I’m a URM (single, independent :P, black female) who graduated with a 2.75 GPA from a public Ivy and earned a 142 on the LSAT. I’m also really struggling securing LORs due to a lack of closeness with my professors, and I haven’t had any meaningful employment since graduating, so I’m also a tad screwed on an LOR from a professional source.
My dream school, quite frankly, the only institution from which I want to receive my legal education is Columbia. I know there is absolutely no way I can get in with my current stats, and I cannot realistically see myself being able to raise my LSAT score to anything respectable. I’ve already taken 2 years off from undergrad and haven’t made much progress towards anything I want to do with my life (unemployed for 2 years).
Would someone like me, a driven, and eager to work hard, URM benefit from attempting to simply enroll in the most reputable, low tier school that I could gain admissions; fostering relationships with professors, getting involved in the community, excelling in the classroom, etc.? Should I spend yet another year looking for employment and studying for a beast of a test that in no way accomdates, but rather creates a huge conflict for my unique learning style? I’m asking these questions not out of llaziness towards the LSAT, but because I genuinely want to know if my idea of attending and exceeding in 1L at the institution I can secure admissions is a commendable, alternative way of demonstrating to my dream school that I can succeed in their law school. If you think this is a good idea, do you have any suggestions of schools that are very favorable towards URMs with my stats?
Thanks for your response! So you do believable my plan to just tear it up in the classroom at an easy to get into school and then transferring is a good idea, doable?
Any LSAT score below a 145 is in the danger zone for being unable to pass the bar. If you cannot manage these types of tests, seriously consider if you can pass the bar.
Continue to study for the LSAT. You will benefit from doing so, both in law school admissions and in getting yourself ready to pass the bar.
Your chances of getting any financial aid are very low, and paying full price for any school not named Harvard, Yale, or Stanford is foolish.
Everyone thinks they are going to tear it up in the classroom and few do. Do not count on this.
@iwantlawschool, I certainly wish you the best, and as long as you do end up making superb grades, putting you at the top of your class, then you could transfer up the scale of schools. I don’t know how high you could transfer though- I’d look at your target transfer schools and see if you can find out where transfer students came from.
I thought that law school was an impossible place (for me) to be a standout. I did far better in college. I was almost first in my class in college but (lower) middle of the pack in law school.
@iwantlawschool: I won’t sugar coat this: you should not go to law school. I think you’re absolutely right in wanting to go to a school like Columbia, but unfortunately with your numbers there is no way it could happen. Transferring is extremely unlikely. Your numbers will force you out of the [top 100](http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-content/uploads/Law-School-Predictor-Full-Time-Programs.htm) schools. To move to a school like Columbia from outside the top 100, you would need to be among the top students in your class. There is a 95% chance you will not be in the top 5%, and that is assuming top 5% is good enough for Columbia.
Even if you got into Columbia, you would do so as a transfer. The main employers care about your first year more than any other (almost exclusively, in fact). That first year would still be from the lower ranked school. That means you would suffer under the drastic employment conditions universally found at schools of that level. Columbia would open the door to interview rooms, but it is very likely the name of your first school would close it.
Just as importantly, as a transfer student Columbia has no incentive to give you merit aid. Columbia is incredibly expensive. They report an annual cost of attendance of [url=<a href=“http://web.law.columbia.edu/financial-aid/costs-and-billing/costs-budgeting%5D$85,755%5B/url”>http://web.law.columbia.edu/financial-aid/costs-and-billing/costs-budgeting]$85,755[/url]. And that assumes you can spend only $1300 a month on rent. In New York City.
Even if you do manage to get into Columbia, you are looking at $200,000 in educational debt with, likely, no real way to pay it off. If you don’t get into Columbia, then depending on your school and merit aid you could end up even more in debt and with even less chance of paying it off. It is worth noting that this is not your fault. The law school business model is atrocious and they will undoubtedly be first against the wall come the revolution. As it stands, however, you should not go to law school.
Thanks for your opinion. I guess I won’t go to law school. I guess I’ll be another minority deterred from entering a field in which we’re grossly underrepresented.
Playing the poor me race card is uncalled for. YOU had a low GPA as well as a low LSAT. Do you expect schools to overlook a 2.75/142? if you couldnt achieve a B average at a public college, why should Columbia take a chance on you?
@iwantlawschool, why would you not go to law school just because of one post on a message board? I’d certainly take it seriously, but I’d weigh the decision carefully.
@HappyAlumnus: Weigh the decision as carefully as you like, but I don’t see a way out. Those numbers will put her into only terrible schools, leaving her with tons of debt and no job prospects. In those circumstances the decision seems quite clear to me.
I was being sarcastic. I would never base my decision off one individual. I will be going to law school. I am not concerned with job prospects. I want to attend law school solely for the education and networking.
@GA2012MOM. Give me a break. I am NOT playing the race game. I’ve never felt disenfranchised because of my race. I was simply responding to an individual, in a sarcastic way. Zero chance I’m giving up my law school dream off a single post. I have many “soft factors” that would blow any admissions committee away. I’ll get in eventually, I just want to do everything I can to increase my chances.
