Grad School after Cal

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
1

<p>I was admitted to Cal for Mechanical Engineering this Fall and I have a couple questions about attending grad school after.</p>

<p>From the ME Grad Admission FAQ at Cal site:

[quote]
"What are the minimum requirements to be considered for admission to a graduate program in Mechanical Engineering?
(1) a bachelor's degree or recognized equivalent from an accredited institution; (2) enough undergraduate training to do graduate work in your chosen field;
<a href="3">b</a> a satisfactory scholastic average, with a minimum grade-point average (GPA) of 3.0 (B)** and
(4) the General Test of the Graduate Record Examinations."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What is the average GPA of an MechE undergrad student at Cal?
Is there some leaway to this minimum GPA?
Would I be better off going somewhere else for undergrad in order to attend graduate school at Cal?</p>

<p>I'm rather intimidated by Cal thanks to some horror stories I've heard, lol.</p>

2

<p>First off, do you necessarily have to go to Cal for ME graduate school? There are plenty of other strong ME grad programs out there.</p>

<p>Secondly, the truth is, many of the other elite ME grad programs, i.e. MIT, aren't exactly a walk in the park either. </p>

<p>Thirdly, I think it should be pointed out that even if you go to an easier school for undergrad and get high grades, you STILL might not be able to get into Cal for graduate school. Engineering grad school admissions, especially (obviously) doctoral admissions, rest largely on research potential. You might find that you have top grades, and still not get into any of the top graduate programs.</p>

<p>Fourthly, I would ask, are you sure you will even need a graduate degree at all? Plenty of engineers enjoy perfectly fine careers without one.</p>

3

<p>finite element!! learn finite element!!!
there could be a way around the minimum gpa, but even with some pretty nice research background, a sub 3.0 gpa probably won't get you anywhere in grad school.
i dunno about ME in general but CoE average is said to be 2.9 ish. it seems like they don't release average gpa data by college.</p>

4

<p>Unless you have letters of rec from top-cited professors in your field or 1st author on a paper in respected journals, you really can't expect to get into the top 3(MIT, Berkeley, Stanford) with less than a 3.5 gpa. Anything under 3.0, even from Berkeley, will keep you out of the top 25 grad programs. GPA does matter a lot, even though it is not the only thing. I believe the average incoming for grad students is a 3.7-3.8 (3.9 for Stanford EEs). Still it is not so hard to get a 3.5, if you put in the time, so I wouldn't worry about it. Even though it's a top program, as a state school, there are plenty of people who will lower ther mean enough for a good student to stay a good amount above the mean. 3.5 and above from Cal will put you in the running for all the top programs, provided your research and recs are very good.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Unless you have letters of rec from top-cited professors in your field or 1st author on a paper in respected journals, you really can't expect to get into the top 3(MIT, Berkeley, Stanford) with less than a 3.5 gpa. Anything under 3.0, even from Berkeley, will keep you out of the top 25 grad programs. GPA does matter a lot, even though it is not the only thing. I believe the average incoming for grad students is a 3.7-3.8 (3.9 for Stanford EEs). Still it is not so hard to get a 3.5, if you put in the time, so I wouldn't worry about it. Even though it's a top program, as a state school, there are plenty of people who will lower ther mean enough for a good student to stay a good amount above the mean. 3.5 and above from Cal will put you in the running for all the top programs, provided your research and recs are very good.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nah, I'm afraid that you greatly overestimate just how difficult it is to get into top graduate eng schools. Either that, or perhaps you have too high of an opinion of the grad students you do see.</p>

<p>Let me put it to you this way. According to the USNews Graduate Ranking 2008, Premium Edition, the average GPA of entering master's degree engineering students at Berkeley had a 3.6 GPA, and entering doctoral engineering students had a 3.7. You see this data by going to the graduate engineering rankings, then clicking on the individual school, then going to the 'Admissions' section. Of, if you have the paper copy of the ranking, you just look up Berkeley engineering in the back section. </p>

