Goldwater scholarship - What do you know?

Parents Forum
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<p>It is indeed a great honor for someone to be nominated. Cur and others should be proud. One way to look at the significance of being nominated by a college is that the college's vetting process validates one's package (grades, recommendations and such) so regardless of winning at the national level, nominees should realize that they have a great start in college and are well ahead of their peers. </p>

<p>If you look at Goldwater winners, you will see that they are geographically diverse. There is some institutional diversity, but I suspect that stems more from the geographic diversity than a deliberate effort. In fact, within a state, the vast majority of winners come from the flagship universities (public or private, depending on the state) in that area. </p>

<p>Regarding community college winners, I scanned a few winners lists, and could find only one, but I admit I did not give each list a close read. </p>

<p>One rather odd fact in this process, at least to me, is that the winners get posted on the web before the winners are personally notified, although the institutions know at least a week earlier (to give them time to prepare press releases?) So I find it ironic that the scholarsare among the last to know!</p>

<p>In addition to the scholarship $$, there are other benefits to being a scholar, including knowledge of graduate school opportunities that are not well publicized because they aim at academically elite students.</p>

<p>Good luck to all.</p>

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<p>cur, Ben Golub who used to frequent the caltech board was a Goldwater Scholar in 2006 <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/california-institute-technology/161877-congratulations-ben-golub.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/california-institute-technology/161877-congratulations-ben-golub.html&lt;/a> I think he's at Stanford now but still pops by from time to time. He's always been really helpful with questions about Caltech - I'd imagined he'd be willing to answer questions for you. Good luck</p>

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<p>Cookiemom:</p>

<p>These awards are very prestigious. Not to take anything away from students who are very high caliber student. But when I am looking overall winner some top notch candidates belonging from very competitive states like NY, CA or MA (or similar) are overlooked in favor of students from a state like Louisiana or South Dakota. This is again and again show in Rhodes scholarship candidates that many students from less competitive states go and appear in their home states Rhodes committees rather than a state like MA, NY, or CA where they attend colleges and improve their chances to win the awards. </p>

<p>Hypothesis
“Even awards are meritorious in nature, but like college admissions kids coming from less competitive state have much bigger advantages over kids coming from less competitive states even though both may be of same caliber students.”</p>

<p>These factors may also have hurt your kid’s chances. I bet if your kid was coming from South dakota he would have won this award.</p>

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<p>Stockmarket,</p>

<p>There is no question that awards like the Goldwater and the Rhodes (even the Marshall) attempt to get geographic dispersion for the awards. The Goldwater deliberately spreads the awards among a number of districts. Candidates for the Rhodes and Marshall can apply to the committee covering either their state of residence or where there college is located.</p>

<p>What complicates this attempt at geographic diversity is that kids from elite private schools live all over the country. Needless to say, Harvard would encourage its apps to apply in regions other than that covering MA, less all its stars just compete with one another. (Curiously, Stanford has a tough time wiht this, because so many of its students come from CA.) So in spite of these diversity efforts, the elites take a disproportionate share of the awards.</p>

<p>This is less so for the Goldwater, since there is a limit of 4 nominees. Rhodes and Marshall do not limit, although colleges rank their applicants in an endorsement letter.</p>

<p>So, I think it is unfair to say nominees for the Goldwater "from very competitive states like NY, CA or MA (or similar) are overlooked in favor of students from a state like Louisiana or South Dakota." That is just NOT how it works. In fact, if you look at the data, the states that do worse than the national average, in proportion to population are (in order starting with the worst) are: Florida, Utah, Nevada, Louisiana, Tennessee, Texas, W. Virginia, Georgia, Michigan, California, Indiana, Arizona, Maryland, S. Carolina, Illinois, N.J., and Missouri. You tell me what these states have in common? FWIW, the states that did the best are, in order, Montana, S. Dakota, NH, Idaho, RI, Oregon, Delaware, maine, Kansas and Virginia. Again, what do these have in common? (in truth, the states that did the worst were Hawaii and Wyoming, with NO winners.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So, I think it is unfair to say nominees for the Goldwater "from very competitive states like NY, CA or MA (or similar) are overlooked in favor of students from a state like Louisiana or South Dakota."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is my opinion and it is not facts.</p>

<p>The hypothesis was for Rhodes scholar - may not hold water for Goldwater. </p>

<p>Rhodes only select two kids from each district. The many kids who hail from MA, NY, CA actaully competes against each other. For that reason many kids choose to compete in thier home state rather than where they attend school. If many of these kids from NY, CA or MA are allowed to compte in other states, I would say they will take chances away from local district kids. But this geographic diversity is actally hurting the best kids even though they have made some adjustments on population density basis.</p>

