Good luck all RD applicants!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>Those two are very different things, just so you know… Managing Partner at a law firm means that you are a multi-millionaire. There is only one managing partner at each law firm. Over 95% of corporate lawyers who start their careers at big law firms won’t make partner and they all will be forced to resign from working at big law firms after 6-7 years.</p>

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<p>You have very successful family members. However, it is important to note that most lawyers, even from top law schools such as Harvard, won’t get that far, unlike your family members.</p>

<p>It doesn’t matter if you went to Harvard Law or whatever. Truth remains that at large NYC corporate law firms, if you don’t make partner in 7-8 year timeline that these law firms give you, you will get forced out of BigLaw. </p>

<p>And, only way to make a lot of money (200k+) as a corporate lawyer is to work at a large corporate law firm, or work as an in-house counsel at IB or F500 companies. </p>

<p>Most of lawyers, even from Harvard Law, won’t be making 200k+ several years after graduation. Lawyers burn out quickly: there is intense workload at Biglaw, just like I-banking. Also, outside of Biglaw and few areas, virtually no lawyer can make 200k+ a year, even if that guy went to Harvard Law.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if you DO make partner at a large NYC corporate lawyer, you will make 3-4 million dollars a year. So, being a corporate lawyer is no easy job, but if you do make it all the way to the top, no one else (except MD’s from I-banks) will make as much money as you. However, it is important to remember that most lawyers won’t get there, even from Harvard or Yale Law. (Hence, why I think doctor >>>> lawyer)</p>

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<p>I am working now and making close to 60k, so it ain’t bad. Also, I am living in a basement out of my parent’s home so I am not wasting my money on rent. So, that is good, I guess.</p>

<p>Last year, when I was applying to law schools, the legal industry got hit so bad and jobs in legal sector dried up dramatically. For NYC Biglaw, it really didn’t make much sense to attend law school ranked outside top 6, or at least top 10, if you wanted to break into NYC BigLaw firms.</p>

<p>For example, last year, Georgetown Law placed like 30% of their grads into BigLaw jobs. Compared to that, Columbia Law placed over 60% of their grads into BigLaw.</p>

<p>So, the differences in elite-job placement between a top 6 vs. lower T-14 law school is huge. My original plan was to save up some money for a couple of years and take a lesser loan out, and land BigLaw corporate lawyer job, and pay the rest of loans back after that. And, last year, it seemed like going to Columbia Law was worth the debt because it gave me a much surer bet at a BigLaw firm job, compared to lower T-14 or other T-20 law schools.</p>

<p>However, I am trying to evaluate my options. I am hoping economy as well as legal industry will improve dramatically within next couple of years. If legal industry recovers and BigLaw firms pick up their hiring dramatically, that means I will get a decent shot at a Biglaw firm job even out of lower T-14 such as Georgetown. In good economy, Georgetown Law placed nearly 45-50% of their grads into BigLaw. Now, that figure is only 30%. So, right now, attending a school like Berkeley or Georgetown don’t seem like good ideas to me, if I have Columbia Law as my option, despite the debt. (I am willing to incur debt to have the career I want)</p>

<p>What I plan to do is to re-apply to law schools and see how much scholarship money I can get next year. Then, if I get a nice scholarship money from a school that places well into BigLaw (at least 40% of their class into Biglaw), then I would consider going with that school over Columbia Law. If I get a full ride from Michigan Law (which I doubt), then I will go there over Columbia. But, Georgetown or Berkeley (which only place ~30% of their grads into BigLaw) don’t seem like good bets to me even if they offer me huge scholarship money.</p>

<p>What kind of sucks is that law is a prestige-obsessed field, and success as a corporate attorney depends largely on where you attended law school.</p>

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<p>Lazykid, I’m curious, are you going to be at a disadvantage when you start law school, a year later because of work? Or are you still doing law studies concurrently?</p>

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<p>When you interview for lawyer jobs at large law firms, it is advantageous that you had some full time work experience before law school. If there are two candidates with similar academic credentials, yet one guy has two years of experience at a solid company, the guy with experience will most likely to get the nod.</p>

