<p>How important is it to graduate admissions that you might have taken a few grad courses? In my case I am talking about taking physics grad courses (since UCSD allows its physics majors to take a few grad classes for their physics electives).</p>
<p>They tend to be looked upon favorably. It shows you are taking more rigorous courses (if that is indeed the case), and, hopefully, capable of doing well. Also very helpful is pursuing independent study on an area that interests you.</p>
<p>Definitely follow this on-going thread: <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=327228%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=327228</a></p>
<p>mathtastic,</p>
<p>As long as you don't think you will flunk the class, taking a grad course is usually a good idea not only because it looks good on a grad application, but also because it will challenge you. It will also get you a taste of what grad school classes are like before you get there, which affords you a nice little head start.</p>
<p>in a related matter,</p>
<p>how are grad courses different from undergrad courses?</p>
<p>grad courses compose mostly of grad students, and undergrad courses compose mostly of undergrad students... just kidding</p>
<p>a lot of grad courses are literature based, which means that you have to read, discussion, and present papers. they are generally a lot more in depth in term of theories as oppose to the survey style in undergrad courses. and B's and C's are automatically assigned to undergrad to make sure that all grad students receive good grades while keep a nice bell curve. thats my experience with at least a semester worth of grad classes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and B's and C's are automatically assigned to undergrad to make sure that all grad students receive good grades while keep a nice bell curve.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But don't most grad level courses have very few undergrads in them?</p>
<p>actually the grad classes i attended had a fair amount of undergrad's in there. (our department actually encourages top students to take grad level classes.) maybe i shouldn't say automatically, but it's usually very hard for an undergrad to receive A in a grad level classes here. most of them r taking it as P/NP so it doesn't hurt their GPA. but again, when you are taking a grad level classes, you are not looking to improve your GPA, but to learn advanced concepts and critical thinking skills.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and B's and C's are automatically assigned to undergrad to make sure that all grad students receive good grades while keep a nice bell curve.
[/quote]
Definitely not my experience. I suppose individual experience differs. </p>
<p>One other benefits is by taking some the graduate-level courses during senior years (as electives), one can spend just one/two more semesters to get an MS. This is probably only in true for CS/engineering.</p>
<p>I haven't taken any grad classes yet. But, I do know that graduate students typically take way less classes than undergrads (3-4 classes rather than 4-6 per semester), so it may be hard to compete with them just because of the workload you have to maintain. </p>
<p>Of course, if you plan things right, you might be able to take a course schedule that won't overwhelm you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
actually the grad classes i attended had a fair amount of undergrad's in there. (our department actually encourages top students to take grad level classes.) maybe i shouldn't say automatically, but it's usually very hard for an undergrad to receive A in a grad level classes here. most of them r taking it as P/NP so it doesn't hurt their GPA. but again, when you are taking a grad level classes, you are not looking to improve your GPA, but to learn advanced concepts and critical thinking skills.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're at Berkeley, right? I suppose that this may differ based on institution. Very few undergrads at Washington take grad level courses (exception is math majors).</p>
<p>
[quote]
You're at Berkeley, right? I suppose that this may differ based on institution. Very few undergrads at Washington take grad level courses (exception is math majors).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>that may very well be true.</p>
<p>Ok, i understand, thanks for the help</p>
<p>I was an undergraduate math major at NYU, and there were actually quite a few of us taking graduate courses (mostly because it seemed as though the undergraduate curriculum was insufficient for most of us). I took five grad courses while I was an undergraduate: Complex Analysis, Differential Geometry I, Topology I, Topology II and Linear Algebra. My experiences in them varied vastly:</p>
<p>There were two versions of graduate Complex Analysis. One was the slower version, spread out over two semesters, and mostly intended for masters students or PhD students without funding. It was crosslisted as "Honors I and II" for undergraduates, and so there were actually quite a few undergrads in it (nearly a third of the class). The other version was an intensive one-semester version that was generally only open to PhD students with funding, although somehow I slipped through the cracks and was allowed to take it. I had already taken an undergraduate course in the subject, so I was relatively prepared for the course; however, the professor moved extremely quickly, and it was one of the most rigorous courses I've ever taken. I was set up to get an A- because I was doing okay in the course (keeping up but not as well as some of the older students), but I did pretty well on the final exam and was given an A in the end.</p>
<p>Differential Geometry was mostly PhD students, although there were two undergraduates in the course. At the time I thought it was a fairly difficult course, although now that I'm a graduate student, I can see that it wasn't too terribly bad comparatively. I did fairly well in the first half, having already seen the material, but I struggled a bit with the second half of the course. I kept up okay, but I hadn't mastered the material. In the end, I ended up with an A-.</p>