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<p>For those on the thread who were interested in what happens to a Goldwater scholarship (up to a max of $7500) when a student has a scholarship that covers "tuition and fees, room and board", check out this link : <a href="http://www.act.org/goldwater/pdfdoc/payment.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.act.org/goldwater/pdfdoc/payment.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>My version ;) with edited highights follows:</p>

<p>There are 4 areas only that Goldwater money can be used . By the form (and instructions) linked it appears the winner "list costs for the next academic year" in those 4 areas.</p>

<p>1) Tuition : "list amount charged for courses you will take during the entire year". (Two semesters AND a summer session? A summer session abroad sponsored by your college? A semester abroad? By another college? )
2.) Books (up to a maximum of $800)
3.) Fees (only those fees paid by ALL students)
4.) Room and board (They don't pay "actual" R+B expenses, they pay based on "an average for that type of housing as reported by the FA director of the college".)</p>

<p>The FA director needs to sign off on these numbers. </p>

<p>Then from those numbers the amount received in scholarship or waiver is subtracted, leaving you with "X" which is divided in half and a payment made in July and (whenever) it appears to be made directly to the student. </p>

<p>What's my take on all this? If someone was fortunate enough to receive such an honor, then it is certainly possible they **could<a href="I%20did%20not%20say%20would">/b</a> receive a financial benefit in addition to their school scholarship under these rules. Clearly, there is the book award for a student who has to pay for their own books. A student could also make it a point to make sure the FA director knew to include the tuition and average room and board costs of their Maymester Program, and the additional costs (not covered by their institutional scholarship) of the on campus apartment they will have junior and senior year.</p>

<p>Another student could choose to have the FA office consider a summer program cost, or a semester abroad cost, or possibly the cost of a single room, or a higher than already provided meal plan. Still another may ask the FA office to calculate "off campus" or "private" housing costs (as authorized by the form itself) if that is where they will be living. </p>

<p>I certainly don't know all the possible permutations or even if any/all of these are acceptable to the Goldwater folks or even applicable at the hypothetical school, but it would be nice to have a reason to find out. ;)</p>

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<p>If all expenses are already paid: I wonder if the school would just use the Goldwater scholarship money first and reduce the students usual school scholarship by that amount. Therefore the school "wins" twice (financially and award wise) and the student is still able to compete for a national award even if he does not need the money as an undergrad. Just thinking things through.</p>

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<p>Nope, sax. The way the GW form works, the scholarship monies from sources other than the GW are subtracted from "allowable costs" (as defined by the GW form) BEFORE the GW funds are paid out directly to the student. If allowable costs are less than or equal to the institutional or 3rd party scholarship, no GW funds are expended for items A-D, the only permissible items.(The four items above: tuition, fees, books, and room and board.)</p>

<p>It appears that the only benefit the school derives is recognition.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, it is obvious that by the time you finish applying your usual level of diligence on the potential uses of scholarship money, you'll know all about the inner workings and secrets of how to apply outside money. </p>

<p>One issue to keep in mind is that a difference has to be made between the type of scholarship one does have before earning an additional scholarship. Separating the need-based portion from the overall scholarship is important because of the limitations of using money to cover a part of one's EFC. In so many words, if there is ANY need based financial aid, you are out of luck to reduce the EFC. However, if a student has FA that is 100% merit based (no hybrid or need based wrap-up) he or she might be able to reduce the EFC. </p>

<p>My take on this (without attention to specific elements of the Goldwater) is that all benefits would simply flow towards the coffers of the schools if a student has a scholarship. However, scholarship organizations are keenly interested in seeing their dollars ONLY benefit students as opposed to schools. A few scholarship groups have started to include language that specifically prohibit schools to assign their funds to items that do not help students. There is no right or wrong here; it's only money!</p>

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<p>Goldwater pays directly to the student, so the college has no chance to grab the money.</p>

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<p>Xiggi. Look again at the "specific elements of the Goldwater". ;) IMO the Goldwater folks have avoided that pitfall.</p>

<p>As to the "need-based" part of your post and how the competing "you pay first" edicts would play out? I have zero ideas. My first guess is to say that the way the GW form is prepared, need based aid MIGHT treat the GW money differently. But like I said, I'm just guessing.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Goldwater pays directly to the student, so the college has no chance to grab the money.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If it only were that simple! :)</p>

<p>When it comes to financial aid, it really makes no difference if the check is sent to the student, the school, or her grandma. As long as the school pays ANY expense of the student (from need based help) it remains in control. Schools do ask a student to report ALL his or her outside help and uses the figures to adjust the amount of financial aid. Even if they can't grab it at the source, the finaid officers can (and do) make adjustments almost as they please. </p>

<p>Please remember that scholarships are reported on tax returns and that financial aid officer DO see the tax returns and ask for W2 and other forms. If you get scholarship money, the school will find out. Not reporting it correctly could cost you your current help.</p>