<p>However, getting a top lawyer job at a large corporate law firm (BigLaw) is largely function of 1) where you attend law school, and 2) your grades/ class rank at your law school. Other factors are considered, but those two factors are dominant by far.</p>

<p>Nowadays, it is almost impossible to break into BigLaw if you attend a non-T14 law school, and very difficult to break into BigLaw out of lower T-14 law school such as Georgetown, Berkeley, and Cornell. It gets much easier if you attend a top 6 law school, or if you come from engineering background from college. (law firms cut huge slack if you majored in engineering in college because they’re in need of IP lawyers)</p>

<p>I am not doing law studies concurrently. If I attend law school next year, then I will have taken 2 years of gap year between college and law school attendance. Hopefully, economic outlook by then will have improved and hopefully I will have saved up a decent chunk of money by then.</p>

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<p>It’d be nice if this thread could go back to wishing the best of luck to all the RD applicants.</p>

<p>Cheers to getting your applications out to Cornell! In a mere few months, you may become a proud Cornellian!</p>

<p>-Cornell '14</p>

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<p>Wouldn’t it make more sense to go straight into law school than try to save money before law school? The differential between what you make in Biglaw vs. what you can make with just a BA is too great.</p>

<p>For the sake of argument:</p>

<p>Let’s say, you graduate Cornell at age 22.</p>

<p>If you go straight to law school and graduate in 3 years, at age 25, you’ll be in BigLaw making 160k per year. The average associate only stays in Biglaw for a few years but by age 29, you will have 4 years under your belt at 160k. Your lifetime earnings at that point would be 160 x 4.</p>

<p>If you take a year off, make 60k during that year, you lose a year of Biglaw salary. You won’t graduate law school until age 26. By age 29, you will have 3 years of 160k + your one year of 60k. Your lifetime earnings at age 29, will be 100k less.</p>

<p>I thought about taking a year off to do some research before residency apps. Someone at my school got 9 publications during his year off and ended up at Stanford for radiology. But, the opportunity cost of taking a year off is just too great since I’ll be sacrificing a year of salary as an attending radiologist (which is in the 400k range).</p>

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<p>Submitted yesterday! So exciting :slight_smile: I can’t wait to hear back, I love Cornell!</p>

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<p>Lol, this is an interesting thread. First it was about reassuring RD applicants, then it turned to why Cornell’s admissions suck, and now it’s about law school.</p>

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<p>Do you guys know the average percentage of lawyers who graduate law school that make more than $150,000? Is it somewhat rare for such lawyers to make more?</p>

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<p>Those are very valid points. However, last year and this year, too, seemed like terrible time to attend law school due to horrible economy and dismal legal market.</p>

<p>1) For Biglaw placement, you do all the interviews beginning of your second year of law school. Hence, I will be going through all the law firm interviews exactly one year after I start law school. And, BigLaw employers will employ law students that correspond to the level of health of economy at that specific time.</p>

<p>Since BigLaw was suffering and many of people from even Harvard Law were striking out at BigLaw last year (I hear from my buddy at Harvard Law that over 30% of people there didn’t get BigLaw), I thought that law school at the moment was too risky of a gamble to take.</p>

<p>In 2007, when economy was hot, Columbia Law placed over 80% of grads into BigLaw. In recent years, that figure was close to 60%. So, I decided to take that 60k job for at least a year and see how economy improves, and hopefully enter law school in a better economic period. Also, I was somewhat mentally scared of going into 210k in debt with 8.5 % interest with no help whatsoever from my parents… If I can save up 80-100k before going to law school, I would feel much more comfortable with the debt of law school.</p>

<p>Lastly, the ultimate reason I want to go to law school is so that I can end up specializing in M&A law at a top corporate law firm in NYC, so that I can leverage that experience to go to I-banking as an associate, or go into restructuring group in finance. I do not expect myself to last in Biglaw for many years, at all. I am much more interested in finance, and I hear doing BigLaw stint does give you a very good shot at going into high finance. I am hoping that the job market in finance also improves within next 4-5 years.</p>