<p>Unfortuately, for this year's rankings, Stanford and MIT don't disclose any GPA information, but I seem to remember from previous year's that their average incoming GPA was around a 3.6 or so. For comparative purposes, the #4 ranked school, Georgia Tech is around a 3.6, the #'s 6, 7 and 9 schools (Carnegie Mellon, USC, and Michigan) are 3.5-3.6. The other schools in the top 10 who I did not include are those that didn't disclose their GPA information. Note that these are * average * GPA's. That must mean that there are plenty of people who are admitted have GPA's that are below that average.</p>

<p>Frankly speaking, it's not * that * hard to get just a master's degree from even MIT or Stanford. And, no, you don't need to be "1st author on a paper in respected journals" or have letters of rec from top-cited professors to get into these programs. None of the master's degree students that I know at those schools have any of that stuff. In fact, it is almost certainly easier to get into the master's degree programs at these schools than it is to get into the undergraduate program at those schools. Keep in mind that the master's programs are cash cows for MIT and Stanford - most master's degree students pay full freight and they are therefore used as a way to finance the department. </p>

<p>So while I agree with you that having lower than a 3.0 isn't going to be good if you want to get into a top graduate engineering program, I would hardly go so far as to say that you really need a 3.7-3.9, especially if all you want is just a master's degree.</p>

6

<p>Does anyone know how many students come into Cal wanting to get a degree in engineering versus how many students actually graduate with a degree in engineering?</p>

7

<p>You're misreading what I said. I said that if you have a 3.5 and above and your recs and research are very good, then you have a good shot at these schools. If it's below, then you will need outstanding recs or outstanding research/publications to compensate. Or if these two are weak, then a 3.8 or 3.9 from a good program can help. It's one of three or a balance, not all of them.</p>

<p>3.7 GPA seems reasonable for the top programs, if they're factoring in MS programs, though it seems rounded down. The people who got in with lower averages did have to do something to compensate, and that's what the recs and research part is about. If your gpa is well below (3.4 or lower) then yes, I would say you do need some major pub or major recs. Berkeley admissions members themselves say that they consider a 3.6 a pretty low gpa for their doctoral programs, and that the student should show other abilities to compensate.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
3.7 GPA seems reasonable for the top programs, if they're factoring in MS programs, though it seems rounded down.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I really don't think so. I still think you are greatly discounting just how easy (relatively speaking) it is to get into many master's degree programs, even at the top schools, particularly if you don't care which sort of master's degree you get (as long as it is an engineering degree of * some kind *. To give you a case in point, the average GPA of entering students into the Stanford management science & engineering was a 3.60/4. And they admit over half their applicants. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/admissions/admitstats.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/admissions/admitstats.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Or consider the MIT LFM program (the dual degree MBA + SM in engineering program). The average GPA of the entering class is a 3.56/4. Because I have great familiarity with LFM, I can tell you that few of them have ever published anything, nor do they have superstar academic rec's (although they clearly have strong professional rec's). Yet they were still admitted and they're going to get a master's degree in engineering from MIT (along with their Sloan MBA). </p>

<p><a href="http://lfm.mit.edu/students.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://lfm.mit.edu/students.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>What I will say is this. If all you want is an engineering master's degree (as opposed to a doctorate), and if you don't really care what kind of master's degree it is, it really isn't that hard to get into one of the top schools like MIT or Stanford. I'm not saying it's easy, but I don't think it's as hard as you seem to think it is,.</p>

9

<p>Well, ok, if you're going to include those degrees, then sure it's easy. But who would want just any engineering degree? The OP is an ME major, which is the field I was addressing. I'm guessing US News doesn't give branch specific averages, but if these business oriented programs are 3.6 and the average is a 3.7, then I'm pretty sure the ones picking up the slack on the other end are ME and EE.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Well, ok, if you're going to include those degrees, then sure it's easy. But who would want just any engineering degree?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, first off, in the case of the LFM program, we're not just talking about "any" engineering degree. You get a specific master's degree in whatever engineering discipline you are qualified to get . Historically, by far the most common eng degree to get as an LFM student was an ME degree - often times comprising nearly half of the entire LFM class. Those particular LFM students who are "dualling" within the ME or EECS department don't seem particularly more qualified than the rest of the LFM students, i.e. those getting master's in, say, civil engineering or engineering systems or whatnot. </p>

