<p>I've noticed some threads that speak to grades - often how student one got A's in high school and now is pulling B's and C's. Or how study time is hugely increased in college.</p>
<p>So what do you think the situation really is? Is college that much harder? Were they just given more room to slack in High School? Do study habits make a big difference? Maybe some are even doing better in college than in high school ...</p>
<p>What is the situation for your child? </p>
<p>My D had all A's in high school, but studied very, very hard to get them. She is stringent with her self and has very organized methods and habits to studying. She so far, it seems is doing pretty much all A's work in college for the first quarter - but again, is very disciplined in getting her work done, seeking out questions to be answered etc. Surely it's just the first quarter, and things may change.</p>
<p>A lot depends on which high school and which college -- and on the maturity of the student.</p>
<p>My son, a college senior, has a higher GPA in college than he did in high school. Partly, this is because he is at a state university where his entering credentials were above average, though not high enough to qualify for the honors program. (As he ever-so-tactfully puts it, "At least half the people here are drunken idiots.") Partly, it is because sometime around the beginning of his junior year of college, he finally decided to take school seriously. He is working harder now (and, I think, procrastinating less) than he did in high school and the early part of college. I think maturity kicked in at exactly the right time for him.</p>
<p>My daughter is a first-semester freshman at a highly selective private university known for its academic pressure. She came from an IB high school program also known for its academic pressure. So far, her grades are slightly but not drastically lower than in high school, but it's early days yet. A lot of kids at her college are struggling far more with grades than she is. I think that her IB background is an enormous advantage. She was doing college-level work in high school, and that makes a difference. And she has the maturity to keep up with the work at college, not trying to leave everything to the last minute.</p>
<p>Yes, Yes, Yes, & Yes. (All generalities of course, since Thomas Jefferson HS is bound to be more difficult than Podunk College.)</p>
<p>Another way to think about it: College A has a class of matriculants of which 99% were in the top 10% of thier HS class. By definition, 49.99% of those matriculants will end up in the bottom half of their college class.</p>
<p>It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. The type of work is different, the expectations are different, the class set-ups are different. Is a college class with two papers during the term less work than a high school class with reading and homework assignments every day and papers every other week? Probably. Does it require fewer hours per week? Maybe, maybe not. Is it easier? Well, sure, in many ways, but would your high school final paper get the same grade as your college paper? I sure as hell hope not. I guess college is harder in that it requires a higher level of work, but "harder" as a term is pretty difficult to work with.</p>
<p>EDIT:
Bluebayou, remember that very few college students have GPAs < 2.0, in general. Many, many high school students do. So, yeah, there's a bottom half of the college class, but at some colleges those students are still pulling a 3.0, which is a perfectly respectable GPA.</p>
<p>I went to a New England prep school that sends 100% of students to four year colleges, so I guess that means it's "competitive." I didn't care all that much about grades, and my GPA was high but not like some people on CC (of course, they didn't weight grades, either). I'm now at the University of Chicago. My GPA is a little lower, but my grades seem about the same--I'm differentiating because high school GPAs have lots of classes factored in for all four years, including significantly easier freshman classes, art, computer science, and stuff like that. My college GPA is based on fewer data points. In terms of my tougher high school courses and my college courses, I'd say my grades are quite similar, with the exception that my As in U of C core reading/writing courses were significantly tougher to get than my As in high school English. By the way, I was known as a slacker in high school because I didn't work that hard or care that much. I don't get stressed out about my work, sometimes I skip assignments or readings, but I'm organized and I do get most of my work done in the end (and all of my important work).</p>
<p>I think it depends on the courses the student takes in high school (AP?), the actual rigor of those courses (not all are created equally, difficulty-wise) and how much studying the student does in college vs. high school. </p>
<p>My sons took APs in high school that they received A's and B's in. Some of those, were they to repeat the same class in college, would have garnered A's and B's again (those were the courses they got 5's in). There were others that they received A's and B's in, that they'd get C's or worse in, in college (those were the ones they got 3's and 4's in). This is assuming the same amount of effort/quality of work.</p>
