Going to An Ivy League School Sucks-- Article

Parents Forum
121

I can’t speak for Columbia, but I can echo what JHS said about Yale then and now. I graduated from Yale in 1980, and I have a kid there now. I don’t think it’s all that different either. I don’t think there’s much more pressure academically–because I don’t think there was or is now a lot of pressure based on academics. There is more pressure for folks like pre-meds than humanities and social science majors, but academic pressure and competition is not the defining element for very many students.

I do think there is more pressure to be heavily involved in extracurriculars, and I think this is because it’s gotten so much harder to get in, and the typical student was more heavily involved in high school than when I was there. The students now tend to be more high-energy super-achiever types, and they pressure themselves. Also, there is a big element of FOMO in everything they do.

I will also note that even in my day there were some flamboyant people who included hating Yale as part of their shtick.

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Can we not make ridiculous generalizations? 40-50 years ago–and before that–“all” Ivy league students were not “wealthy” with a secured future. My father went to Yale in the 40s on a full scholarship, and he was almost literally a penniless orphan after his parents died by his second year. I knew plenty of people who were from modest and middle class backgrounds who went to these schools.

Sure, in the 70s they were still taking 100 boys per year from Andover or Exeter, but there were a lot of other people there, too.

This is complete BS. I was in the Wellesley class of 1975, which is now 40 years ago.

There was ZERO pressure to get married. NONE AT ALL. If anything, the reverse!

People should just stop making airy generalizations when they haven’t the faintest idea what they are talking about.

123

Pretty sure I never said “all.” I may have overshot by a decade or two but the financial, ethnic, and gender makeups of the Ivy League of the past were significantly different as was the economy.

I was responding to a poster who specifically asked for a generalization about how the ivies of today compare to the ivies of yesteryear.

I know someone who went to brown in the 50s on a full scholarship. He also had to wait tables for his classmates in the cafeteria and one of the fraternities wanted to give him the privilege of being J1 aka the first Jew.

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Well, when I was at Yale, many students with financial aid had jobs, including jobs in the dining hall. But they still ate in the dining hall (when they weren’t working), and they weren’t treated as pariahs.

My impression at Yale is that big changes occurred when it went co-ed, which happened long enough before I was there that it seemed entirely normal for the school to be co-ed. (Nobody ever referred to women as “co-eds,” for example.)

125

Back then, work study could include waiting on tables, sure. Today, kids may work in the cafeteria. But individual experiences and feeling can vary. It’s a somewhat uncomfortable myth that 40 or so years ago, women were pouring into colleges but really only interested in finding a spouse. That, like the idea all Ivy kids were wealthy, can be dismissive.

And really, though I now suspect Zach was trying to make an attention garnering statement (rather than some cry for help) and exaggerated, he’s dismissive, too.

126

You most definitely DID say “all.”

As for overshooting by a decade here, a decade there…sorry, but facts matter. At least do the math. :slight_smile: Be aware that you are talking about OUR actual lives.

BTW, my father did have to serve in the dining hall as part of his scholarship. Hell, way back in the day, Wellesley had a “scholarship” dorm. I have no idea when they saw the light, but it was a regular dorm like any other 45 years ago.

I remember a friend of mine who hailed from IL and graduated from Carleton back in the 70s complaining that students on scholarship got the same dorm accommodations as those whose parents were full pay. Yes, sweet midwestern Carleton, away from all those nasty elitist Northeasterners.

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you’re right - I did. My mistake. I didn’t intend to say that 0 students were on financial aid but I obviously miswrote. I apologize and you’re also right that I should let the parents who actually attended the ivies of yesteryear speak rather than speculating.

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Yesteryear?

Ok, despite that I think of yesteryear as far distant, I do see it includes “recent past.”

Just watch generalizations and we should be ok. On CC, many of us have relevant current observations, despite being old enough to be parents of college age kids

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Not in the literal sense of last year but in the figurative and someone sarcastic sense of “the good ole’ days.” Have to keep you oldies on your toes :slight_smile:

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And you’re absolutely right that that can be dismissive. Much like @pizzagirl pointed out that not all wealthy parents are healthy and supportive it was completely unfair of me (and probably for some, offensive) to say what I said. Thank you guys for calling me out. I really mean it.

131

Uhmmm…I get the feeling that while some of the sentiments may have some truth (in terms of those places actually feeling that way), that there is some (sarcasm) hyperbole being used to describe events. But duuhhh, of course many elite schools are over-rated and come with issues that catch many by surprised who were just dazzled by the magic dust that is their marketing campaigns (a fun time and success awaits you…), but what school doesn’t. No one talks about the academics at some of these elite schools…I would sure as hell like to hear about that for once as opposed to the social environment. We all know that academic pressure for those outside of the sciences at these schools is kind of non-existent because of the lax grading standards (and this isn’t limited to elites). However, one may also argue that many of them even water down the science and gen. ed. curriculum to some, if not a large degree, but that is merely a sign of the times.

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“If you thrive on being cutthroat and your self-worth is strongly tied to society’s definition of prestige, then the Ivys are the right “fit”. Most others would likely be better off attending a LAC.”

Generally speaking, my D has found more pressure at her elite LAC than my S has at his elite university. I would not necessarily characterize LACs as uniformly more nurturing.

A lot of this is also personal. Different people stress about different things in life. As I see how my children have handled college, one of them is better than the other in the ability to say “ok, time to close the books for now and go have some fun with friends; the books will be there when I return.” Frankly I was never very good at doing that either, which I regret. But that’s not something to lay at the foot of the school; that’s personal.

