Good safety schools for MT?

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>My D is a perfect example of an uninformed student (and her parents) of whom soozievt speaks in past #58. She came to her MT passion late (always in plays, but loved sax and was going to study IT for years). She decided at the end of her junior year (!) to go for college MT, and all she really knew were big name schools. She also thought she HAD to go for a BFA. Needless to say, and without going into much history, a mini disaster ensued. A POOR college match and 2 years later…</p>

<p>We stumbled onto CC, and I can honestly say the thoughts and opinions of the posters here really changed her life. She has found a school/program that she really loves, and we are keeping our fingers crossed that she may squeak in for this fall. If it doesn’t work out, spring will be ok. (More when it is official.) </p>

<p>But the point is, without the current and past posters, she would not have even heard of this school. BTW, I am very impressed with the way current staff of different schools give info on their own schools BUT ALSO on other schools as well.</p>

<p>This is like a giant love letter to CC. I am sorry that IbelieveINU doesn’t believe in CC…</p>

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<p>On the contrary Snoggie, I enjoy CC and I thought it to be very interesting. I do understand the fact that people are loyal to their school or the school they are sending their child too. But, you can not refute the fact that on this board it is undeniable that there is bias to a certain school. I’m not going to list the quotes,but I can list about 10 and I just want it to stop. THAT IS ALL!!! I know several people who were accepted into that school who didn’t have to grades or the talent or both! And for it to be suggested that one shouldn’t audition for it because it is too far far of a reach is appalling!!! If it is you dream go for it!!! That is all I’m going to say on this matter</p>

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<p>I don’t recall ever seeing someone suggest to a student that they shouldn’t apply to a particular school because it was too much of a reach. Maybe you could link the post?</p>

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<p>Speaking for myself only, and since I do this in my JOB, I never tell someone to NOT apply to a school. I give an honest assessment (and I don’t even do THAT on the forums as I don’t have nearly enough to go on and do an extensive evaluation and search and extensive write up on the individual students with whom I work). I help students (not ON the forums) to be realistic and to build balanced lists that will yield results. Reaches are fine to have. My own children applied to reaches. But the reaches were remotely within reach. I have known some kids who have not taken the advice and who had NO school to go to. Having dreams is good but also having a realistic college list is important! The choice of where to apply is then left to the student and not me. I can only given an honest assessment and not decide for them. I have also had students who were reaching beyond their means and had they not added the schools I felt were more in their range, they would have landed nowhere. They did not get into the schools they dreamt of but in fact, landed at the schools I encouraged them to add to the list and are happily going to these schools and would have been left high and dry otherwise. Dreaming is good. Being realistic about what is involved, is also important. </p>

<p>For instance, if a kid has stats that put them in the low range for Harvard, I’d say Harvard was a reach. But if there stats are not remotely anywhere near where anyone has ever been accepted to Harvard (and such information exists), I’d say it was a far reach. They can apply if they choose to but I’d not be doing my job to say that the school was within their grasp. A list of more appropriate schools would be important. Read the other CC forums and you will find kids who apply to every Ivy League school with no matches, no safeties and do not have a profile to get into the Ivies and they have nowhere to go. And then also look at the kids who have perfect SATs and are valedictorian with very significant awards and so forth, and a perfect GPA and even they get rejected at the Ivies. Top schools are reaches for ANYONE given their LOW admit rates. They become FAR Reaches if someone isn’t remotely in the ballpark. They can apply but it would be a disservice to not give such students a realistic outlook. I have seen the outcomes of those who did not take such advice. It is not pretty. But I am NOT suggesting that one should not audition. I surely have not suggested that HERE on CC to anyone because I could not as I don’t nearly know enough about any individual here on CC. But even for the kids I get to know very very closely, I would never say , “don’t audition”…the choice is theirs. I provide a realistic assessment of their odds and help them to build a realistic and balanced list but the final decision of where to apply rests solely with the student.</p>

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<p>Soozie and others, I would value your opinion on the following..</p>

<p>D and I have been spending a lot of time the last couple weeks researching online at school websites, and going through a lot of Coffees(me) and Carmel Frappuccinos(D) at Barnes&Nobles(with in-store starbucks) reading through stacks of the various college guides, especially some of the more subjective ones written with a lot of student input, rather than just the dry US News&World Report and CollegeBoard telephonebook sized guides…</p>

