<p>Well, believe it or not, a lot of students from Hotel go into finance and consulting too.</p>
<p>Norcalguy,</p>
<p>“Cornell students are worse at getting into top med schools, law schools, and banks than students at other top colleges. Cornell students (on average) simply aren’t as smart.”</p>
<p>What do you rely on for these assertions? The SAT is not an IQ test and how could anyone reliably compare placement rates in these areas given the gaming of college placement statistics. At least the anecdotal evidence medical placement issues exist at other prestigious schools (see Chicago thread re only 40% medical acceptance rate) and in this down market other Ivies are not burning up the world in terms of job placement.</p>
<p>TheDartmouth.com: Approx. 25 percent of seniors receive jobs </p>
<p>[Brown</a> Alumni Magazine - For Love and Money](<a href=“For Love and Money | Brown Alumni Magazine”>For Love and Money | Brown Alumni Magazine) </p>
<p>As for law, I used to be on the hiring committee at a major DC law firm that believed Cornell had a top notch law school, but did not travel to Ithaca because it is so out of the way and instead hired Cornell grads at a NYC consortium. </p>
<p>I assume you are from Northern California, and do you think that its distance from Cornell may explain your perception of the school’s prestige. I suspect that this areas knowledge of Cornell is not much different from its knowledge of the Ivies other than HYP. </p>
<p>In any event, given all of its specialized schools, has there been any movement at Cornell to publish the statistics of each school individually. If done that way, I suspect, the College’s statistics would mirror most of its Ivy brethren save for HYP. When I went to Georgetown for undergrad, each school published its individual stats and this helped the College and the School of Foreign Service compete for students also interested in Ivies, Duke, and Hopkins etc.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>um…statistics? Cornell publishes its med school and law school data (both in terms of average LSAT/MCAT scores as well as acceptance rates to med school and law school). The numbers are worse than they are for, say, Dartmouth or Duke or Penn. This is not surprising because law and medicine are largely individual endeavors. If you look at med school acceptance rates, there is a direct correlation between the % and the quality of the entering student body. Harvard, Princeton, Yale have 95% acceptance rates to med school. Dartmouth, Duke, Penn, etc. have 80%+. Cornell is at high 60’s-low 70’s. Michigan and Berkeley are in the high 50’s-low 60’s.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No it’s not. But, SAT scores and GPAs are the only objective measure of student quality. Are you telling me, you don’t actually think Cornell’s student body is inferior to Dartmouth’s or Columbia’s?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Source? University of Chicago is one of those schools that holds its data very close to the vest. Even their own students don’t have that kind of info. The numbers I quoted from Penn, Duke, UMich, etc. all come from publically published data. I can guarantee you that UChicago’s acceptance rate is at least 60% tho. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>um…I am a Cornell alumnus. I’m quite familiar with Cornell’s prestige. lol But, your assumption is wrong. 5 years internationally, 7 years in California, 5 years on the East Coast, and 9 years in the Midwest. I’m actually quite well traveled.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with Cornell’s prestige. I just said that its PA score is high. There’s a problem with Cornell’s students and admissions selectivity. That’s what this whole thread is about. Cornell has started to slip in the rankings already. It needs to be careful if it wants to get the best students. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cornell does publish its data by college. But, as I just wrote, its “specialized” schools are not so specialized. Cornell’s med school applicants come from CALS, HumEc, and CAS. Cornell’s law school applicants come from ILR and CAS. Cornell’s business applicants come from CALS, Engineering, CAS. The most popular career paths for Cornell students is still medicine, business, and law. Same as at Harvard. Or Duke. Or any peer institution. Consequently, Cornellians need to stop justifying the admissions policies of the so-called ‘specialized schools.’</p>