133

Sorry to almost completely go off topic, but there is one line that does resonate with me:

“Many students, especially children of immigrants (like me), conflate the American dream with going to an Ivy”.

As the eldest son of immigrants from West Africa, I couldn’t agree with this more. My parents thought that in the beginning of junior year, with a 2.7 W GPA and before any SAT scores, that I could STILL shoot for an Ivy. They want the goal to be for me to attend an Ivy for my MBA. Well, what if I want to go to UNC Chapel Hill or Wake Forest? Part of me doesn’t EVER want to come back to the Northeast.

134

The main problem I have with these discussions is when people seem to lionize their schools no matter what. It somewhat reminds me of religious zealotry.

It’s like, yes, you might have had a good time at your alma mater. But please don’t project your experience onto others and assert that if they didn’t experience things the same way you did, the problem must have been on their end.

Some people seem to be absolutely unwilling to acknowledge any criticisms of their alma mater. I encountered something similar back when Penn State was going through the whole Paterno thing. Same sort of logic applies. The upsides do not magically erase the downsides.

135

Thank you to @prosaic in #106.

This thread has been a reminder of why I haven’t posted on CC in a very long time. I stop by occasionally to see what may be of value in the pre-med threads, and I noticed this thread because a young man I helped with the college search had emailed me the article in question and so I was familiar with the article.

I see that much of the knee-jerk defensiveness, defenses of elitism, riffs on what classes of people suffer more, etc carry on per usual.

The kid wrote an interesting article. He wrote about a particular take on the Ivy (and elite college) experiences that, at a minimum, contains very important grains of truth. It’s not an indictment of Columbia per se, but a comment on aspects of the arms race towards the most elite schools and some of the effects therein.

Do folks not know that Adderall is common on college campuses across the country? Is it a surprise to hear in the lottery-like environment of elite college admissions that kids (and their parents) can become obsessed with resume-building, EC-building, GPA and SAT worrying, etc? And is it a surprise that there are pressures that influence social interactions and how one chooses to spend his or her time once on campus? Doesn’t it make sense that we’ve evolved into a culture where, and very much because of the astronomical costs and trend towards concrete, measurable production in general, the end-product trumps all? Where the ultimate [career] goal trumps any nostalgic exploring and discovering “who you are” sidetracks along the way? Don’t some of us wish our kids could go down a wrong turn or two and treat college as a place to try on many different relationships, ideas, and paths, but we’re understandably nervous in the meantime about the end result of our 250K investment (and even if we don’t like it have to adjust ourselves to the undeniable undertow towards a pretty direct (and concrete) ROI?

I took the article for what it was. I enjoyed it. Much of it rang true, while knowing that it was being written from a certain angle. If I was a professor I would WANT this kid to express himself, to express his views, and then to go even further in exploring (both with himself as a cultural phenomenon) some of his insights and perceptions. Why are there assumptions about the kid being unhappy, or unproductive? Do we know that? The kid is a rising senior. He’s still there. I’d guess he’s going to be “successful.” Didn’t he also write this?

“Just because you go to an Ivy doesn’t mean you’re what I’ve talked about above. I know people who’ve overcome insane circumstances, poverty, and discrimination to get here. I know people who came from the elite upper-class and are still incredibly interesting, ambitious, and good-hearted.”

Please note that I’m responding as a very happy parent of a kid who just graduated from college. He’s a few feet away furiously studying for the new MCAT that he takes in a few days. If I read an article right now critical of my kid’s school I too would be defensive and would say most of it doesn’t reflect my kid’s overall experience. But on the other hand I also know that elements would be true, and that my kid handled those elements, and indeed HAD to to handle them in order to remain viable for his ultimate goals. And in the meantime, it’s fair to ask what goals might he had uncovered if the game was played a little differently, and if the environment wasn’t so driven towards the linear.

Given what we like to think college should be, there is quite frankly considerable intolerance. I mean really? I kid can’t write a thoughtful (albeit provocative…and since when did provocative become out of bounds…and what does THAT mean?) piece without getting smacked around like a two year old?

It seems many don’t want to hear a negative word about their iconic institutions. I recently, and for the first time in 30+ years, sent an alumni update to my own college. It was a riff on the Class/Alumni Notes genre. The editors edited out the riff part, and with sweet consistency, made sure my offering sounded just as routine and narcissistic as everyone else’s.

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^There’s nothing more wrong with the NE than other places. Lots of smart, interested folks. But scratch the surface and you find the same issues as everywhere. A lot of families start their college thinking with the obvious, whether that’s a beloved local school, a favorite sports school, or a media darling.

And there’s nothing more inherently wrong with Columbia or other Ivies than the rest of the schools out there. Beware stereotypes. Yeah, the bar is higher at some colleges- not just admissions, also the ongoing academic expectations.

137

Haven’t gone through all nine pages, but it’s interesting to note how well Vice works. This article–like most Vice articles–is written specifically to exaggerate and over dramatize and lead to a nine-page discussion on CC that surely resulted in a lot of ad revenue for them.

Say what you will about the author, but in this case he did his job.

138

Again, total, complete, utter BS.

Will it ever stop?

139

That’s a hoot.

I actually tried to write the one update I ever provided to my alumni magazine in the correct “form,” and they not only could not restrain themselves from editing it, they CHANGED my actual job title, because I guess it didn’t meet their “standards.” And including a gift with the announcement didn’t earn me exemption from the heavy hand either! :wink:

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Love the way “he’s studying for the MCAT”–a completely unnecessary detail–was slipped in there. Don’t worry: we all got the message.