<p>Anyhow, to try and give a brief review of my D’s current level of academics/talent/Experience…</p>

<p>Academics:

  • 3.9/4.3(unweighted/weighted and has taken the most challenging courses offered, and has 4 more AP courses for the fall) SAT’s ~ 1310/2010(will take one more time in the fall too), National Honor society/audition choir group/student govt/volunteer work..</p>

<p>Experience: H.S. Spring Musicals for 4 years (leads last 2 years), H.S. straight plays(only for juniors and Seniors, 2 per year - leads), 4 years of H.S theater classes, Stagedoor Manor, Pittsburgh CLO Academy -preprofessional classes acting/voice/Dance/various master classes ~3+years, CMU Precollege</p>

<p>Talent: (trying to be as objective here as I can.. lol) - Legit soprano (can hit Cosette’s high notes clearly and strong, pardon my musical illiteracy regarding the actual notes, not a music person myself) Her voice teacher is on the CMU faculty and has been very impressed with her lately, and actually was the one who encouraged her to apply to BOCO, as he sent several of his students there over the last couple years for MT BFA, so I’m deferring to his ability to assess talent. She got pretty good evaluations from her CMU precollege teachers, particularly in voice and styles/acting… Dance, she’s still at an intermediate level, though her 10 years of figure skating experience has helped her greatly with being able to pick up new routines and combinations very quickly. I would say her strengths are in the following order - Voice, Acting, Dance… so that’s my brief attempt to give an overview of my D’s current levels for looking at the following schools…(and this list has been pared down from the big list earlier, but some decisions still have to be made.. I’d like to get it down to around 5 reach, 5 match, and 2 safety..) Would appreciate peoples comments suggestions, or any corrections that might need made in regard to the following schools..</p>

<p>Reach Schools Degree
Boston Conservatory B.F.A. Music Theatre
Carnegie Mellon University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Ithaca College B.F.A. Music Theatre
Northwestern University B.A Theatre MT Certificate
University of Michigan B.F.A. Music Theatre
Syracuse University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Florida State University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Brown University B.A. Theatre Arts</p>

<p>Match Schools<br>
Baldwin-Wallace College B.M. Music Theatre
Elon University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Otterbein College B.F.A. Music Theatre
Pace University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Penn State University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Point Park University B.F.A. Music Theatre
Shenandoah Conservatory B.F.A. Music Theatre
James Madison University B.A. Theatre
Marymount Manhattan College B.F.A. Music Theatre
Wagner College B.A. Theatre</p>

<p>Safety Schools<br>
Muhlenberg College B.A. Theatre
Rollins College B.A. Theatre
Sarah Lawrence College B.A. Theatre
Goucher College B.A. Theatre</p>

<p>I’ve already got a master spreadsheet(thanks Michael) made up with all these schools on it, with dates/requirements/etc… and will delete schools as further refinement is made over the next week or so… D is ready to start working on applications and essays here very soon… hope to get everything knocked out before october 1st…</p>

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<p>I’m not giving an opinion, as I am new to all of this and only have a rising junior, but…in terms of the match schools, from my understanding, most of the ones you listed still have very low acceptance rates, don’t they? I remember from my older D’s experience (non MT) that the guidance counselors at her school called ANY school with a less that a 25% acceptance rate a “reach” no matter what the stats of the student. And I would think that acceptance mostly by audition would be even harder to predict, although maybe some of your “matches” take accademics more into account than I realized. Any input would be appreciated, I’m just trying to learn. Thanks as always!</p>

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<p>KatiesDad, I would suggest forgetting about the “Reach, Match, Safety” labels for a moment and reorganize your list a bit before paring it down. Penn State should pop up into the first grouping because it is a small program that draws nationally and requires strong academics to get admitted to its Main Campus in State College. I would take Brown and Northwestern out of the first group and stick them with the third group since they are non-audition schools (including Northwestern for freshman admission). Once having done that, I would start winnowing down each group by focusing on the admissions characteristics of each school.</p>

<p>In the first group, BOCO and CMU are similar in that they are very selective, draw from a very large national pool of applicants and do not weigh academics heavily. CMU, however, is a significantly smaller program. University of Michigan kind of stands by itself because you can’t even get to an audition until your application is prescreened based on academics and other factors and then you are invited to audition. Ithaca and Syracuse I think are comparable in terms of the required academic criteria and weight given to academics in the admissions process, pull from a similar pool of students for auditions but Ithaca is a much smaller program.</p>