<p>Topology I and II were very easy courses. They were crosslisted as undergraduate courses, and somehow we ended up with a mix of undergraduate math majors, math masters students, math PhD students, and even some finance and economics graduate students (who suppoesdly needed math electives). The professor was great at making the material easy to understand for everybody, but the slow pace of the course made some of the students bored, and thus we didn't learn the material as rigorously as I would have hoped. However, the final exams were easy both semesters, and most of my friends got A's because of the leniency of the professor.</p>
<p>Linear Algebra was a bit of a fiasco. Again, there was an intensive version and a slower version, but I took the first semester of the slower version because it was the only one that fit into my schedule. I took the course with my undergraduate friend, and we were both bored out of our minds at the slowness of the pace. Additionally, most of the other students were bad students (in that they never studied, and many of them didn't hand in the (relatively easy) homework assignments in on time). I don't think there were any PhD students in there. Anyways, my friend and I both received A's without much effort.</p>
<p>Looking back on my post, it may seem that there were normally very few undergraduates taking graduate courses, but you have to consider the composition of courses at Courant. It's a big place with many PhD and masters students, and there are also economics and finance students in the mix; however, there were relatively few undergraduate math majors (about 25 per year, if I recall correctly), and so the stronger of those students took at least one graduate course, and the strongest of the students took at least three or four.</p>
<p>As far as the difficult and grading of graduate courses, it varies from place to place. That said, it is my experience that most grades given out are A's, there are a few B's, and there are rarely any grades below that. There's "grade inflation" in most graduate programs, but it's not really the same as for undergraduates. In most graduate programs, an A is considered good, an A- is considered okay, a B+ is considered passing, a B is really on the fence between passing and failing, and a B- or below is generally failing. You can call it grade inflation if you want, but it's really just working on a different scale than in the undergraduate realm. I've heard that historical reasons this is true include the fact that schools don't want students with outside funding with arbitrarily set GPA requirements to lose their funding because their school grades more harshly than others, and also that the students in graduate programs are assumed to be smart enough and hard working enough to succeed in the programs, and that if they're doing C work, they're not doing well enough. It's a discussion/argument that could go on for a while if someone really wanted it to, so I'll just leave things at that.</p>
<p>So overall, it seems to be quite common for an undergraduate to take graduate courses, although it certainly varies by school and by department. Also, grading seems to vary by school and department also, but I've never in my life seen a professor give a student a grade less than a B in a graduate course. I'm sure it happens, as eastcoastbound has said it happens in their department, but I would expect that it's rare for most departments at most schools.</p>
<p>Basically, if you can take a graduate course or two without falling behind, I'd certainly recommend it. I got into SUNY Stony Brook for their math PhD program, and I was told by their director of admissions that they generally don't admit students without graduate coursework (because apparently they have so many applicants with the experience that they can discriminate against those who don't). I'm sure this isn't the case at most places, but it's something to think about.</p>
<p>emengee,</p>
<p>Thanks for the informative post.</p>
<p>When you say that the strongest students at Courant took "three or four" graduate courses, does this mean year-long sequences, or semesters? (Or quarters, if you're on that system)</p>
<p>This is something I was wondering about. I'm an undergrad at the University of Minnesota, where nearly all of the graduate courses are two-part sequences: Algebra I/II, Complex Analysis I/II, and the like. Since I'll have done quite a few of them, I imagine I'll mention that somewhere on my SOP when I apply to grad school. If I've done, say, 8 of these sequences, is it fair to say "16 graduate courses" when they were only in eight subjects?</p>
<p>When I said "three or four", I meant semester-long courses, not year-long sequences. Since you've taken so many courses, is it possible for your school to give you a BA and an MA? Many schools do that, and it seems like you should have satisfied the requirements if such a program is in place.</p>
<p>Either way, you don't want to list the number of graduate courses you've taken on your statement of purpose. That should be on your transcript, and the schools you're applying to should be able to figure out that they're graduate courses. Instead, you'll want to talk about how you've enjoyed the graduate coursework you've had thus far and how you've benefited from it as a mathematician.</p>
<p>And if you're reading this and worrying that they won't realize that they're graduate courses, you can do what I did. I sumbitted a CV with all of my applications, and under the education section I listed my relevant coursework, distinguishing between material I took graduate courses in and material I only had undergraduate courses in. Although I've never spoken to someone on an admissions committee about how they view CVs, I can only imagine that an impressive CV would be a nice, concise way of showing them how strong of an applicant you are. I mean, it's not going to make you look better than you are, but you avoid the case where you don't represent yourself well and you end up looking weaker than you are.</p>
<p>I've been thinking about doing the same thing. I could fit up to 4 graduate level courses in my schedule before I graduate. It just depends on scheduling conflicts for me.</p>
<p>Wow, very very very nice post emengee. I honestly think that it should be cataloged with a list of other very nice posts here. hm, oh well, I'll make a private list of really good posts here and maybe post it up if I get enough good posts.</p>
<p>It would be really nice if someone made a website with information about applying to math grad schools. There's so much information on this board and on other websites, and it would be incredibly useful if someone put it all together.</p>
<p>That job technically belongs to Google now. :)</p>