<p>
Haha, thanks. Despite my SAT score, I don’t really possess a vast amount of knowledge about everything like the average Cornellian. I had a pretty crappy elementary and junior high education so my foundation throughout high school (and possibly even now) isn’t too strong. Fortunately I’m studious now that I’m not distracted. I worry because I’d hate to go to Cornell and get owned, or even worse add to this perception of “dumbness” at Cornell.</p>
<p>Speaking of which, Cornell should accept the best students it can. Maybe leave like 5-10% of people for “interesting” recruits, URMS, ORMS, etc.</p>
<p>Oh and, @ norcalguy</p>
<p>
What a beast.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>norcalguy, the funny thing is that the SAT scores for Architecture students are actually higher than those for Ag/HumEc last time I checked. Hotel, of course, is the lowest though.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Oldfort, I still can’t believe you’re adamantly refusing to change sides. We have provided PLENTY of evidence that Cornell’s whole “fit-based” criteria is a load of bs and has done nothing for the school except lower its SAT averages/rank/reputation/etc. Are you really throwing in that Harvard example? Really? Their SAT averages are in the 2300range while Cornell’s is under 2100, which is frankly embarrassing for an Ivy school. Of course Harvard admits low scorers, but they actually have something incredibly unique to offer to the school. The ones Cornell admits I frankly don’t see any reason why they got in while the 2300 valedictorian didn’t. That’s our point. If you still fail to see how acceptance rates and SAT averages have a big impact on the rankings and attracting top students for future classes, I really really don’t know what to tell you.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Cortana, sorry if our bickering has turned your enthusiasm off a bit. Don’t worry. Cornell is wonderful in so many factors and there certainly are genius-level people here that will blow your mind away. We’re just talking about a small subset of the student body. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Indeed he does. But sadly, he seems to be the ONLY guy with the power to do something about it who actually gets it. I remember Skorton addressing that there was no need to market Cornell more aggressively cause it was already rejecting enough people. He said Cornell’s acceptance rate was fine, and he wanted to offer the Cornell education to even more people. </p>
<p>Obviously, Skorton doesn’t get it, or he doesn’t think they’re important when they are. He doesn’t get that acceptance rates and SAT scores impact rankings and future students. If I didn’t know any better, I would say that he was a spy hired by Dartmouth and Brown to become president and screw up Cornell’s ranking ;). </p>
<p>Honestly, norcalguy, you should really like send the highlights of this thread without the harsher statements to Provost Fuchs or something. I think he is the key to changing this whole mess since he’s the only guy who thinks like us - the rest of the heads all seem to be replicas of oldfort and monydad. I honestly would bet anything that alumni donations would actually increase if Cornell’s rankings went up. </p>
<p>Also, norcalguy, you are a beast. I’ve probably only met a handful of kids here who are smarter than you.</p>
<p>And to add, I think Fuchs is making some progress as this year’s ED acceptees are actually pretty solid, comprising a lot of high stat people. I really couldn’t see much difference between them and the acceptees for Penn/Dartmouth/Brown. I nearly threw up when I saw last year’s ED thread as 2300s were getting rejected left and right and the majority of acceptances were <2100 people with nothing standing out.</p>
<p>
I think Cornell gets donation.