<p>In the second group, I am not too familiar personally with the schools listed except for Wagner. You should be aware that Wagner offers only one audition date and if you can’t make that date, you must submit a video tape. In addition, given the way you have comprised your groups, and the schools you have listed, it’s not clear to me what Wagner brings to the mix that is different or “adds value” compared to the other schools you have listed. As an audition based BA program, it’s kind of caught in between your other schools and if it’s there because of the academic balance to the program, there are other schools on your list that are better suited to your daughter’s level of achievement, and if it’s there because it is an audition based program, there are many audition based schools on your list that offer a programatic balance that is more focused on performance.</p>

<p>In the third group on your list, you now have all the non-audition BA programs (again noting that Northwestern requires an audition after the freshman or sophomore year to get into the MT certificate program). Northwestern is a reach academically. Sarah Lawrence is a very different kind of school with a totally different model and structure for a liberal arts education. Make sure you really understand it. While an excellent school, its programatic structure is not for everyone. Muhlenberg is a good match. Your daughter’s academics make her a strong candidate and the theatre program is excellent and offers a lot of MT opportunities. An interview on campus and the optional audition (which is very low key and a great tune up for the BFA auditions) would materially enhance her prospects there.</p>

<p>Regrouped this way, hopefully you will find a way to pare it down to 3 - 4 schools from each of the first 2 groups and 2 from the non-audition BA group. Glad the spread sheets helped!</p>

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<p>Thanks, Michael and HSN. I guess when segregating into the catagories, our thinking for “Reach” was either more/most selective academically (i.e. Brown/NW) or those audition programs with the historically most selective programs. I admit there may be some overlap in that regard for some of the “match” audition programs. Still need to do some refining there it seems.</p>

<p>As far as Wagner, it didn’t fit in the “safety” category due to the audition requirement, and it may yet get filtered out, but she did have some interest in it for not just the program itself, but the location and campus itself, and some personal anecdotes from an aquaintance.</p>

<p>Sarah Lawrence… yes, hmmmm… have been reading about their program, and philosphy… I wasn’t even sure from their website, if B.A. Theatre was the correct degree one obtains… certainly a VERY different college experience.</p>

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<p>KatiesDad - I found your research very impressive. I have two questions, if you don’t mind.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You wrote that you ‘spent a lot of time .. reading through stacks of the various college guides, especially some of the more subjective ones written with a lot of student input’ We have yet to do that. Did you find it useful and a good use of the time??</p></li>
<li><p>What were the criteria your daughter used to narrow down her list. I realized that this is a personalized list and varies greatly from student to student, however I find it useful to hear what others thought of as when I mention them to my daughter she often replies, ‘oh, yeah that would be very important to me also, I hadn’t thought of that.’ </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thanks so much.</p>

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<p>KatiesDad, if you are interested in Sarah Lawrence, feel free to PM me. Although I went there a thousand years ago I am an active alumnae and know people with kids there and the academic structure hasn’t changed much since I was a student. It IS a different way of doing college, but no less academic or challenging than more traditional schools, provided that it’s the right fit for the student. It will definitely be on my D’s list as if nothing else it’s a great back up for a good student who wants theatre training. Also, our daughters were just together at CMU, so we have that in common, too!</p>

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<p>Here’s a brief list of some of the books we looked though at B&N…</p>

<p>U.S. News Ultimate College Guide 2009
[Amazon.com:</a> U.S. News Ultimate College Guide 2009 (Us News Ultimate College Guide): Staff of U.S.News & World Report: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/U-S-News-Ultimate-College-Guide/dp/1402210817/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219602957&sr=8-12]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/U-S-News-Ultimate-College-Guide/dp/1402210817/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219602957&sr=8-12)</p>

<p>Four-Year Colleges 2009 (Peterson’s Four Year Colleges)
[Amazon.com:</a> Four-Year Colleges 2009 (Peterson’s Four Year Colleges): Peterson’s, Fern Oram: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Four-Year-Colleges-2009-Petersons-Four/dp/0768925444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603233&sr=8-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Four-Year-Colleges-2009-Petersons-Four/dp/0768925444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603233&sr=8-1)</p>

<p>College Handbook 2009 (College Handbook)
[Amazon.com:</a> College Handbook 2009 (College Handbook): The College Board: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/College-Handbook-2009/dp/0874478235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603301&sr=1-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/College-Handbook-2009/dp/0874478235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603301&sr=1-1)</p>