<p>But more to the point, you ask who would want just 'any' engineering degree? And my response to that is simple - why not? First off the guys who are getting MS degrees in Management Science and Engineering at Stanford actually make * more * than the guys getting MS degrees in ME. The guys getting masters' degrees in engineering systems (ESD) at MIT are making significantly more than the guys getting masters' degrees in EECS or ME, as can be seen in p. 17 of the following pdf (although, to be fair, that's usually because the guys getting ESD degrees have significant prior work experience). But the point is, I don't see any a-priori reason why people wouldn't want to get these degrees. Seems to me that these guys getting "business-oriented" engineering degrees do very well for themselves. </p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation06.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/CDC/surveys/0405/engineering.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/dept/CDC/surveys/0405/engineering.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Secondly, the truth is, it often times doesn't really matter all that much which specific eng degree you get. Think of it this way. 10 years after you graduate, nobody is going to care whether you have a "Engineering Systems" degree rather than an EECS degree. At that point in your career, all that's going to matter is the quality of your work. </p>

<p>Heck, it may not even matter even in the short-term. The truth is, when we're talking about MIT or Stanford, much of the real value of the degree is wrapped up in the name brand of the school, the networking, and the recruiting. I know a LOT of people who got engineering graduate degrees at MIT and then ended up taking jobs in management consulting or investment banking. In fact, for quite a few of them, going to MIT was simply their way to get facetime access to banking and consulting recruiters. The same thing happens at Stanford. At both schools, it doesn't really matter what you are studying, so a lot of people will attend one of the 'easier' engineering programs just to get that recruiting access.</p>

11

<p>A lot of the assumptions are based on what program the OP wants to go into. If it's business or ibanking sure - gpa can be low - but he will need work experience to get into the management programs. If it's just a regular MS or PhD straight from BS, then the gpa will matter and will need to be closer to the 3.7-3.8 figure I quoted.</p>

12

<p>Do most people who go on to graduate school spend time working for a couple years before applying?</p>

13

<p>If the focus is business, then yes.</p>

14

<p>how about engineering?</p>

15

<p>About 2/3rds go straight 1/3 work for a bit - at least for straight engineering grad school.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
If it's business or ibanking sure - gpa can be low - but he will need work experience to get into the management programs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Depends on which management program. For example, the Stanford Management Science & Engineering program does not require work experience. I'm sure it helps, but the FAQ specifically states that you don't need it, and I doubt that strong work experience will help you compensate much for a lower GPA, which is what you seem to be implying. </p>

<p>"Is work experience required for admission to the MS program? No. "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/admissions/admitfaq.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/admissions/admitfaq.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Similarly, if we're talking about the Engineering Systems (ESD) program at MIT, again, I am not aware of any work experience requirement. Again, I'm sure it helps, and plenty of applicants have it (which is why many ESD grads get paid so well). But you don't really need it. </p>

<p><a href="http://esd.mit.edu/academic/sm_phd_faqs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://esd.mit.edu/academic/sm_phd_faqs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

17

<p>
[quote]
although they clearly have strong professional rec's

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I was just basing that off this line you said. The gpa point remains then. Remember, low is a 3.6, and just as you can guarantee that the MIT LFM is 3.56 I can guarantee that the average ME admit GPA(which is still the OP's major) is 3.7+ for at least one of the top 3 programs.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
I was just basing that off this line you said.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They need strong professional rec's only because they probably don't have strong academic rec's, for the simple reason that it's not exactly easy to get strong academic rec's when you've been out of school for several years. After you've been out for awhile, it's hard to find profs who even remember who you are.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
I can guarantee that the average ME admit GPA(which is still the OP's major) is 3.7+ for at least one of the top 3 programs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I fail to see how this is necessarily relevant. Nowhere does it say that just because you major in ME as an undergrad that you necessarily have to get a ME grad degree if you decide to go to grad school. Plenty of people switch to a different discipline in graduate school.</p>

20

<p>And other than business degrees, most of these other sciencey programs (ChemE, Civ E, EE, CS, ME) have the higher gpa requirements. I don't understand the argument. You're talking about one type of grad program, I'm talking about another. The point is that the 3.0 minimum isn't very likely to get a student into either, and that a 3.5 or higher is necessary for a good shot for the very top schools.</p>