<p>It is obvious that some negotiations might take place**. However, if you'd look at the discussions regarding Gates Millennium versus Brown, you might see how the schools apply outside scholarship money. Inasmuch as Gates does WANT to replace all of the self-help, Brown does NOT want to reduce the student summer earnings. At best, a compromise is reached by letting the student use the "extra" funding to purchase a computer. However, this is turn violates the Gates scholarship. Large scholarships such as the Coca-Cola go as far as offering a seminar to their grantees on how to keep as much of the scholarship money as possible. This does not stop the college to still "grab it" by not reducing the self-help (summer earning expectation.)</p>

<p>** or the amount of the grant to be adjusted to eliminate any positive impact for a student</p>

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<p>Congratulations on D's nomination, Curmudgeon! So maybe her housing for next year will be in a luxury condo with a nice hot tub on the deck?</p>

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<p>This is from the instructions on the form:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Source: List all scholarships and grants you will receive for the NEXT YEAR from all sources (except family, Veteran’s
Administration, loans, work-study, or your own employment). You should include School Scholarships, Fellowships, Tuition
Waivers, Basic Educational Opportunity Grants, Rotary Club Awards, and other similar forms of support.</p>

<p>Purpose of Award: Indicate whether the awards are granted for tuition, fees, books, room and board, or an
UNDESIGNATED grant that may be applied to all costs including additional expenses. Do not include transportation costs.
Amount: Include those amounts that are applicable to the NEXT YEAR. Note: Failure to list all awards or to notify the Foundation immediately of any additional awards may result in the loss of the scholarship and prosecution by the U.S. Department of Justice. If you have more than six awards, list them on an additional sheet.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with xig that something has got to give. The school (or 3rd party scholarship folks) and the Goldwater folks I'm sure know how they'll deal with this. I just don't know how they resolve the competing interests for a 100% need kid , or a kid with some merit aid and some need. But again. This has to happen every year. Someone knows this answer, it just ain't me.</p>

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<p>SS. I don't know anywhere that a
[quote]
luxury condo with a nice hot tub on the deck

[/quote]
is "average" in FA's mind but...we'll burn that bridge down if she comes to it. ;)</p>

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<p>Xiggi, </p>

<p>the Goldwater is rather a curious hybrid of pure merit and need based, IMHO. It is very nice for parents paying full freight, and almost as nice for parents who still shell out more than $7,500 for tuition, room and board. But I suspect someone getting a full ride will not see any $$.</p>

<p>At the same time, the benefits of winning are far more than financial. One chem prof told me he "could not imagine a grad program turning down a Goldwater". He had several winners from his lab, BTW. </p>

<p>So we can discuss at length how payment is calculated, fin aid offsets, reporting, enforcement and such. But:</p>

<p>Winning is nice. Money is even better. But winning without money is still nice.</p>

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<p>


IMO that will depend on what expenses are paid pursuant to that specific "full ride" scholarship. Some scholarships we consider full rides pay tuition and fees , room and board UP TO a certain level only. Some pay the same things and throw in other things (specifically a book award). Some give you a free meal plan and housing that is at a lower rate than other meal plans or housing. Some include an unlimited meal plan and all rooms cost the same. Some cap the number of credits included per term. I don't think you know until you fill out the form at the specific school and the FA folks do their part.</p>

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<p>NMD, I could not agree more. My comments only served to illustrate that students who receive non-merit financial aid rarely benefit from winning "extra-scholarship" money. Obviously, the honor and prestige obscures the financial windfall. </p>

<p>Fwiw, it is a public secret that schools love to present and discuss the level of merit aid given in a year, but rarely disclose that its true impact on the total contributions of a family is usually not very relevant for families receiving need-based aid. </p>

<p>This said, that does not cheapen the value and prestige of winning an award. A fact that you and Curmudgeon are fully aware of!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
IMO that will depend on what expenses are paid pursuant to that specific "full ride" scholarship.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bingo! And, again, it ALL depends on the financial elements of your "full ride" and if the school uses any federal aid to "reimburse itself."</p>

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<p>
[quote]
rarely disclose that its true impact on the total contributions of a family is usually not very relevant for families receiving need-based aid.

[/quote]
<br>
xig. I am sure you remember the show "The Scholar" where the kids were competing for "scholarships" to any school they wanted (and got in)? A portable free-ride I believe we'd call it? </p>

<p>I said every episode how horrible it was that someone didn't come on that show and point out that the "poorer" kids among them (and there were some poor as churchmouse kids), weren't getting a dime extra than what they would have received at a 100% of need no-loan, no w/s , no summer contribution school (admittedly there are few, but there are some). This is much the same thing. I also wondered if the producers "knew that" and also wondered if it played a role. Did they have the clause or rule keeping the school from taking the money? Makes it cheap on the producers if they knew that and a poor kid wins. </p>

<p>I am just speculating. I have zero data. Just commenting on the perception possibly differing from the reality.</p>