<p>283 Great Colleges (SparkCollege)
[Amazon.com:</a> 283 Great Colleges (SparkCollege) (SparkCollege): SparkNotes Editors: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/283-Great-Colleges-SparkCollege/dp/1411409388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603379&sr=1-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/283-Great-Colleges-SparkCollege/dp/1411409388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603379&sr=1-1)</p>

<p>The Big Book of Colleges 2008
[Amazon.com:</a> The Big Book of Colleges 2008: Mark Benvenuto, Heather Estes, Omid Gohari, Kelly Carey, Matt Hamman: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Colleges-2008/dp/1427400016/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603691&sr=1-13]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Colleges-2008/dp/1427400016/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603691&sr=1-13)</p>

<p>The Insider’s Guide to the Colleges, 2009: Students on Campus Tell You What You Really Want to Know, 35th Edition
[Amazon.com:</a> The Insider’s Guide to the Colleges, 2009: Students on Campus Tell You What You Really Want to Know, 35th Edition (Insider’s Guide to the Colleges): Yale Daily News Staff: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Guide-Colleges-2009-Students/dp/0312366914/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603549&sr=1-3]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Guide-Colleges-2009-Students/dp/0312366914/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603549&sr=1-3)</p>

<p>Creative Colleges: A Guide for Student Actors, Artists, Dancers, Musicians and Writers
[Amazon.com:</a> Creative Colleges: A Guide for Student Actors, Artists, Dancers, Musicians and Writers (Creative Colleges: A Guide for Student Actors, Artists, Dancers,): Elaina Loveland: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Colleges-Student-Artists-Musicians/dp/1932662235/ref=pd_sim_b_53]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Colleges-Student-Artists-Musicians/dp/1932662235/ref=pd_sim_b_53)</p>

<p>College Guide for Performing Arts Majors 2009: Real-World Admission Guide for All Dance, Music, and Theater Majors
[Amazon.com:</a> College Guide for Performing Arts Majors 2009: Real-World Admission Guide for All Dance, Music, and Theater Majors (Performing Arts Major’s College Guide): Peterson’s, Fern Oram: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/College-Guide-Performing-Arts-Majors/dp/0768925630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603882&sr=1-1]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/College-Guide-Performing-Arts-Majors/dp/0768925630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219603882&sr=1-1)</p>

<p>Also reviewed various Fodor’s,etc.. travel guides for the states/cities for schools she wasn’t too familiar with to get an idea of what the locations, nightlife, attractions, etc .. are all like..</p>

<p>Also, something else interesting, while viewing various schools websites.. had another window open to google maps with driving directions from our house to the various campuses… then using google’s satellite image feature, zoomed in on the campuses to get a nice view of the layout of the various campuses, also used google map’s “Street view” feature to actually “drive around” the campus areas and view what they and the surrounding areas looked like… amazing, and very useful feature.</p>

<p>For instance, didn’t know that route 81 runs right through both Shenandoah, and JMU campuses…</p>

<p>Regarding the books with various student input… as they are for the most part anecdotal (some surveys as well, etc.) one has to take them with a grain of salt, but they do help to provide some input… for instance, D was very interested in the Rollins Campus after looking at the campus/location on google maps and street view, but some of the student guides have Rollins come across as a country club atmosphere with student body as materialistic, preppie/fashionista, partiers with alcohol and drug issues…lol so who knows..</p>

<p>I think in narrowing down her list, she’s going by what she’s learned, opinions shes formed through not only the research we’ve done, but also conversations this past summer at CMU Precollege with various students from around the country about the various other schools they’ve visited, and also input from the various professors.</p>

<p>So, I guess apart from using her academic criterion, and going by her voice teacher’s artistic guidance, along with all the other input, she’s narrowed the list down to what it is… which of course still needs to be cut down further some…</p>

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<p>Don’t let the I81 thing dissuade you from considering JMU. Once you’re on campus, you forget the interstate is there. Almost everything is on one side - including the music building and the new performing arts center - slated to open by 2010 and it will be incredible. We just moved my D into one of the newer dorms on the other side of I81 and I was worried at first but the dorm is beautiful, has AC and the views of the mountains from the lounge make it look like a resort. She has a long walk to the music building but is happy to get the exercise. I’m sure she’ll be using the shuttle on cold days. She loves the food and the coffee on that side of campus. JMU is definitely a campus that you have to visit and not just ride by to make an opinion.</p>