[Billionaire</a> Alum Unveiled as Cornell’s $350M Donor for Tech Campus - DNAinfo.com](<a href=“http://www.dnainfo.com/20111220/upper-east-side/billionaire-alum-unveiled-as-cornells-350m-donor-for-tech-campus]Billionaire”>Billionaire Alum Unveiled as Cornell's $350M Donor for Tech Campus - Upper East Side & Roosevelt Island - New York - DNAinfo)
Wonder how he did on his SAT? </p>
<p>I made up the Harvard example, playing off Lazykid’s silly Harvard thread and norcalguy’s post. I have no idea what’s Harvard’s minimum SAT.</p>
<p>wavedasher - why don’t YOU take this thread and show it to some senior administrators at Cornell. You are still on campus right? Come back to let us their feedback.</p>
<p>You notice something oldfort? It’s only the older folks like you and monydad (when he was still here) that absolutely refuse any change and still spout the “stay true to its original motto” bs. You guys might not like it, but sometimes, change is good, especially if it’s for the better of the OVERALL university. Welcome to the 21st century.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Hahahaha. You really should take intro stats again like lazykid mentioned. Your sample sizes keep getting smaller and smaller. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates dropped out of college to become billionaires. We should obviously do the same…right? One outlier doesn’t change anything if you still don’t get what I’m trying to tell you. Feeney donated for the tech campus, not for keeping Cornell admissions the same. Did you really think that your Feeney argument refutes my claim that donations would increase if Cornell’s rank improved? No, it doesn’t. It’s been proven at UChicago and Penn that donations increase when rank improves cause alumni like to see their alma mater move up in the world. Feeney would’ve donated that sum even if Cornell was rank 5, so your statement proved/disproved nothing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’ve tried emailing them, which resulted in either no reply or a rehash of your own beliefs about “Cornell carefully screens its applicants” and “Cornell is selective enough and practices more of a fit-based model”. Conclusion - it led to nothing. I was thinking norcalguy would have more luck since he’s an alumnus and would probably word his outline better. Also, I haven’t tried Provost Fuchs yet, so maybe that should be the next step.</p>
<p>I didn’t go up to them directly cause frankly, I don’t want to hear all that nonsense about “fit-based model” up front. I might actually end up in a huge argument, which probably wouldn’t be good if I’m still a student. I’m sorry I’m not more like your perfect daughter. </p>
<p>P.S. For someone who’s a parent of two and in an authoritative position in a company I presume (since you hire people), you seem pretty stubborn and somewhat immature, not to mention you disagree with us yet are unable to refute any of the points we’re making.</p>
<p>wavedasher - You emailed them, great effort. They gave you the same answered as I did. Let me think about this for a minute…why would they do that…maybe us old folks are just stupid and immature. </p>
<p>Yes, I do some hiring (on a good day, but I have known to do some firing too).
I am just kind of thinking what I would say if someone presented this thread to me at work. Oh, I said it up thread already, “Get a life.”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I got into Cornell when I was a high school senior. I took Georgetown because I thought it was a better fit back when I was a senior in high school. Later I found out that Georgetown Fin Aid sucks and I couldn’t afford to attend it anymore so I had to transfer to other schools that were either 1) cheaper, or 2) gave me better fin aid. </p>
<p>Needless to say, I got into Cornell’s Arts and Science college from freaking Georgetown and I attended Cornell from Sophomore year until I graduated, and I had good stats to show for. (3.8 GPA at G-town, 2200+ on SAT,etc) Clearly, I am not one of those ■■■■■■■ who transferred from community college to Cornell’s state school like Ag School or ILR with like 21 on ACT.</p>
<p>Also, the more I read your posts, the more I think you are dumb. You were sooooo freaking clueless on law school admissions and yet you launched ad hominem attacks against me for correcting your ridiculously misled belief on law school admissions. You kept on saying 'going to a X,Y,Z college will help you get into Harvard Law School". LOL!!!</p>
<p>You are very immature and yet old, which is sad. Don’t try to criticize my views or norcalguy’s views. If you don’t like what we are saying, fine, don’t read our posts. No one is forcing you to. We have every right, as alums, to express concerns about our university and we have our Alma Mater’s best interest deep within our heart. To suggest how it can improve is no doing harm. Obviously, Cornell admissions has f-ed up and it has negatively impacted its perception as well as its rankings. It is undeniable that its admissions policy isn’t the best, and Cornell can do better.</p>