<p>Also, wow @ your future salary. Are you to become a radiologist? 400k salary is sick. If I can make that much money, there are some things that I would want to definitely buy ASAP. lol</p>

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<p>Only way you can make that much money as a lawyer straight out of law school is if you end up getting BigLaw or few other highly selective elite boutique shops. Look at:</p>

<p><a href=“http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf[/url]”>http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This chart surveyed employment results from law schools according to their placement into NLJ250 law firm jobs, many of which count as BigLaw. However, that survey was done before the economy crashed in 2008, so the employment stats in recent years are worse than the chart indicates.</p>

<p>Lastly, I recommend you go to law school ONLY IF you can get into a top ten school. Much like MBA, law school won’t improve your career outlooks at all if you don’t attend a top program, except few lucky cases.</p>

<p>It is terribly sad to see some of my classmates from Cornell who ended up at non-T14 law schools, taking out 150k+ debt. Many of those kids won’t get BigLaw and will struggle to pay off law school debt for decades. </p>

<p>Lastly, see if you are good at sciences, first. Medicine >>>>>>>> Law, in terms of career stability, compensation, benefits, and career upshot. Only go to law school if you 1) can get into top ten law school, 2) don’t want to or can’t attend medical school, 3) failed to get top consulting or I-banking jobs out of Cornell.</p>

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<p>^ But can’t you not know if you can get into a top 10 law school until you know or have a really good guess at your final GPA for college and have an LSAT score? And at that point wouldn’t it be too late to apply to medical school because you haven’t taken any premed courses/programs? Unless you start out in pre med initially. But I’m starting in engineering, so if my interests shift, would medical school still be a possibility in the future? I was told law school definitely is because you don’t take any “law classes” as an undergrad.</p>

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<p>This is kind of true though. However, you can take an actual-timed practice LSAT when you have time and see what score range you might be looking at. I know many people who took LSAT as sophomores in college. If you can break 170+ on LSAT, that is a promising sign that you will get into a top ten law school, with the help of sufficient GPA to boot.</p>

<p>For law school admissions, LSAT is king, followed distantly by GPA. Hence, if you can get a rough idea of what your LSAT might end up at, you can judge whether law school is worth it or not.</p>

<p>Also, since law schools don’t require that you majored in a certain field, the best way to go for those who are unsure about medicine vs law path is to major in premed as a college student. That way, you will have options to apply to medical schools and see how that pans out, while obviously giving yourself the option of applying to law schools as well as a fallback option.</p>

<p>Keep in mind, if you attend a non-T10 law school, you risk ending up unemployed with insane amount of debt. I know several kids from my high school who attended Top 30 law school (think Emory Law, Wash U, George Washington Law, UIUC, etc) and recently graduated unemployed with six figure debt. In this economy, I would venture to guess that no law school is worth it to attend outside of top ten, and maybe top 14. </p>

<p>Lastly, don’t discount the possibility of getting a strong job after Cornell. One of nicest thing about attending Cornell is that you get access to top notch recruiting from top banks and consulting firms. If you do well at Cornell, have good internships, and know how to sell yourself in interviews, you might as well forego grad school and go straight into I-banking or management consulting.</p>

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How well is “well” at Cornell? Like a 3.5 or higher?</p>

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<p>Depends on employer, and also depends on your major.</p>

<p>Typically, for top Management Consulting firms, (think McKinsey, BCG, Monitor, Booz, and Mercer) you are expected to have 3.6-3.7 GPA just to land first round interviews at Cornell.</p>

<p>For I-banking, 3.6+ GPA is also ideal for landing interviews.</p>

<p>Lastly, after you land first round interviews, your GPA is out of the window and it is all about how well you can sell yourself to the employers. If you want to get an offer from top management consulting firms, you better prepare for those case interviews. For I-banking interviews, read and study Vault interview prep guide and read New York Times on regular basis. Also, do tons of practice/mock interviews with student organizations as Cornell Consulting Club, etc. I can’t overstate how important your interviewing skills are, when landing those offers from competitive employers. (consulting or banking) </p>