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<p>You’ve done a great job, Katie’s Dad! From reading through this site for over a year, and from assisting my son with applications last year, I must say that to consider Otterbein and Penn State “match” schools is not helpful. Academically your daughter is competitive, but the MT programs at these schools are small, and very difficult to get into. I’m not sure what it means to be a “match” school when there is an audition. . .but you’re probably safer in your assessment of Point Park and Shenadoah as “matches” in the sense that students SEEM to be more successful getting in to those programs (but, who knows!).</p>

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<p>My two cents: Your d is a match academically for Penn State and Elon; however the MT components for both would be reach schools. It is extremely difficult to get into either of these MT programs on the audition/artistic side. They are small and highly selective.</p>

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<p>One more think I forgot to include. Northwestern should remain on your list as a reach school (and Brown too). There are no guarantees with universities of this academic caliber no matter how smart or talented your (or anyone’s) d is. There are zillions of other very smart, talented students out there and the Class of 2009 is supposed to be the largest ever to be entering college next fall.</p>

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<p>I think the Reach/Match line tends to blur when taking into account audition BFA programs. I guess if one wanted to take it to extremes, for MT there should only be two categories… Reach and Safety… “reach” containing all audition programs. When it really comes down to it, it’s all really just semantics. Whether my D has 5 reach, 5 Match, and 2 safety, or 10 reach and 2 safety, when talking about MT audition programs, she’s really only planning on 2 schools that she knows pretty well that she’ll get in.</p>

<p>I think the “reach” label we used, was just to signify more, the selectivity level, knowing so called “match” schools are still by no means shoo-ins.
For instance, would people place Penn State or Elon in the selectivity class of CMU, Michigan, or Boco? And Certainly Brown and NW are reach schools by virtue of their academic selectivity.</p>

<p>Bottom line, regardless of whether we label them as reach, or match, we want to have around 8-10 audition programs of varying selectivity for her to try, in addition to a couple safety schools that she’d be happy with as well.</p>

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<p>Well, I want to thank everyone for all the input on this thread… D has made her final list over the weekend, after a final conference with her voice teacher at her lesson on Saturday..</p>

<p>Reach/Match Schools
Boston Conservatory
Carnegie Mellon University
Ithaca College
Northwestern University
University of Michigan
Syracuse University
Brown University
Baldwin-Wallace College
Otterbein College
Penn State University
Point Park University
Shenandoah Conservatory</p>

<p>Safety Schools
Muhlenberg College
Rollins College</p>

<p>Have pretty much all the online apps filled out except for the essays she’s working on.. fun stuff.</p>

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<p>I have to say I had my misgivings about Muhlenberg before my son attended this year…and BOY was I wrong. There is NOTHING and I repeat NOOTHING safe about this school choice. Not only is it an incredible academic institution but the talent that walks the halls of the Performing Arts Center would rival any conservatory. Any doubts…come see a production on the hill…whether it is a student directed or main stage production…they are of professional quality. My son, top 10 of his high school graduating class, that exceeded over 700 students, stated that he has never been so challenged, both in the academic and artistic arena. My son is in awe of his fellow thespians and professors. He said that this choice of instituition will not only make him the BEST at his craft but will mold him into a fine person…with character and integrity. What more can we ask?</p>

79

<p>KatiesDad, you and your daughter have done a lot of work and you’ve gotten the app process underway early. You should have a successful audition season. Can’t wait to see what happens!</p>

<p>Lady Mac, it’s great to hear how the kids are doing at the various programs. I think such observations would be quite helpful and encouraging for those who are applying. Especially since so few get into their DREAM schools and will have to adjust to programs they originally thought were “second best.” Apparently, many find the schools they actually get into are perfect!</p>

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<p>Let me chime in here and say that my D and I saw a production of a Tennessee Williams play staged at Muhlenberg a few years ago that rivaled the quality of anything we saw produced at college/university/conservatory BFA programs. In addition, that school seems to have a culture of (for want of a better way to say it) “niceness” that comes through when you visit. You can be walking along the sidewalk and strangers will smile at you and say “Hi!” and kids won’t let the doors slam in your face: they will hold the doors open. Muhlenberg has a lot to recommend it, that’s for sure. And it’s also become so popular (for obvious reasons) that it might not really be considered a true safety school.</p>