<p>Like many of the other posters in this thread, as a freshman at Cornell right now, I am tired of the “fit-based” and idealistic crap that Cornell keeps on spewing out. Plunging down the rankings and falling behind in selectivity is going to hurt this institution far more than abandoning any downsides to abandoning their current model.</p>
<p>You started a thread about how Harvard’s admission was screwed up too. It was shut down because everyone on there told you that you were not making any sense, and they were also tired of you attacking everyone, more specifically athletes and URMs. What are you going to do, start a similar threat at every college forum?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As you can tell, I am not a fan of affirmative action nor giving huge admissions boost to sports recruits with terrible SAT scores. Affirmative action is ridiculous. What does it matter if a lawyer or doctor is white, hispanic, or black? When I get surgery, I want to get surgery from the most qualified doctor possible, regardless of his or her skin color. Same logic goes on for any profession. I know of one black guy from Cornell who had 3.5 GPA and 165 LSAT. And, he got into Harvard Law. If a white guy had those credentials, he would be completely shut out of any of top 20 law schools and as a result, that white guy in question won’t have much of a chance to get a top lawyer job at a large NYC corporate law firm, since those law firms only recruit from top 10-14 law schools. Things like this isn’t really fair and I don’t think this kind of policy benefits our society nor citizens at large. </p>
<p>However, this is besides the point, away from Cornell’s admissions policy. Obviously, Cornell also practices affirmative action, but it does many other crap that other elite schools don’t do on top of affirmative action and accepting under-qualified sports recruits, such as accepting an army of transfer students from community colleges despite horribly low SAT scores, en masse. </p>
<p>Cornell’s admissions policy has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, out of all Ivies, maybe the worst among top 50 universities as a whole. What other university repetitively rejects highly qualified applicants in Freshmen admissions only to end up accepting much less qualified transfer students from community colleges later on, who don’t even submit SAT scores? It is so f-ed up that it boggles my mind.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have a tremendous amount of respect to those who got into a medical school, such as norcalguy. A career in medicine is arguably the most honorable and humanitarian field, in addition to requiring a great deal of commitment, intelligence, hard work, and passion. </p>
<p>And, Medicine >>>>>>>>>>>>> Law. I say this as a future law student. Honestly, if I was good at science, I wouldn’t think twice about going into law. I had a 3.8 GPA at Cornell, but I was an Econ major. If I majored in chemistry, physics, computer science, or engineering, I would have gotten absolutely raped.</p>
<p>(P.S. - @ norcalguy - how did you get over 4.0 at Cornell as a premed student?? That is a remarkable accomplishment. I did not know of anyone at Cornell who had such sick stats)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I just love how you address one point out of like 10 I’ve made throughout this thread and only respond to that. I’m tired of arguing with you. You’re pretty set on your beliefs, so I won’t bother continuing since you seem to be ignoring most of the stuff I’ve been saying. Let me just say that there are people out there who believe the world will end in 2012. Just because they believe this is fact doesn’t make it so - just like you believing Cornell isn’t doing anything wrong doesn’t mean it isn’t.</p>
<p>Also, I would never want to work for a company where the heads didn’t give a **** about feedback and constructive criticism from its own employees cause they stubbornly refuse to change. Sony was once the industry leader in electronics, esp. televisions. They were satisfied with their long-time model and didn’t adapt when LCD technology came out. Guess what? The unthinkable happened. Now, Samsung and even LG are the industry leaders. It doesn’t matter how big you are, if you don’t adapt to change, you’ll eventually have competitors that overtake you. Even the almighty Harvard would eventually fall if it implemented the bs admissions policies that you and Cornell seem to love so much.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I was thinking the same… I hope the company oldfort works at isn’t big nor employs many people. I fear for the well being of those employees who supposedly work under her supervision.</p>
<p>Lazykid,</p>
<p>Would your view differ re undergrad if the “black kid” had come from a single parent home with poor schools and had still managed to get 90 percentile SATs and strong grades at the school? Don’t you think that kid has more potential than a child from an upper class family, a great school district or private schooling, and private tutoring with SATs higher by say 100 - 150 points?</p>