<p>I am now working in a small boutique consulting firm as an analyst, btw. I used to work as a paralegal for few months, but I got this interview from this consulting firm after networking and I aced those case interview questions. I have to say, consulting gig is much more interesting than that paralegal gig I used to work, but it is much more strenuous, for not much better pay. The work I am doing is pretty interesting and I like it, but I will attend law school in few years regardless.</p>

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<p>I’m so excited! I loved Cornell when I visited and almost applied ED! GO BIG RED!</p>

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And what exactly does your job entail as an analyst? Do you think your major prepared you for it?</p>

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<p>Gotcha, lazykid. I guess Biglaw is no longer a guarantee even for T6 graduates. One of my childhood friends recently graduated from UChicago for law school and went into Biglaw in Chicago. She’s constantly stressed since she needs 40 billable hours per week to justify her high salary. Unfortunately, in this kind of economy, it’s not easy to find enough work to do.</p>

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<p>Yea, I’m interviewing for radiology right now. I have 17 radiology interviews (odds of matching with just 8 interviews is 90%). So, it’s pretty much a done deal. The money’s great (for now) but projected medicare reimbursement will slice 25% off over the next few years. Radiology is still one of the most coveted specialties but the gravy train to specialties like radiology, dermatology, etc. is about to end soon.</p>

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<p>This week, I did a lot of powerpoint and excel work as well as doing some data analysis + research. I just started working in this consulting job rather recently, actually. It is much more strenuous than my last job as a paralegal. I used to work as a paralegal at a large law firm for several months following graduation. My last job as a paralegal was a 9 to 6 type of job. This consulting gig I am working at now is more of 9 to 9 type of job + a lot of traveling. Since I haven’t been working here for long at all, I can’t tell you how this gig really is, nor can I tell you how Cornell education prepared me for it.</p>

<p>However, what I will say is that you will learn most of the stuff on the job-training. I guess knowing those bunches of theories from my Econometrics or Microeconomics courses may be helpful, but they’re not the most applicable or practical skillset to what I do on daily basis. </p>

<p>What I will say is that going to top schools such as Cornell will help you break into certain jobs, namely banking or consulting. Whether Cornell education is actually useful for your performance at those jobs or not is a different question entirely. Also, outside of I-banking or consulting, employers don’t seem to care that much about the rank of college you attended. Employers such as Big4 accounting, for example, care about whether or not you majored in accounting or not in college, rather than whether or not you attended Harvard.</p>

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<p>Best of luck. I am sure you will get what you want. I heard that dermatologists make like 800k+ a year, which is insane… 400k a year job is also really sick, and I am sure you will really enjoy your life from that point on! You should buy a nice condo and a new Porsche 911. Gotta treat yourself for all that hard work so far.</p>

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<p>Yeah, legal market is really f-ed up now. Some people say that legal market in this country may never recover fully after the current recession. </p>

<p>In secondary, large markets, such as Chicago, DC, San Francisco, or LA, most of BigLaw firms hire less than one third of what they used to hire before the economy crashed in 2008. For example, for Chicago office, Skadden only hired 13 people last year. In 2007, they hired more than 40 lawyers.</p>

<p>NYC Biglaw has recovered somewhat and is in a better shape than Biglaw from any other city. However, it is still very much of a $hit show. Skadden and Weil NYC offices used to hire close to 100 law students before economic crash, now that figure is barely 40 people per year. Also, NYC Biglaw is getting a lot of work now as deals are picking up, yet NYC Biglaw employers are scared of possibly over-hiring. That means that corporate lawyers in NYC Biglaw, nowadays, are worked to death due to the firm being understaffed, yet getting increasing amounts of work. This economy not only instilled crash of capitals, but also greatly imposed psychological fear among financial institutions as well as law firms. Nowadays, large law firms are just hesitant about making many offers to law students even if their work is picking up and would rather keep their law firm understaffed and work their associate lawyers to death.</p>