<p>It depends on the instructor, the expectations, the purpose of the class. And in college, you have to ask- Is it a weed out class? In that case, all bets are off; they're trying to flunk a certain percentage. (Check out the UF Calculus I thread... hmmmm)</p>
<p>corranged- you hit the nail on the head. College is different. The scheduling, the erratic hours, the total independence, the expectation that if you're having problems you take care of it yourself (form a study group, get a tutor, study more...), the additional concerns (taking care of financial matters, nursing yourself when you get sick, doing your own cooking, laundry, errands...). Add to that, that mom and dad aren't there to pick up the slack when times are tough. </p>
<p>That is the great thing about college, though. You finally grow up! Yay!</p>
<p>Colleges vary a lot regarding academic rigor and demands. There is no consistent scenario that fits all kids at all colleges. It always seems strange to me that we want our kids to go to a "good" college - one that is selective, demanding and challenging. Then we expect them to get A's. Sorry, but that is not demanding or challenging. My D is into her third year and I can say I am getting my money's worth in rigor and challenge. She has learned a lot and worked very hard for her A's, B's, and especially her C's. In the long run those courses where she struggled to get C's may be those that are most valuable.</p>
<p>My husband tells stories of his friends at the large state school he went to (Michigan State) coming home from difficult engineering classes and being thrilled beyond words when they came home with a 66% on a test...! </p>
<p>These were the same students who came into college with nary anything but A's on their HS report cards!</p>
<p>It also depends on major. Computer Science and engineering courses at a highly ranked college that doesn't practice any type of grade inflation can be an awakening.</p>
<p>edit - cross-posted with abasket - same message though</p>
<p>It depends on so many factors but I can tell you that I never put in the same amount of time studying in college as my DDs are doing right now w/ 3 APs, advanced Spanish and high level math. Maybe it's because my memories have faded or maybe it was that my major was embarrassingly easy. But, I do know that they are spending 4 to 6 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week studying and I can't help but think that this is preparing them well for what they will be doing in college.</p>
<p>College is, more than anything, a different beast. It's not necessarily that it's harder as it is faster. There are fewer hours of class time, everything is compressed into a semester, and the professors - even the ones who care - don't bother catering to slowest person in the class like a HS teacher might.</p>
<p>Good examples: My HS AP Calc (AB) class was a year long. We met for about 49 minutes three days a week, and then 90 minutes on either Thursday or Friday. So that's 4 hours a week. In contrast, my freshman Calc I class covered the exact same material in a semester with only 3 hours a week of classroom instruction. And there were honors sections of the class which covered almost all of Calc BC in a semester.</p>
<p>My HS sophomore chemistry class represented an even more pronounced scenario - the entire year of that class was covered in the first 7 weeks of my college chemistry course...if that.</p>
<p>That's really what makes it more "difficult". It's not so much the concepts as the volume. The exact same thing was the hallmark of transition from college to medical school. So the problem becomes how do you manage the amount of the material rather than how well can I know EVERYTHING about these few things.</p>
<p>Along the lines of what Bigredmed said, the science tests in college often cover 3-5 chapters while my high school tests covered 1 chapter at a time. This is one of the reasons why I think it is always a good idea to take your first college science class in a subject you have already taken in high school. IMO, doing this aids in the adjustment process between high school and college science classes.</p>
<p>"A lot depends on which high school and which college -- and on the maturity of the student."</p>
<p>" It's not necessarily that it's harder as it is faster."</p>
<p>"the professors - even the ones who care - don't bother catering to slowest person in the class like a HS teacher might."</p>
<p>"Colleges vary a lot regarding academic rigor and demands. There is no consistent scenario that fits all kids at all colleges."</p>
<p>"It's almost like comparing apples and oranges. The type of work is different, the expectations are different, the class set-ups are different."</p>
<p>Above all, time management skills determine success, especially in the first semester. Some kids are better prepared for this than others. If the kids have to learn time management from scratch (public schools in particular like to keep their students on a tight, controlled schedule), then college may seem inordinately difficult at first. Others may find college easier since they spend less time in class and have fewer "busywork" assignments.</p>