<p>In any event, you and Norcalguy make good points re Cornell and the community college transfers etc, and I did not realize that most of the top kids at Cornell were not concentrated in the College. Still, as long as this is not hurting Cornell’s prestige (ie Cornell stills ranks ahead of several Ivies re reputation in USNWR), is there a major problem? I would think beating Stanford out for the NYC project will elevate Cornell in the science world, where in my view it is already the #3 Ivy behind Harvard and slightly behind Princeton. Also, some of the reason for the lower SATs – the architecture and hotel schools – actually bring lots of prestige to Cornell because they are #1 programs. Would you be in favor of Cornell admitting more Int’ls where it could probably get lots of 800s and perfect GPAs? Also, re the ED rejections/acceptances, don’t you think the reporting in CC is geared toward outliers re the 2100s that got in and the 2300s that did not?</p>
<p>Still, a very interesting post about, in my view, the most interesting of the top 20 schools re reputation etc.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, for several reasons.</p>
<p>1) Most of URM admits to top law schools, top colleges, or top medical schools have SUBSTANTIALLY lower credentials than non-URM counterparts. If a black kid gets a minor extra boost to his/her application to a top college or a top law school, maybe I could agree with that policy. What is happening today is that white people with near perfect stats are getting rejected to elite law schools and elite colleges, while an army of URM kids with stats far below are getting in, en masse.</p>
<p>2) Out of American population that lives in poverty, white people constitute much higher portion of poverty compared to blacks or hispanics as a whole. Last time I checked, these white kids who come from impoverished family backgrounds don’t get any slack regarding admissions to elite law, medical schools, nor elite colleges. Basically, if you are born as a poor white kid in good ole USA, you are screwed for life most likely. </p>
<p>Yet, it is ridiculous that a black or hispanic kid gets so much boost to admissions game that it isn’t even funny. If a hispanic dude who has rich parents applies to Harvard Law, regardless of his financial background, that guy stands ten times better chance of admission just because he counts as ‘hispanic’, while in real life he may look very much alike a white dude. (a lot of hispanic people look kind of white because a lot of hispanics have mixed bloods with white races)</p>
<p>3) If affirmative action’s pure purpose is to assist those from impoverished and disadvantaged social groups to achieve success at higher than average rate, then that policy should be implemented with regards to one’s socioeconomic background, not ethnic background. Like I mentioned, most of poor people in USA are white people and these people don’t get any slack with elite colleges or elite professional schools’ admissions. Yet, any rich black guy or hispanic guy with a pulse and decent work ethic will get into Harvard Law.</p>
<p>4) In the professional world, we need people who are there because they’re most qualified, not because of their color of skin. It is sad that a white guy or Asian guy may not get into a medical school and may have to give up becoming a doctor, when a black or hispanic guy with far lower intelligence may get in and end up becoming a doctor. Like I said, I don’t care about the color of skin of my surgeon when I am getting that heart surgery. I want the most qualified doctor doing work on my surgery. Also, I want the most qualified lawyer defending my interests and rights, I want the most qualified pilot when I board on an airplane, etc, regardless of the color of skin of any individual.</p>
<p>Affirmative action at large discourages meritocracy and promotes mediocre labor force within professionals. Our country is quickly losing its edge to others such as China, Japan, and India, and right now we need to allocate our resources efficiently and need to focus on recruiting and training best talents for each professional career track in order to stay competitive.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Trust me, Cornell’s questionable admissions policy has hurt Cornell’s rep and prestige quite a bit over the years.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why not? International students are good for our university. They bring diversity, culture, and large chunk of tuition money to our school. Not to mention, most of international students who get into Cornell are highly qualified academically.</p>
<p>omg… i just wanted to come to this forum to say GOOD LUCK everyone! but holy crap… i hope this pessimistic attitude does not translate into the entire student body, or else i am crossing cornell off of my list. honestly, every awesome school has those “undeserving” students, but what matters is that YOU make the most of your college experience. O____________O</p>