions. You can graduate with a law degree, but that does not necessarily qualify you to become a professor. The alternatives (such as litigation) are not very intellectual. Since you want to mention public policy, those positions are few and very competitive too (especially if you're focusing on DC gigs like Congress, ACLU, NAACP-LDF and more).</p>
<p>Blossom,</p>
<p>I just wanted to clarify something: I've sat in MBA classes and even taken one that permitted undergraduate attendance. I've talked with at least a couple of dozen current and former MBA students at top schools over the past two years trying to figure out what I wanted to do. </p>
<p>In my experience (and I'd love to hear if yours was very different): it's true that it's not intellectual at all. Several did independent study projects but they were business-oriented (analyzing a market, writing a business plan), rather than academic -- which makes a lot of sense. No Kant or Hegel at all, even if they studied philosophy undergrad.</p>
<p>However, almost all, even the "intellectual types" said that the MBA was very personally rewarding even if they did not go a traditional business route with their careers. They say, in general, that it helped them develop as people: learn better communication skills, work better with others, see themselves as leaders, gain polish, etc. I guess that's what I meant about being personally fulfilling even if not academic. </p>
<p>And it makes my decision harder too. :(</p>
<p>Jolynne Smith, </p>
<p>If we assume (yes, I know it's a huge assumption) that I'll go to a T14 school, does that make my chances of doing serious intellectual legal work even better?</p>
<p>Return- my MBA was personally rewarding- I tripled my salary pre and post, and have had opportunities since then that would never have been afforded me without the MBA. But the process of GETTING the MBA would have been a very expensive way to learn the communication skills and get polished if the objective wasn't to work in some business capacity.</p>
<p>My company sends managers to various one day communication workshops, "charm school", etc. to further their training. We pay a per diem of about $1500/day for really good trainers for these "soft skills". So for an expenditure of roughly 4500 you could get yourself polished by expert trainers. I would not think that paying $60K/year for two years worth of business school just to get the personal growth would be a good investment. Go to B-school to come out an MBA. Don't go to B school to get the edges knocked off-- there are far cheaper and less painful ways to do that, not to mention the opportunity cost of not working for two years while in school.....</p>
<p>Blossom, there are career alternatives for MBA students who are interested in nonprofit management, government, sustainability, and social enterprise/entrepreneurship. There are loan forgiveness programs for those who want to pursue these areas (and it's growing too). This is an example from the Yale School of Management: Yale</a> School of Management - Loan Forgiveness</p>
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[quote]
The U.S. Presidents that do have law degrees come from privileged backgrounds and went to the top schools (Ivy League) to join a powerful alumni network.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I stopped reading the rest of your post after the above statement. Bill Clinton, Obama came from priviledge background?</p>
<p>Ten, I'm very familiar with these programs. But they don't teach material which is "personally rewarding"; these students are learning the same managerial accounting and valuation and operations management skills that you learn at any other business school. My point was that if you don't want a job that leverages these skills, getting an MBA for "personal growth" is a very expensive way to grow; even if you find someone else to pay the tab. If you are working for a foundation developing supply chain strategies for vaccines, you are leveraging your MBA skills-- not those "personal growth" warm and fuzzies.</p>
<p>Loan forgiveness programs are great- that doesn't mean that Yale SOM isn't as much a trade school as any other top B school. They teach you a big old pile of stuff and expect you to leverage it in an organization somewhere. MBA schools don't require Corporate Finance classes because they are personally enriching once you get out there in your role as a dental hygenist or speech therapist; they teach it because employers of MBA's expect them to know what DCF is- and if yours don't, they won't recruit at your school.</p>
<p>Pretty simple model.</p>
<p>tenisghs--there are a myriad of law-related careers which are intellectually challening on a variety of levels that do not fall into the categories of 1) litigation 2) law professor.</p>
<p>To name a few: public interest, government (innumurable avenues which are too large to list), corporate law (strategizing the complexities of corporate success is not intellectual?), tax (if that's your thing--I've known some purely brilliant tax/benefits attorneys), the list goes on.</p>
<p>returningstudent--if you go to a higher-ranked school (as in any profession) that name recognition will likely open more doors from you. Statistically, the more doors you have open, the greater than chance you will find something that suits you. But, it's not a guarantee that you will end up appropriately challenged. The key, I think, is finding an area of the law that matches your personality and abilities. It's quite a broad field. Some very bright people thrive on arguing on their feet, assessing a jury, juggling multiple balls in the air on short notice (litigation). Others like to ponder the intricacies of an issue over time and argue via the written word.</p>
<p>You might want to think about your ideal work environment--then talk to a few people who are successful in that area and ask about their educational backgrounds. I've found people to be very generous and helpful to those seeking information about a career.</p>
<p>Columbia_Student, Obama wasn't exactly poor his entire childhood. He attended a private high school in Hawaii. His father was also a Harvard graduate. While Bill Clinton wasn't born rich by any means, he still received his education from two elite schools (Georgetown and Yale). Both men are an exception to the rule, but they didn't just go to any university for their education. Their degrees opened doors for them because they became members of an exclusive alumni network.</p>
<p>blossom, I'm not sure if the OP is interested in corporate or tax law. Those could be intellectually-stimulating (and high-paying) areas of interest if the OP loves and wants to do that type of work. Yes, I mentioned government earlier in this thread but it is still a very competitive field (DC for example is over-saturated with JDs, not surprising). Public defenders and public interest law is another field (I didn't mention these because the pay is generally low, caseloads are high, and burnout is common.) When I was working in Congress, most of the lawyers drafting bills graduated from elite schools (I can still remember the woman telling me she went to Yale). But if the OP is interested in these areas, I say good luck to them.</p>
<p>Ditto on the informational interviews in the workplace. This is the best way to figure out what you want in a career.</p>
<p>DC is not the only place to become involved in the government. States have many opportunties for policy involvement.</p>