<p>My intro econ course in college covers much, much more than an AP Econ course in high school. Basically, the intro macro course at my school starts with about a week of micro as set-up which, according to my friends who took econ in high school, was about equal to everything they covered in their high school courses. Following up on the college vs. college issue, my professor said on the first day (when trying to scare students, I'm sure) that he was recently comparing syllabi with some friends of his who are professors at other top schools, and he found that most colleges cover 11-13 chapters of material in the semester. He then said that his class, on a quarter system (so a short 10 week term), will cover 20 chapters. So there's definitely the issue that colleges classes can move very quickly and cover a lot of material in a short time period. Good point, Bigredmed. ...The University of Chicago is sort of econ-crazy, so I'm sure that's why they make the intro econ courses so comprehensive.</p>
<p>Some, like my D, actually do better in college, and love the more challenging material. For some, the existence of more challenging options in college allows the cream to really rise. </p>
<p>In HS, these same kids can be constrained by both the nature of the system and the nature of HS course work, which is heavy on formulaic approaches and rote and light on thought/analysis. For instance, in most HS, one can't progress faster than the standard timetables. And the highest level offerings are limited. Good colleges, OTOH, have few rules that they won't ignore when convenient. Course prerequisites? for guidance only. Undergrads in grad courses? Sure if they want to and are ready. No course covers the desired material? What about independent study? And so on.</p>
<p>My S is doing about the same so far but again it's early (freshman). He went to a rigorous pulbic HS sending over 80% to college..was in the top quartile and went to a college where statistically he was in the upper top quartile of the entering class so I assumed he would either do the same or slightly better and that's how it is playing out....so far.</p>
<p>I heard some great advice a couple years ago which I shared with my son. Someone said that students should start off with a writing class so they will know what the professors want when doing essays and reports.</p>
<p>Many colleges do require a writing course that is usually taken first or second semester. My son was planning on doing his first semester, but got shut out of the topics he thought were more interesting, so he decided to wait. He is taking a history course and so far his writing seems to be up to snuff.</p>
<p>a lot of it also depends on the type of classes. My freshman year I did alright, my sophmore year I did a lot worse, my junior year I did alright again (but not as good as freshman year), and my senior year I did awesome. </p>
<p>Freshman year I thought was fairly easy and a lot of it felt like a repeat of high school, until I got a D in accounting (due to the prof). I had mostly A's with a B here and there. Sophmore year was a lot of entry level to your major type courses and I had a lot of very reading intensive courses where the tests were multiple choice and things like that and I am horrible at those type of tests - probably because I'm horrible at reading comprehension. My problem on those questions is I just miss the point of what it's asking and I screw up left and right. If it was an essay test on the same material, I would nail it. I remember one time in elementary school after taking one of those comprehension tests at school I got called down to the reading resource room (It's funny that I still remember what it's called) because my answers were all over the place. They had me read a story and then they asked me questions about it and I nailed them all. I just suck at reading the question and picking the correct answer out on multiple choice for some reason. I also had a lot of classes I hated, not that that's an excuse, but I had micro and macro and hated econ, Business statistics was a nightmare, etc. I think I had a few A's, a few B's, and a bunch of C's. Junior year was much bigger on projects and papers and group work and stuff like that and the tests were more essays as opposed to multiple guess. Wound up with mostly A's and B's and maybe one or two C's. My senior year was full of capstone projects and things of that nature and I wound up with almost all A's and one or two B's.</p>
<p>It's funny that I could get a C's in a lot of the 'entry level' courses to my major (those multiple choice classes), and then take the capstone courses and walk out of there with A's - in courses that very very very few people ever get an A in. I think I view it as earlier courses taught you the concepts and the later courses taught you the understanding and how well you could apply the concepts to actual work and things of that nature.</p>