@ariesasthena, yes, that is true, but labor force participation rates have dropped the most among less-skilled workers. Lawyers and others with college and graduate degrees have certainly suffered in the Great Recession, but they’ve usually been impacted by taking lower-level jobs than they otherwise would.
@Demosthenes, sure, here is a link to the Harvard fellowships page: http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/fellowships/
Most of them are prestigious, hard to get and have been offered for years. They aren’t the UVA or GW fellowships that are just “filler” jobs. Even the ones that could appear to be “filler” jobs have application deadlines way, way before graduation, meaning that they aren’t just fillers that are handed out to the unemployed.
Again, if you go to Harvard- and I did, and I know current students and plenty of Class of 2008-2014 graduates- you always graduate with at least a few offers, unless for some reason you decide not to seek employment (usually if you’re heading for another degree, or have some 1 in a thousand problem that prevents you from working, or something like that).
@HappyAlumnus: Thank you for the link. However, it does not support your claim that there are “superstars who turn down other options in order to remain at Harvard in teaching roles.” I’m not denying the existence of such fellowships, and certainly Harvard, as a top 3 school, is in a great place to position its graduates, but that does not necessarily mean these people are counted in the “school funded” category.
Also, there are twice as many law graduates as law jobs. That is necessarily pushing half of law grads out of law. Those numbers are, as I’m sure you agree, disproportionately spread. Schools at the top place most grads, schools at the bottom place few. With an LSAT score in the 17th percentile, OP is headed for the bottom. That is not a good place to be in.
Demosthenes49, “twice as many law graduates as law jobs” does not really affect HYS.
The link most certainly does support my claim that there are “superstars who turn down other options in order to remain at Harvard in teaching roles.” Look at some of the fellowships available:
Law Teaching
Berkman Center for Internet and Society Fellowships
Byse Fellowships (for HLS S.J.D. students)
Climenko Fellowships in the First-Year Legal Research and Writing Program
Raoul Berger-Mark DeWolfe Howe Legal History Fellowship
Reginald F. Lewis Fellowship for Law Teaching
Summer Academic Fellowship Program (for current HLS students only)
Here’s a description of one of them, the Reginald F. Lewis Fellowship for Law Teaching: http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/fellowships/the-reginald-f.-lewis-fellowships-for-law-teaching.html
Applications were due in January (meaning that it’s not just a filler handed out for an unemployed person) and it has a rigorous program.
Also, you can look at the Harvard Law School faculty pages. Those who teach legal-theme classes at Harvard College as well all have TAs from the Law School. Those TA jobs are handed out only to the best and the brightest at the Law School, and the best of them are encouraged to stick around as a TA for another year post-graduation before becoming a professor somewhere good. Anyone who worked as a TA for Morton Horwitz, a legend in US legal history (http://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/directory/10405/Horwitz), who taught a class on US legal history at Harvard College even though he was based at HLS, could write a ticket anywhere, for example.
HappyAlumnus, why are you turning this into a Harvard thread? The young student who asked a question has zero chance of attending HLS, isn’t looking to attend HLS, and doesn’t care about your opinion of HLS.
@HappyAlumnus: The mere existence of fellowships does not show that:
- They were taken by HLS grads;
- If they were taken, they counted in the "school funded" category; or
- If they were taken, that they were taken by choice and not from lack of alternatives
Hand waving about “writing tickets” also does not establish any of the above, all of which were your point. You’re also welcome to concede and revise your point, if you prefer.
@Demosthenes, again…just look in the Harvard directory, or Google the names of those fellowships, or look on the fellowship pages themselves to see who got them. The ones at HLS are generally open only to HLS graduates (with some exceptions for established professors and the like). There are about 20 of them given to HLS graduates last year, which ties in to the “school funded” numbers of 22 that you mentioned. And, again, the application deadlines for most of them are in December or January, which is months and months before graduation. Only someone who really wants the academic/public interest track that those fellowships involve would apply for them in December or January and then not seek other employment.
OK, I’ll say it again.
People seeking advice on this board should know the posters who give advice, so that the advice can be considered in light of its source.
Many of the posters here have given information about their legal education and backgrounds. For example, Spayurpets went to Duke Law School and has worked in high-profile firms and in other contexts, so I can consider advice from Spayurpets to be from someone who is pretty knowledgeable about how to succeed in the law school admissions and law school employment fields. Spayurpets is clearly very smart and very successful.
Not all posters have given information about their backgrounds, however. So if you ask questions, consider the source of the advice, particularly since posters giving advice are not pre-screened (i.e., there is nothing stopping a non-lawyer from giving advice even on a law school board).
And to add to my post above:
I attended law school, graduating nearly 20 years ago, and my current involvement with my law school is with the alumni office, although I work closely with recent graduates (including some who worked in the admissions office while in law school within the past few years) and sometimes current students and know them both professionally and personally. So feel free to discount my advice considering that.
I graduated far more recently than most people using this forum and went to a “Top 14” school and knew a bunch of people from multiple T-14s who graduated with no job. I knew a couple unemployed Stanford law grads from my year and Stanford has a tiny graduating class. Fortunately most if not all of them are now gainfully employed but it may have taken them one to two years of looking or volunteering.
According to this link, only 78% of Columbia law grads from the Class of 2013 got biglaw or a clerkship from graduation. → This number matters the most usually. Around 7% of the class was school funded. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/columbia/2013/
According to this link, only 72% of Harvard law grads from the Class of 2013 got biglaw or a clerkship from graduation. → This number matters the most usually. Around 3.8% was on a school funded fellowship.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/harvard/2013/
Part of the reason why the numbers are low is because of huge class sizes. I know many law schools have recently cut down on class sizes to counter the lower employment.
I think the economy has gotten better since the Class of 2013 did OCI in 2011. However, law school is still risky not only because of the questionable employment rates, but also because it costs so much; frankly, a lot of the legal jobs that you have to take to pay off your loans suck. Unless your parents are rich and willing to pay (and you’d be surprised as to how many rich kids are in law school - half of my friends had no loans) I would think twice before committing to law.
I went to our local law school in the '90’s which now ranks in the #29-31 range depending on year. Private practice out of law school and now an appellate lawyer for too many year to mention.
I will weigh in and say there is seriously 0% chance of the OP getting into Columbia LS. Beyond that, she could probably go to a Tier 3 of Tier 4 school, but jobs from those will be rough. I don’t just mean your first job will be rough; I mean all law jobs for your entire career will look back at your law school. There is no way to sugar coat this.
I graduated from the best law school in my state, which is nationally #15. I have always practiced in my state, and for this state, that school was plenty good enough for the career I’ve had. (I started at BIGLAW and then moved in-house to a large international corporation.) But even 20 years ago when I was in school, my school didn’t accept transfers from bottom run law schools.
I have a very dear friend who had a good college GPA, but as an ESL immigrant, had a poor LSAT score. So he went to a lower tier law school. To this day he will tell you it was a huge mistake. Everyone thinks they will do well in law school and rise to the top, but obviously that isn’t happening. Those good fresh out of school jobs don’t appear for graduates of Tier 4 schools. Companies do not want JDs when the job doesn’t require a JD. Hanging a shingle is brutal if you like food and electricity on a regular basis.