@iwantlawschool, I would question both the education and the networking that you’d get at a school that you’d likely be heading to with a 142 LSAT. (Even at other schools, networking with other lawyers is not particularly productive, and the education isn’t that useful.) I would think long and hard before proceeding as things currently are.
If I were you, I’d take a Kaplan class or the like and study for the LSAT for months and months–and study hard. Then I’d retake the LSAT. If you get a 150 on the LSAT, then you’ll be with a range of a school like Samford U. in Birmingham, Catholic U. of America or the like. It’s going to be a difficult road ahead, but those schools are reputable. You’ll need to be at the very top of your class there- and I’ve posted how hard that was for me at least- but you’ll at least have a JD (and a lot of tuition to pay).
Your plans to have a JD are based on a lot of “ifs”.
This site is most likely frequented by BigLaw types and frankly I am one of them (and as you can see from another discussion my son is now deciding between Michigan and Duke law schools). I did want to point out, however, that if someone graduates from law school and passes the bar, they are a lawyer. There are some law schools where you can have a full time job and go at night. There are some on Long Island, Cleveland-Marshall, Arizona Summit Law School (Phoenix) and others. This could help prevent incurring debt. There are lawyers who “pound the pavement” and build a practice. I am not saying it isn’t very difficult, and I am not sure I would have been good at it, but have heard older lawyers complain that no one wants to do that any more. Before I get complaints about this post, let me say that agree with the other comments. I just wanted to mention that this can be an avenue for someone who really wants to become a lawyer but does not want to go into debt. It is very had to go at night (I got an LL.M. at night at NYU while working at BigLaw so I know) but it is something to consider if the option is not to go to law school and that is your dream.
Your post #6 came off as very bitter, sorry. My daughter is AA and in her 3rd year of med school. Her stats were not great, but if they were equivilent to yours, I would have gave her the same advice.
Why do people post then complain about the responses? :-t
@2134ar: People don’t want to “pound the pavement” because they live in the real world. How are you going to eat while you’re out looking for clients? Who is going to hire you fresh out of law school when there are plenty of experienced lawyers? How are you going to afford your bar fees and malpractice insurance? Starting a firm takes capital, and that’s something most law students, freshly indebted, don’t have. Even if they do have it, they’ll blow through it quickly enough while figuring out that the vast majority of clients don’t have the money to pay them.
Law schools graduate twice as many “lawyers” as there are available jobs in the legal market. They’ve been doing so for a decade. Law is a field completely saturated. For new lawyers, every client out there is the target of some lawyer that has already established himself in the market. Sure, every so often someone will succeed, but mostly people fail and it ruins their lives for decades. Dreams are what people talk about when they were the lucky ones who succeeded. Everyone else calls them mistakes. Entering law in today’s market is only viable for those who can perfectly position themselves. A 2.7/142 is never going to get there.
I recognize that you are parroting from older lawyers, but parroting bad advice is the same as giving it.
@iwantlawschool: No one, least of all law school admissions, cares about your “soft factors.” Law schools make their money in two ways. First, they make money by people attending. Second, they make money by people applying. It so happens that prospective law students are extremely sensitive to fluctuations in USNWR ranking. USNWR ranks according to GPA and LSAT, so that’s what law school cares about. They do not care about “soft factors.” High rankings means more application fees and filling every seat in the class. Bringing on someone with low scores hurts that ranking. Your soft factors matter a lot less to law schools than money in their pockets.
URM status will definitely help you out, but with a 142 the difference will be meaningless. If nothing will dissuade you going, you should follow @HappyAlumnus advice and get a better LSAT score. Maybe one of the bottom tier schools will give you money, so you won’t have to spend more than a decade recovering.
Wow, the poster is in a difficult position. IMO, there is little chance she will get into a decent law school and probably zero chance of transferring into Columbia. If she were my daughter, I’d protect her against the trap of chasing a dream that will saddle her with insurmountable debt. If she must be a lawyer, I’d say become a paralegal and work with lawyers first for a few years while living at home. She can then save money to attend a TTT if she decides she still wants to be a lawyer and remain relatively debt free. She doesn’t test well and with her low GPA, I doubt spending at least $2,600 on Kaplan is going to raise her score appreciably. She can use that money for tuition. She can become a lawyer but must do so carefully. Unless she has financial support from home, she must avoid student loans at all cost. Otherwise, she’ll end up as another URM who gets exploited by and falls victim to the law school scams that most TTTs have become.
If you still want to attend LS, then you NEED a strong LSAT score. (A 14x is really bad score and should be a non-starter for everyone.) To be competitive to a top law school, you will probably need at least a 16x, if not 17x, and that will require solid study for months. (Soft factors primarily count as tie breakers, once your two numbers are competitive.)
To the post above that says that law schools don’t care about “soft factors”:
That is false. They certainly do care about “soft factors”, although GPA/LSAT are far more important. Once you’re within a range of being admitted based on GPA/LSAT, “soft factors” play a role.
Unfortunately being unemployed for 2 years is a negative “soft factor”. I would definitely try to find some type of employment before applying to law school, to add to a resume.
